[Poll] On Character Powerlevel Perceptions

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

whether or not the slingshot was supposed to be walter's main perk, in practice it's by far the least impactful of his upsides

and that is sad as the same level of maxwell duelist being niche. Having a perk/item that you never use is a waste desing wise

i dont want the slingshot to be a source of damage (it is already good for multiplayer) but it should be better at utility. The speed to freeze an enemy with the ice round, even having x2 freeze effect, is slower than a ice staff, for mention an example

[HowlVoid]

 

2 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

What? Not losing sanity from monsters' auras does not encourage staying away from the monster, it encourages the exact opposite.

Should of worded that better. What I means is engaging an enemy near them but not close enough to get hit by their melee attacks. You can slingshot deerclops without worrying about the proximity of the aurora and focus on being out his attack range.

[Guille6785]

5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and that is sad as the same level of maxwell duelist being niche. Having a perk/item that you never use is a waste desing wise

i dont want the slingshot to be a source of damage (it is already good for multiplayer) but it should be better at utility. The speed to freeze an enemy with the ice round, even having x2 freeze effect, is slower than a ice staff, for mention an example

and I'm all for buffing the slingshot since it's almost never useful as is, but I wish people would stop saying walter bad because slingshot bad

16 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Every character has infinite sanity due to food and every character has tons of inventory space due to bundles. I don't think I have ever wished for more inventory space past what hutch/chester and a backpack can already provide.

and walter isn't really an amazing late game character, but neither is the vast majority of the cast

just to name a few: all characters with combat abilities make little impact outside of hound attacks (when you're not close to a hound trap or a cave entrance) because there's extremely fast ways to farm bosses and you don't clear the ruins very often

wicker and winona's farms are almost all outclassed by fire farms which can be made by any character

everyone can farm wood/petrified trees quickly with bearger and blow stacks of stone fruit with gunpowder or weather pains

food can be mass produced with pig farms, volt goats, honey, frog rain, splumonkeys, even spiders

so there's only a few truly "impactful" late game perks, such as farming wood with slightly more flexibility (wicker, wurt and maxwell), not having to heat up at fires during winter (warly's chili salad), producing large batches of farm food at once to stockpile for later (wormwood, although his super cheap speed boost is a good reason to stay as him late game as it's a constant time saver), and a lot of these are still relatively niche

[ArubaroBeefalo]

40 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

not having to heat up at fires during winter (warly's chili salad)

why people always forget wurt :_

[Guille6785]

12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

why people always forget wurt :_

technically anyone can use sunfish lol

[Dextops]

6 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

technically anyone can use sunfish lol

but it only lasts a day in their inventory right? while in wurt it lasts like 4 so it works a lot better for her and if you have 3 you can switch them out 

[QuartzBeam]

12 minutes ago, Dextops said:

but it only lasts a day in their inventory right? while in wurt it lasts like 4 so it works a lot better for her and if you have 3 you can switch them out 

They last 1 day in your inventory, but they last 2 days if you put them in an Insulated Pack.

[ShadowDuelist]

Mostly what I mean is that Walter got designed around a ranged weapon only he can craft and use, with a lot of different ammunition to choose from that you will mostly never use, or better put, do much better in everything if you don’t use it. So what is the point of it?

Most perks make “something” of the game cheaper, faster or just more convenient. The slingshot does neither, and the uses are very niche and early game. And I didn’t say “Walter bad cause slingshot bad” I said comparatively that’s a weak aspect of his design, considering it’s one of the newest characters and half of what he does, doesn’t work as good as it could. Woby and his sanity are still great assets, but my point stands: why have perks that you will mostly never use?

[Dextops]

10 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

They last 1 day in your inventory, but they last 2 days if you put them in an Insulated Pack.

yeah but fish last longer in wurts inventory right?

[QuartzBeam]

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

yeah but fish last longer in wurts inventory right?

Yeah, they do. It's 4x in her inventory, which means she only needs 2 fish to swap between, whereas other characters need 6 fish (without insulated pack) or 4 fish (with insulated pack).

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

The whole character was balanced around the slingshot though.

The extra space is for extra rounds

The tent/campfire stories/gaining sanity under trees is due to his downside

Not losing sanity due to auroras is so the character is always out of melee range.

Yes, literally the whole character was balanced around being a range character gimmick. 

Every character has infinite sanity due to food and every character has tons of inventory space due to bundles. I don't think I have ever wished for more inventory space past what hutch/chester and a backpack can already provide. 

I don't feel the sanity aura is there to reinforced ranged combat.  I think its there to reinforce a playstyle of damage avoidance.  The quickest way to kill Deerclops (besides just picking Wolfgang lol) is to drop a firepit and tank her.  If you take your time and kite her the sanity aura starts to take its toll and a terror beak might harass you mid fight.  Walter doesn't have this worry, so he can safely kite out the fight and ace her without taking damage.

I think the slingshot is supposed to be a more utility aspect of his kit then a central point.  Its great for farming butterflies / birds / bunnys early game, controlling aggro of monsters, and lending some dps without distracting aggro control like with dfly, klaus, ect.  That's why his elemental shots are more effective then a staff.  But the slingshot never comes close to an effective dps weapon for ranged combat since you have to stand still for so long to fire it, very low rate of fire, low damage projectiles, I mean really I just get off Woby and hambat things to death lol  but then I still get back up on Woby and run around without worrying about random bucks / where the roads are / whether I got a cane on this server or not, ect.

If you think the slingshot is central to his kit then I can see why you think he's pretty bad.  Damage avoidance isn't everyone's cup of tea either, as many people are more than willing to drop a fireplace and facetank the 'clops rather than kite her out.  I like the damage avoidance playstyle though, and maybe that's part of why I like Walter.

I do think the slingshot could use a bit of a buff though.  Maybe speed up the attack animation a little, or let you move on Woby while firing idk, not a big deal to me though.

 

6 hours ago, Bugsworth said:

digging up blue caps is like a kick to the nuts to future me. and besides, did you not see the math i did? even using the most efficient food you're getting more waste than a normal character. the thing im saying isnt in my opinion, you can argue with math.

just because he gets in and out of the ruins faster doesn't make him faster in the long run. a good example of this is tanking. it might be good in the moment, but it doesnt actually save time. ill give you my math. 

 

beefalo 9 seconds tanking 13 health lost 10 seconds not tanking 
krampus 5 seconds tankin 20 health lost 5.5 seconds kiting 
butter fly spawns every 15 seconds, so assuming you have 1 flower it would take you 30 seconds to restore a beef and 45 for krampus
you lose 25 % on krampus and 17 % on beefalo
it take like, 10 ish seconds to get 1 rope and it takes you on average 4 pigs to get 1 pig skin. 
that would mean it would cost you 0.25 pig skin and rope. that would take you probably a minute to get. 
kitings takes you 1-2 ish seconds more. while tanking would cost you at best 1:30 seconds. assuming you're a normal character.

 

its not about how tough something is, its about how efficient it is. just because you cant play warly doesn't make him bad, it makes you bad. many people say that hes a bad character because they cant play him. yeah, just because you can easily do something doesnt mean its better. i can easily do a ruin rush, but that doesnt make it better than starting an early base or doing a lunar rush.

I mean you say its "math" but I know that people can misuse math.  Make the wrong assumptions on your variables and your outcome is wrong.  From my experience Wolfgang is the easiest, and fastest ruins rush.  I'm able to clear more, quicker, and with no more preparation than anyone else.  I think you're making a few wrong assumptions, and it might by why you don't realize how good Wolfgang is.

You seem to fear using the resources at your disposal.  You don't wanna dig up blue caps.  You know we got mushroom planters right?  Even if I dig up 20 or so mushrooms there are a LOT more still in the ground eh?  Similarly you can knock down pig houses.  You get 2 cut stone a board and 2 pig skins each time.  Takes very little to knock down 2-3 pig houses, you'll use the stone and boards for an alchemy engine anyway.  If you come across a touch stone that's 8 quick pigskins too.  If I find a touch stone early I usually just kill a beef or two and I'm ready for the ruins.

If you don't like doing these things that's okay.  There are some people who don't like knocking down pighouses, digging up mushrooms, burning trees for heat, ect BUT that's your choice in how you play and has little bearing with what we're talking about here.  Knock down some pig houses, dig up some blue shrooms, and the Ruins are a VERY fast clear for Wolfgang.

I think its great that you illustrate that kiting doesn't take much more time than taking, but do you know what takes even less time?  2x damage multiplier lol.  A damage bishop is going to take about 18 attacks with a fresh hambat to kill.  Its going to attack you about every 6th attack, with the first one coming around attack 2-3.  You can't avoid this damage, so you're taking about 120 damage each time.  Worse if you're tanking 2 bishops at once, about 240 during the first bishop and another 120 during the second.  But Wolfgang can clear a bishop in 9 hits, which means he only takes 40 damage KO'ing a bishop, 120 for 2 at once.

Every single time you engage in combat a 2x multiplier is going to help you save time AND resources.  Food is not a very limited resource.  I'm not worried about his hunger drain at all.  I'm usually having food to rotten on me no matter how I play lol

[Guille6785]

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

A damage bishop is going to take about 18 attacks with a fresh hambat to kill.  Its going to attack you about every 6th attack, with the first one coming around attack 2-3.  You can't avoid this damage, so you're taking about 120 damage each time.

you can avoid it, use a torch

[Keller Max]

10 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

you can avoid it, use a torch

New tricks? Show us

[Hornete]

6 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

New tricks? Show us

(Works for knight too)
(It's loot will turn to ash if its still on fire, the fire was going out when I killed it so the loot did not burn, just something to note)

Using fire is pretty great in a lot of cases, I feel not enough people give fire damage it's credit where due.

[Keller Max]

Just now, Hornete said:

(Works for knight too)

Damn Boi! Didn't know that.

3 minutes ago, Hornete said:

(It's loot will turn to ash if its still on fire, the fire was going out when I killed it so the loot did not burn, just something to note)
Using fire is pretty great in a lot of cases, I feel not enough people give fire damage it's credit where due.

I guess I should consider playing Pyromaniac herself.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

you can avoid it, use a torch

Sure, you can avoid it, or with Wolfgang and handful of mushrooms you don't care lol  So I think the comment is a bit beside the point, but as Walter I use poop pellets to dodge bishop attacks, maybe I can try this too, thx.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Keller Max said:

New tricks? Show us

completely negating all their hits is a bit luck based and depends on the weapon you use but at the very least you'll avoid the majority

[Keller Max]

1 minute ago, Guille6785 said:

completely negating all their hits is a bit luck based and depends on the weapon you use but at the very least you'll avoid the majority

If you can get less hits for a minimal effort, then it's worth it.

[Bugsworth]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I mean you say its "math" but I know that people can misuse math.  Make the wrong assumptions on your variables and your outcome is wrong.  From my experience Wolfgang is the easiest, and fastest ruins rush.  I'm able to clear more, quicker, and with no more preparation than anyone else.  I think you're making a few wrong assumptions, and it might by why you don't realize how good Wolfgang is.

You seem to fear using the resources at your disposal.  You don't wanna dig up blue caps.  You know we got mushroom planters right?  Even if I dig up 20 or so mushrooms there are a LOT more still in the ground eh?  Similarly you can knock down pig houses.  You get 2 cut stone a board and 2 pig skins each time.  Takes very little to knock down 2-3 pig houses, you'll use the stone and boards for an alchemy engine anyway.  If you come across a touch stone that's 8 quick pigskins too.  If I find a touch stone early I usually just kill a beef or two and I'm ready for the ruins.

If you don't like doing these things that's okay.  There are some people who don't like knocking down pighouses, digging up mushrooms, burning trees for heat, ect BUT that's your choice in how you play and has little bearing with what we're talking about here.  Knock down some pig houses, dig up some blue shrooms, and the Ruins are a VERY fast clear for Wolfgang.

I think its great that you illustrate that kiting doesn't take much more time than taking, but do you know what takes even less time?  2x damage multiplier lol.  A damage bishop is going to take about 18 attacks with a fresh hambat to kill.  Its going to attack you about every 6th attack, with the first one coming around attack 2-3.  You can't avoid this damage, so you're taking about 120 damage each time.  Worse if you're tanking 2 bishops at once, about 240 during the first bishop and another 120 during the second.  But Wolfgang can clear a bishop in 9 hits, which means he only takes 40 damage KO'ing a bishop, 120 for 2 at once.

Every single time you engage in combat a 2x multiplier is going to help you save time AND resources.  Food is not a very limited resource.  I'm not worried about his hunger drain at all.  I'm usually having food to rotten on me no matter how I play lol

like i said, its not about easiness that makes things good, its about the time it takes. YES wolfgang is faster at doing ruins YES hes faster at killing. but its only 2 times faster and you're not going to be spending much time fighting anyways. as a beginner wolfgang is the best because he prepares stuff then does it with ease taking more time. you see, im not a beginner so instead of preparing as much as wolfman, i dont which takes less time. he is easier, but not better. thats also why when i was playing dst without armour i choose Wolfgang, because he's easier.

[Keller Max]

17 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

how do you know this, I've never seen devs say this and you simply provided your own interpretration of his perks that don't necessarily have to do with what klei had in mind

whether or not the slingshot was supposed to be walter's main perk, in practice it's by far the least impactful of his upsides

Making a single mistake can be crucial for him. Taking a hit that will dismount him you Woby can pretty much kill him. Tanking any hits will make your sanity drop to the danger level, and god forbid if you don't have any healing, cause campfire stories won't restore your sanity.

16 hours ago, Dextops said:

but it only lasts a day in their inventory right? while in wurt it lasts like 4 so it works a lot better for her and if you have 3 you can switch them out 

But why 3?

[xDarkSoul18x]

How did maxwell get less votes on weakness over Wilson? Boring/Basic =/= weak. I’d argue Wilson’s strength comes from the fact that you DONT have to worry about any quirks like faster hunger drain, can’t sleep, etc that come with every other character. 

That is his intention! He doesn’t need a “buff”! 

[Dextops]

8 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

Making a single mistake can be crucial for him. Taking a hit that will dismount him you Woby can pretty much kill him. Tanking any hits will make your sanity drop to the danger level, and god forbid if you don't have any healing, cause campfire stories won't restore your sanity.

But why 3?

when one is about to die you can switch them out with another one and put the depleting on in the tin fishin' bin which will make it regain its freshness and you can just keep alternating between then easily as wurt same can be done with another type of fish which negates summers overheating effect

[GetNerfedOn]

32 minutes ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

How did maxwell get less votes on weakness over Wilson? Boring/Basic =/= weak. I’d argue Wilson’s strength comes from the fact that you DONT have to worry about any quirks like faster hunger drain, can’t sleep, etc that come with every other character. 

That is his intention! He doesn’t need a “buff”! 

Then again it is important to note that in Wilson's lack of ability the other characters gain even more effectiveness with their special perks and playstyles leaving Wilson with little to nothing to show for himself in any given playthrough. While yes, you don't have to worry about character specific problems like vegetarianism or carnivorism or a faster hugner and sanity drain, you also don't get the potential any other character gets. He can't harvest as quickly as maxwell, slaughter spiders like wendy, traverse the caves like Wortox.

[GenomeSquirrel]

36 minutes ago, xDarkSoul18x said:

I’d argue Wilson’s strength comes from the fact that you DONT have to worry about any quirks like faster hunger drain, can’t sleep, etc that come with every other character. 

WX, Wendy, Woody, and Willow do that job better

[Guille6785]

6 hours ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

WX, Wendy, Woody, and Willow do that job better

small downsides =/= no downsides

wx's downside is the only one on that list that has never made a difference to me, as for the rest: transforming during full moons as woodie when you don't want to is annoying and avoiding transformations wastes some time; willow's low max sanity isn't necessarily a bad thing but it does mean you can't go without sanity restoration before going insane for as long as other characters which can be tedious for a new player, and wendy's 0.75x damage is absolutely a downside as much as the wendy op crowd in the forums don't want to admit it