Why does this character need a refresh next?

[Grim the]

This week, following the Webber refresh, I’ve seen quite a few people saying Maxwell needs a refresh, and should be after WX, if not before.

This confuses me, since in my eyes, aside from the duelists, he’s already a balanced and fun character. So, fellow forumites, why do you think Maxwell does or does not need a refresh?

[BezKa]

Maxwell deserves a bit of story progression imo. Now that moon is so involved, his shadow influenced person might make a bigger appearance. 

Idk, it just feels like Ex King of The World might be bothered and try to do something with the fact the Moon is waging war on his previous captors. Whether it be try to use moon magic in some way or suffer repercussions of being the ruler for so long. Maybe there's potential. 

And obv a fix for his clones. 

[SkyistheGround]

i do think maxwell needs a refresh. i'm just not sure if i think he needs it as badly as other characters

he doesn't suffer from the problem wx and wolfgang do, where they take items from the team more than they give (ESPECIALLY wx). maxwell is pretty good at supplying the team with resources (most notably to me, wood, we end up needing a lot of it for many builds)

i think his playstyle just needs to be shaken up, a breath of fresh air for the maxwell mains out there

[BoysenSyrup]

Grim I want more skins

[LinknAllie]

I personally feel Maxwell should be one of the last to be reworked.  I feel he doesn't need it desperately unlike some other characters (WX) who really need it.  He shouldn't be the last of the group to be reworked but definitely shouldn't be reworked this soon into the chain.

[minespatch]

Just now, LinknAllie said:

(WX) who really need it

WX and then Wolfgang. 

Wickerbottom and MAxwell will be tricky.

[LinknAllie]

Just now, minespatch said:

WX and then Wolfgang. 

Wickerbottom and MAxwell will be tricky.

Agreed.

[Guille6785]

he's not a bad character by any means, but being confined to the resource gatherer niche feels like a huge waste of potential with such a cool concept like summoning clones of yourself

I agree he shouldn't be one of the next few reworks, but I think his could have the biggest potential of all of them

[SkyistheGround]

Just now, minespatch said:

WX and then Wolfgang. 

Wickerbottom and MAxwell will be tricky.

everyone's always leaving wilson out of the rework conversation

i understand hes supposed to be basic and super noob-friendly but he deserves to be able to contribute to the team too (and access to the skins... please, not another $1-2k listing for GoH)

[minespatch]

Just now, SkyistheGround said:

i understand hes supposed to be basic and super noob-friendly

He's last due to him being the mascot. It's kind of like how the Chinese zodiac is in a cycle.

[Dextops]

its a cool concept of a nightmare master confined into resource gathering even though woodies niche is already that which i would much rather have maxwell changed a lot tho i know that won't happen just something to change him from resource gatherer to actual shadow master

[Szczuku]

Maxwell and Wilson (in that order) should be the last ones to receive the rework. 

It's just fitting that the original protagonist and antagonist receive their reworks last. Plus as some have stated Maxwell is quite balanced already and Wilson is just default (though I do hope he doesn't stay that way)

[minespatch]

Besides, WX and Wolfgang are the ones criticized in memes for being plunderers of items and necessities. They need the balance.

[SinancoTheBest]

I'm working under the assumption that all five remaining reworkless characters will get their reworks eventually; I think WX is the one in most dire need of one for his gameplay being boring, uninspired, and unbalanced but he requires a complete overhaul in my eyes rather than the type of add-on reworks some characters like Wigfrid or Webber have been getting. If Klei isn't ready to deliver such a big overhaul, then I see Maxwell as the next best candidate for a refresh, who could use some nice tweaks and updates without remodeling the entire core of the character to reach greatness.

Mechanically, reworks tend to give companion focused characters much greater control over their companions- we saw that with Wendy, we saw that with Willow and we just saw that with Webber. In my opinion Maxwell could really use better control over his shadow minions especially since they are usually unruly and single minded in doing their given purpose. Don't get me wrong, his minions are very strong and make him the strongest gathering character but at the same time the limitations about his minions create various inconveniences at for every single type of clone at his disposal:

• Shadow Loggers - They lack controls to stop cutting or to target specific kind of trees- they will cut any and every tree. This is a big inconvenience when you don't want them to cut certain trees, especially in base. Sure, you can kill them but that ends up being wasteful. You want a tree for decoration- too bad it's gone. You want to wait for your trees to grow/keep some twiggy trees/not target baby trees... too bad, they are gone... More control, over them, akin to Webber's new toys disengaging his minions or deaggroing them, Wendy pacifying Abigail or the Action Queue Rb2 mod where you can make selections regarding what to cut would go a long way.
• Shadow Miners - Same problem, they have uncontrollable bloodlust against anything mineable. Makes basing with a Maxwell much harder because his shadow miners will proceed to destroy the marble trees before they grow to level 3  if he walks anywhere close. You don't want Glommer's Statue to look sad and broken? Too bad a Shadow Miner already destroyed it. They are great at sea, mining Salt and Seastacks you can't reach so you want them out. But if you wanna conserve a group of seastacks for seaweeds or don't want to immediately destroy the base of a Seaweed after killing it- boom, sorry time's up.
• Shadow Diggers - The only minions that don't overstep their boundaries- mostly because you don't usually have stumps you want to leave. They can still do something you don't want like digging a grave you wanted to keep undug. But the actual problem with them is that they have untapped potential with their shovels. Now I'm grateful to all things remotely holy that they don't dig up all the grass tufts, bushes and saplings in sight automatically unlike their harvest brothers but if you want them to do so, you should be able to command them as such; similarly commanding them to shovel up the weeds in a garden.
• Shadow Duelists - Now these are notoriously weak and for costing the most amount of sanity they provide the least amount of assistance. There is a lot that can be done to improve them - their sanity cost could be halved for starters, but to assume more control over them, Maxwell can be allowed to put them into stances like Relentless Attack, Kite, Retreat etc.
• More Shadow Clones: Especially with the latest series of updates, there are a lot more manual labour tasks that he can make his clones do. Rowing boats, Tilling the garden, Watering the soil, Hammering Giant crops and other desired objects, Digging the Turfs... There is no reason why his puppets should be limited to chopping, digging, mining and some mediocre sword swinging.
• Much more space for expansion; for the former king of the constant it surely seems rather pathetic that all he can do with the shadow powers is to make some harvesting clones. Klei often gets quite creative with these reworks beyond any of my imagination and I am quite excited to see what kind of designs can they make to add flavor to one of the most lore-heavy and interesting characters. His perk in Forge was quite nice for starters, adding him an attack assistance with many shadow puppets when he focuses on an enemy.

And lastly, reworks aren't just about the gameplay additions. They are like a crowning month for the character that is getting the rework. After being dethroned in the first game and getting cast aside, surely he can use some new spotlight. His classic four skins are to get woven versions, he'll get a new skin collection connected to his story (He currently has skins in 11 collections, standing at lower-average), there'll be Maxwell themed belongings, he'll get an animated short that will perhaps reveal more to us about his past life, the accident and his relation with Charlie. These are all exciting to me for any character but when it's the antagonist of the first game, it's quite exhilarating to think about the possibilities. 

In the end, if you ask me, WX needs a complete overhaul, Wolfgang needs some balancing and more interaction, Wickerbottom could use nice additions, Wilson should be given a small unique flavour but Maxwell... A refresh for Maxwell can, with keeping the core mechanics intact, improve his gameplay wonderfully. With the refresh precedence set by Klei over the many past refreshes, I think Maxwell has the potential to benefit the most and bloom as the castaway duke of shadows that just untapped into his shadow manipulation powers.

[Dr. Safety]

He lacks an end game, no? Plus his duelists are poo poo 

[minespatch]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

He lacks an end game, no? Plus his duelists are poo poo 

Maxwell is not stealing food and gears.

[Guille6785]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

He lacks an end game, no?

most characters don't have fantastic late game perks anyway if that's what you're talking about, in max's case he's still extremely good at gathering wood when bearger isn't an option, he can mine stone fruit without crashing the server and the miners are pretty helpful at sea so he's alright

[Dr. Safety]

8 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

most characters don't have fantastic late game perks anyway if that's what you're talking about, in max's case he's still extremely good at gathering wood when bearger isn't an option, he can mine stone fruit without crashing the server and the miners are pretty helpful at sea so he's alright

I suppose. I guess I just want him to have more magic potential, or unique interactions with some magic items. An idea I've had but have realized it might be too OP is keep the AI of his duelists the same, but make it so if Maxwell has a shadow armor and/or a dark sword equipped, his duelists will mimic the damage and resistance. This would only work with night armor and dark swords. Dark swords come pretty early for something so powerful, but you get the general idea in terms of unique interactions.

[rainman895]

Here's my idea for the duelists: they already take a lot of your max sanity but don't provide much damage; make them act like gestalts summoned from Enlightened Crown: when entering combat shadow duelists will disappear,  reappear and slash the opponent and then fade away; their damage should be around 50-60 rounding up Maxwell's DPS to potentially 186 per hit.

As for other perks: maybe Max could use nightmare fuel like Wortox uses his souls but for different purposes; also maybe he could upgrade his loggers, diggers and miners by giving them better tools?

I've seen people talk about Wilson in this thread
I think he doesn't need much: just more crafts involving his magnificient beard like a bed roll (something between regular one and a fur one) and something else. 

There's also a theme around Wilson that's been there since the Forge: they should make him a medic of sorts. Maybe add a beard telltale heart which doesnt penalize target's max health (or still does but not by 25%)? Also why not add a healing perk: he gains 25% more healing out of healing salves and honey poultices and he heals teammates with them also giving them 25% more health than usual.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Not a rework but a refresh adding QoL things like being able to stop workers or making duelist less niche would be cool

[Echsrick]

all this rework needs mostly is to give him his shadow sword and armour back as well as the purple gems he had and i guess better shadow fighters and maybe smart shadows that help better like they dont try to mine not full marble trees or new shadow workers like a hoe or something like that

[SkyistheGround]

9 hours ago, minespatch said:

Besides, WX and Wolfgang are the ones criticized in memes for being plunderers of items and necessities. They need the balance.

at least wolfgang can take down bosses slightly faster

wx may be hands down the best character for ruins rushing, but takes half of the gears with them while doing so 

[thegreatJash]

Maxwell could use a refresh, but WX needs it more.

[Wumpus the 19th]

Max's shadow clones are all pointed towards adding more hands on deck and doing manual work for the player. More control over these minions, of course, but also add more of them so you can basically run a base as a king over your land. One more thing i'd think is more interactivity. I don't know how apart from shadow creatures attacking you more often, but currently having more axes and pickaxes on hand at the cost of taking your max sanity doesn't matter too terribly much since he's so dang dapper and doesn't get into the negative effects of insanity with a few shadow minions. Something about him dealing with shadows more while his normal minions work, giving him more things he needs to focus on in exchange for minions that do the tedious work for him.

[DrMcGillacactus]

I personally want Maxwell to be the second last rework, just before Wilson.

He is one of the most important lore wise, and his abilities have ridiculous possibilities, he's got the codex umbra after all, and he knows a lot about the constant.

He should be thought out an extra amount then some others, as his rework would/could spike massive things for DST's lore. The lore is my second favorite part of the Don't Starve franchise.