Should wanda be nerfed?

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i could lost a 1k wold with wanda because i didnt played her for a while, 3 deaths in few time: 1 because i step on spiderwebs in the maze and im used to dont use armor that much, glad i have meat effigies in the cave entrance; 2nd and 3rd were very close to each other... i was just walking and forgot to check the clock twice xD 

Sk-k--k-i-i-i-ll chhh-h-h-e-u

Spoiler

Skill issue.....

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Sk-k--k-i-i-i-ll chhh-h-h-e-u

  Hide contents

Skill issue.....

 

ofc, that wouldnt happend if i didnt stop playing her for a while but needing that practise just shows how hard is for non X000k hours players

 

[KeshS]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Why would Wanda be restricted to only use touch stone or revive by others?  Why would she be locked out of meat effigies, LGA's, or second chance?

Because people keep saying she is a glass cannon. You can say anytime she is not, and this argument is over.

I read everything, and scenarios aren't specifically bad for Wanda, they are bad for any charachter. Regardless of what revive item you use. It still sounds silly that a glass cannon can retry without really losing anything. It's like playing Wes with insane dps, I doubt he will count as a glass cannon.

[Cloakingsumo198]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

ofc, that wouldnt happend if i didnt stop playing her for a while but needing that practise just shows how hard is for non X000k hours players

 

More like the definition of carelessness. Good. Wanda should be punished for not playing safe, when you wanna call yourself glass, just remember Maxwell actually exists.

[abrocator]

59 minutes ago, KeshS said:

A good example for definitive weakness is Wickerbottom, you can't sleep no matter what you do, and not a single late game item will help (memedrake doesn't count).

The only downside to that is that you can’t sleep under the Winter’s Feast Tree.  (Or at least I assume that you can’t.)

Wickerbottom has no real downsides.

[Cloakingsumo198]

I changed my mind. 

Spoiler

I want Wanda destroyed and shot to orbit.

Jk. I just can't stand this glass Cannon argument for Wanda.

She ain't glass it's just plain and simple.

She has Wilson HP

She isn't forced into being old and frail like Maxwell

She can make multiple ageless watches for healing

She doesn't lose max HP like others

She has an increased ranged melee weapon that's viable in every form

Night armor exists and even compliments with her perks.

 

I don't care if you enjoy Wanda or think she's weak. But admit that she isn't "FORCED" into this "Glass" cannon style that everyone tries to advertise.

She isn't in constant danger like Maxwell is enless the player chooses to be wreckless.

So I'd like to see her max HP lowered to really make her feel like glass, make these individuals EARN that "Glass Cannon" name or make her old form have more "annoyances" like a speed debuff, or blurry vision, or other OLD people problems so that Wanda main's can feel a tedious hell when maintaining their strongest form. Like some other top tier damage dealer I know.

All this because I'm EVIL, GO AHEAD AND STOP ME, BUT I AIN'T LYING ANYWHERE HERE.

Spoiler

I want Wanda mains to really, really be like paper-mache so that when I hear them call themselves fragile, it's actually believable.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, KeshS said:

Because people keep saying she is a glass cannon. You can say anytime she is not, and this argument is over.

I read everything, and scenarios aren't specifically bad for Wanda, they are bad for any charachter. Regardless of what revive item you use. It still sounds silly that a glass cannon can retry without really losing anything. It's like playing Wes with insane dps, I doubt he will count as a glass cannon.

I don't think restricting revive options reinforces glass cannon play style.  If you die, you die.  The penalties of that are usually that you've failed at whatever you're doing.  The boss will reset, resources were used up, time lost, and you've got to regroup.  Maybe in multiplayer the boss isn't lost - but that's multiplayer, anyone dying in multiplayer means less.

I don't see why dying should be worse for wanda than anyone else - the second chance watch isn't the miracle res item many people make it out to be because if my friend dies by walking over a sea anenemy and I use my second chance watch on them they're just going to die instantly and be right back as a ghost again XD (I've done this, it was funny, for me, not for them, they had to come all the way back to get a telltale revive)

[Lil K]

Klei shouldn't rework Wanda because she is Fun. 

[abrocator]

26 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wigfrid and Wurt both have plenty of healing and sanity restoring dishes available for them.  The veg menu was also expanded recently with leafy meats making up for what advantage meat dishes used to have over them.

I don’t get this part. The veg menu wasn’t expanded with leafy meat since leafy meat counts as meat. So Wigfrid got a sanity dish while Wurt didn’t get anything.

Meat-based dishes are still much better than veggie ones, overall.

[Mike23Ua]

22 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I changed my mind. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I want Wanda destroyed and shot to orbit.

Jk. I just can't stand this glass Cannon argument for Wanda.

She ain't glass it's just plain and simple.

She has Wilson HP

She isn't forced into being old and frail like Maxwell

She can make multiple ageless watches for healing

She doesn't lose max HP like others

She has an increased ranged melee weapon that's viable in every form

Night armor exists and even compliments with her perks.

Honestly I feel like Wanda is considered a Glass Canon because of a suggestion I made: when the Klei dev team first released Wendy’s rework and lower HP = More Damage was liked but wasn’t fitting of Wendy.. I suggested they keep the mechanic and apply it to another character: The character I had in mind was-

Spoiler

Assuming she ever becomes unlockable like Maxwell was on the original DS, It made Sense to be on CHARLIE because the Darkness inside of her would be fighting extra hard to keep its hosts body alive (similar to my favorite smite god Izanami who deals more damage the closer to death she is)

Thus when in Good Health Charlie would have the powers of Kindness and good (using her magic to turn flowers good, or Beardling back to rabbits etc..) and in Bad Health she’s like full on Darkness doing all bad things (flowers to dark petal, rabbit to Beardling etc..) exactly as we see her doing in the starting animation of the game before both sides merge to settle on a middle ground.

(or in Smite terms Combining Izanami’s low health= high Damage, with Hel’s Light/Dark Stances..)

Unfortunately this mechanic was instead put on Wanda a character who already had a TON of things going for her: Teleportation, free revives for teammates & from clocks on Cooldown timers etc..

And the mechanic I suggested when not used where I hoped it would have been.. just pushed her over the top.

But that’s MY opinion.. and people seem to love Wanda so Whatever..

Im only truly upset that the character I wanted the mechanic used on May never become playable now at all because Wanda exists.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, abrocator said:

I don’t get this part. The veg menu wasn’t expanded with leafy meat since leafy meat counts as meat. So Wigfrid got a sanity dish while Wurt didn’t get anything.

Meat-based dishes are still much better than veggie ones, overall.

You're right - Leafy meats count as meats, I had that wrong.  When I played Wurt it was all kelp, stone fruits, cactus, and gardening for potatos / tomas, so I guess I mispoke about that.  For crock pot foods it looks like meat is still king - although we can't undervalue the raw ingredients I listed there.  Playing Warly I really miss controlling my sanity with some green caps and cactus, or healing with potatos and tomas.

[KeshS]

32 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I don't think restricting revive options reinforces glass cannon play style.  If you die, you die.  The penalties of that are usually that you've failed at whatever you're doing.  The boss will reset, resources were used up, time lost, and you've got to regroup.  Maybe in multiplayer the boss isn't lost - but that's multiplayer, anyone dying in multiplayer means less.

I don't see why dying should be worse for wanda than anyone else - the second chance watch isn't the miracle res item many people make it out to be because if my friend dies by walking over a sea anenemy and I use my second chance watch on them they're just going to die instantly and be right back as a ghost again XD (I've done this, it was funny, for me, not for them, they had to come all the way back to get a telltale revive)

Or you know have a great downside. Moreover no one forces anyone to play on the edge constantly. Like in the example:

Walter gets no sanity drain, but when he gets hit, his sanity drains starts racking up every time he gets hurt. Therefore Walter gets punished for taking damage.

Wanda gets stronger when she has little hp. Wanda gets hit, Wanda dies, Wanda revives. She tries again. Therefore ?????

[abrocator]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

[snip]

I have never had a raw hunger problem as Wurt in my world due to her 33% perk.  But on the other hand I didn’t feel comfortable with my food situation until I got stone fruits and figs so that I could make the great veggie dish Figatoni (only drawback is the spoilage time).  Prior to that I had to make subpar crockpot foods like fistful of jam and ratatouille if I wanted to venture out from base (due to the spoilage time).  Meanwhile all the combat meat either got turned into eggs for filler, rot, or bundled for my future stint as helmet-maker and Klaus-killer Wigfrid.

 

[Waynel]

I notice that people are confusing the survival aspect of this game with killing raid bosses.

Survival in dst is EASY for any EXPERIENCED player REGARDLESS of the character pick. You should remember that survival consists in things like: making a hound tooth trap field, crafting a thermal stone and lighting a tree on fire, setting up crockpots, building bee boxes, making an endothermic fire pit, etc., tasks that either do not involve direct combat or make it barely necessary!

And for the few situations those that do involve it, let’s be honest, killing small mobs is not a struggle for a skilled dst player. One will make quick work of shadow creatures whether one plays as Wilson or Wanda. As for early silk, kiting 3 spiders at a time with a fresh hambat is not that hard either.

 

But let’s assume there might be a form of imbalance between Wolfgang/Wanda and the rest of the crew from a beginner pov, “because these two are stronger at direct combat”.
Well then ask yourself: does direct combat play a big role in survival ? You will quickly notice that it doesn’t.

At most, a beginner will have to fight the first few hound waves with a spear and a logsuit (or let pigs/beefalos get their agro), but he/she will then proceed to make tooth traps to deal with the more late game hound waves. If they need silk, they can make basic traps. If they are incapable of dealing with shadow creatures, they can eat cooked cactus.

Conclusion : direct combat is not that vital as far as SURVIVAL goes.

(If we’re talking about survival it would be more relevant to mention Wendy, who can make life easier for new players because Abigail will help them deal with early spiders and hounds.)

 

“what about killing raid bosses tho ? It’s part of the game! Playing Wolfgang/Wanda makes it much easier, a cakewalk compared to other chars !”

 

Let’s go back to the average player who wants to move on from “SURVIVAL” to “BEATING THE GAME” and kill the dragonfly.
A Wilson can facetank df with 3 marble suits 6 football helmets 5 6 bluecaps and a hambat. With Wolfgang/Wanda, one would only need 2 marble suits coupled with 3-4 football helmets (and 4 AW for Wanda).
Is there a significant difference in terms of resources spent for the fight ? No. 1x dmg mod didn’t put Wilson at a huge disadvantage. True, unlike Wolfgang, Wilson harvested some blue caps and mined 2 additional harp statues and pig heads for armor. But Wolfgang had to acquire the necessary mats for a gym, and Wanda had to raid the ruins/archives for her watches and clock.

As for experienced players, they will either tank or kite. If they chose kiting, the discrepancy between the amount of gear needed will be even less noticeable (1 3 helmets for a Wolfgang and 2 4 for a Wilson as far as kiting df goes).
Plus, if you’re an advanced player, farming pig skin/marble/thulecite shouldn’t be an issue for you, so it’s not like you can’t repeat those fights over and over again as Wilson or any other char with 1x dmg mod.

 

So really, people should stop making a big fuss over Wanda/Wolfgang just because they can deal twice as much dmg as a char with 1x dmg mod.

Don’t claim it makes survival a lot easier, that’s ridiculous. They have a slight advantage in terms of fighting bosses and terrorbeaks, that’s all.

[Yuuko]

25 minutes ago, KeshS said:

Or you know have a great downside. Moreover no one forces anyone to play on the edge constantly. Like in the example:

Walter gets no sanity drain, but when he gets hit, his sanity drains starts racking up every time he gets hurt. Therefore Walter gets punished for taking damage.

Wanda gets hit, Wanda dies, Wanda revives. Wanda tries again. Therefore ?????

You want to punish her harder than what dying normally punishes a character...  I guess I just don't agree.  I don't see why you'd want to do that, or how this relates to being a glass cannon character in any way.  If you don't think death is a penalty with Wanda, then death wouldn't be a penalty for any character in which case, why does it matter if its not a penalty for her?  Anyone can carry an LGA and res right where they died.

I think dying is a penalty though - Its not likely you'll keep a boss fight going unless you're with a group so you'll have to start over.  You might lose important durability on equipment, and other resources are burned like the cost of scw, lga, or meat effigy.  It breaks the tempo you had going in general.  I hate dying, and do a lot to avoid it.  It still happens, and I deal with it - Wanda didn't change, or even improve that at all in my experience.

22 minutes ago, abrocator said:

I have never had a raw hunger problem as Wurt in my world due to her 33% perk.  But on the other hand I didn’t feel comfortable with my food situation until I got stone fruits and figs so that I could make the great veggie dish Figatoni (only drawback is the spoilage time).  Prior to that I had to make subpar crockpot foods like fistful of jam and ratatouille if I wanted to venture out from base (due to the spoilage time).  Meanwhile all the combat meat either got turned into eggs for filler, rot, or bundled for my future stint as helmet-maker and Klaus-killer Wigfrid.

 

yeah idk - I usually use kelps as pocket food since they have a decent shelf life, at least they regrow before they spoil XD  You can easily get a load of them going with an early visit to lunar island.  You can fit all of them in 1 tile for easy harvesting, they grow year round and don't wither / smolder in summer.  Very reliable crops for Wurt.  Besides that I get the stone fruits while I'm on the lunar island and usually stock pile those as backup foods, or use them as a source of rots.  A garden isn't a high priority so just stuffing random seeds in 2x 16 plot squares usually gets me the potatos and tomas I need for heal spamming in fights, and once I get a few of those its easy to run 2 squares of them autumn / spring.  Dragon fruits are a good spring / summer grow too, with more tomas.  She also gets a lot out of gardening b/c she feeds merms vegies to make them work.  With Warly I'm always looking at stacks of rot each harvest... lol

I guess I just didn't notice I never used my crock pot now that you mention it XD  I guess I'd say she does well without one, although I think its odd that leafy meats is a meat...

[ethannnnnnn]

She's not OP, and she's not perfectly designed. But she's a character that rewards skill, which I believe is very close to perfect game design. The better you are as a player, the better you are with Wanda. She allows you to maximize the strengths where most characters would be weak (damage output & time mitigation via portals) The difference between her and pre-refresh wolf -- other than the obvious ones of course -- is that Wolfgang handed you all of his benefits on a silver platter, whereas Wanda makes you work for all of her benefits on top of being unique.

I think people who find her OP are not used to Klei designing their characters as well as they have Wanda. She has a very healthy state of equilibrium whereas a character like Wolfgang or Walter does not. Her design is so much starkly better than most other characters (imo) that she appears broken in comparison.

[Kemthazul]

Make her age decay twice as fast when struck, then we can talk more about the "glass cannon" role she's supposed(?) to have.

She's the opposite of Walter sure, but they are two sides of the same coin. There is a lot going on with both kits, but Wanda's actually very strong. And just cause of her being a shadow magic/time magic user, one can basically hand-wave all these somewhat discordant parts (revive, teleport, wormhole, a yoyo that hits like a truck YES alarming clock is a yoyo and you can't convince me otherwise) into "ooooh she has time powers of course she can do that". Walter is much more grounded to reality which makes him much more open to criticism with how all over the place his kit is despite being a boy scout with a ton of badges.

[Atkvin]

22 minutes ago, ethannnnnnn said:

She's not OP, and she's not perfectly designed. But she's a character that rewards skill, which I believe is very close to perfect game design

I agree with this. Her mechanics lend into each other to encourage risky and skillful gameplay - her ticking health meter grants her strength the lower it is, and cannot be healed by any faster conventional sources including ally Wortoxes - but this is offset by easier kiting tools, a weapon that gives her some safe distance from the enemy, a reviving item that softens the blow of death slightly, and a gtfo button. Without these pros and cons, she either wouldn't measure up to the other combat-focused characters or could make them obsolete.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I want Wanda mains to really, really be like paper-mache so that when I hear them call themselves fragile, it's actually believable.

and some people wanted wolfgang's speed removed and here you are xD

[Cloakingsumo198]

5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and some people wanted wolfgang's speed removed and here you are xD

Eye for an eye.

Maxwell is glass, Walter is punishing.

Wanda in comparison isn't.

 

Wolfgang has mechanical flaws that needs to be addressed and polishing in his still new rework.

Wanda doesn't. Wanda has been out for awhile now, all of her perks work together seamlessly and clearly got alot of attention when being created.

Worst part is for such a strong character where the only argument for her strength is being a "glass Cannon" that is "punishing", she is alot less punishing and glass like than other characters who are far weaker design wise.

I'm fine with Wanda existing, I'm not fine when others give her a free pass to exist without addressing the issues her existence creates.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Eye for an eye.

Maxwell is glass, Walter is punishing.

Wanda in comparison isn't.

I actually agree with you, and not because I want to see someone else’s main murdered.. but because I play other games where class canon truly means Glass Canon, In Smite when at low Health Izanami deals more damage, but the risk to playing at low damage is very high.. and that’s not a feeling I EVER get with Wanda because her healing & Self reviving are God Tier..

Shes really really good, and anyone denying that just wants her to remain to be really really good.. but she’s certainly no Glass Canon- In Fact Maxwell would probably be considered more of a Glass Canon then her: Lower overall Health, easily killed.. etc.

Im not advocating for Nerfs to Wanda (but if she got any they should be based on making her more unique and fun rather then just being some boring damage numbers or longer cooldown timers) 

All I’m saying is she’s no Glass Canon. She’s good, she’s really good.. but Glass Canon? Haha not even close.

I never feel in any real danger as Wanda, ESPECIALLY when playing with other players, because in Addition to second chance clocks to revive other players with, she doesn’t suffer the health point lost when creating telltale hearts..

This is crucially important because I’ve actually managed to DIE many many times as -insert any other character here- having to constantly damage my own health to make telltale hearts to revive my Newbie friends.. and at a certain health threshold: You can’t even craft them Anymore.

Wanda completely ignores this core part of the game and in addition to the free cooldown healing she does: Is also the best character in the entire game to crank out Telltale Hearts in bulk supply with.

Glass Canon? No.. Risk vs Reward? Maybe to a certain degree..

Fun to play as anyway? Totally.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Wanda is risk vs reward for sure but it's all optional.

Glass Cannon alone? No. She's far more than that. She's also extremely versatile and supportive in most situations without being forced into a "glass" state always.

[Mysterious box]

7 hours ago, Owlrus said:

She's a high-skill character, naturally she's going to be stronger than most other characters when used "properly". Truth is she's not easy to play. Strong for veterans, but anyone else would have a tremendously hard time managing her age, crafting her equipment, and fighting properly in her old form with the Alarming Clock. "High skill" should equal "high reward" if you play well.

The thing is surviving as her isn't hard for lower skilled players due to always having healing on her even if it needs a cooldown and while it's true getting her higher tier gear can be hard for a new player even lower skilled players are and have raided the achieves which is not only quite safe but the only real hurtle a player faces when crafting her clocks. Finally while fighting in old age is something that's not easy at all for less skilled players there's nothing saying you have to fight in old age to get benefits from her kit yes she's stronger in old age but she still packs more of a punch than most outside of old age as well. 

[marioespinho]

3 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

or other OLD people problems so that Wanda main's can feel a tedious hell when maintaining their strongest form

Hear me out, i have a great idea to re-rework Wanda to fit this idea.

 

How about a placeable crafting station where you need to watch and play an animation for like 1/2 minutes to fill an aging meter? or craft consumable clocks that can be thrown at mobs and fill said meter?

Great idea, yes?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, marioespinho said:

need to watch and play an animation for like 1/2 minutes

you might be really bad at the minigame :P