[Spaced Out! Update] - 464793

[babba]

Much appreciated, many thanks @JoeW

Edited May 25, 2021 by babba

[Yunru]

15 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Second. We don't don't do ANYTHING because it's "the right way". I want this to be VERY clear. From day one when I became an employee at Klei Entertainment I was told "Don't do something because it's the way 'it's supposed to be done', do it because YOU think it's the way it 'should be done'. Then test it, adjust and learn from that". I can't stress this enough, this is part of our core DNA at Klei. There are some things that we have learned to count on though time but generally speaking, this is how we operate. 

When we make a game, we set out to do something, and then we adjust as we move forward.

Feedback: There is not a strong enough emote for how pleasing this is to hear. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Yunru

[spkthed]

I settled for Shopcat.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by spkthed

[babba]

4 minutes ago, spkthed said:

I settled for Shopcat.

 

 

Every thread ends in cat memes...Still no robotic cat in the game

Basic ore version !

Edited May 25, 2021 by babba

[spkthed]

There is the lion sculpture. And really, don't longhair slicksters look a little suspiciously like a fluffy cat modified for space?

[Gurgel]

3 hours ago, JoeW said:

Normally, this is not something I would chime in on. Generally, I try to avoid dipping my hand into community arguments. But here I go. 

Thanks for that. Most of what you said I already suspected, but it is nice to have confirmation.

3 hours ago, JoeW said:

Second. We don't don't do ANYTHING because it's "the right way". I want this to be VERY clear. From day one when I became an employee at Klei Entertainment I was told "Don't do something because it's the way 'it's supposed to be done', do it because YOU think it's the way it 'should be done'. Then test it, adjust and learn from that". I can't stress this enough, this is part of our core DNA at Klei. There are some things that we have learned to count on though time but generally speaking, this is how we operate. 

This is exactly the way to do it if you want to create something new or better (or both). Otherwise you will just repeat what others have done countless times. Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for doing things the "right way". It is when you make a standardized product that everybody counts on behaving in a specific way. Say, screws or nails. Or yogurt. Or paper. But for anything creative, anything innovative, anything not derivative, the "right way" is the road to something mediocre. If you are lucky. I am very glad you people at Klei understand this.

There are two nice terms from architecture (the "bridges and houses" kind) I like to use here:

• "Unselfconscious Design" means doing what everybody else does because everybody else does it and not because you have reflected on it. This approach is suitable for standardized, well understood tasks.
• "Selfconscious Design" is thinking about what you want to achieve and then selecting the best known ways to get there or even inventing new ways to get there. This approach is needed for good results on anything new, innovative or creative.

I use these two terms to explain to my IT Engineering students the difference between a technician and an engineer. A technician must master "Unselfconscious Design" a.k.a. "the right way" to do things, but that is enough. An engineer must, in addition, be willing and able to do Selfconscious Design competently and recognize when it is needed.

[pether]

On 5/20/2021 at 8:25 PM, Ipsquiggle said:

We're doing a rebalance of the tech tree, with two major parts. First, we'd always intended that the new research points were "Generic", but the Atomic Collider and Atomic Research Points made it seem overly specific. These are being rebranded as the Materials Study Terminal and Materials Science Research to make this more clear.

I don't opose the idea, but I liked the look of previous research center more. New one is too much rectangle, it looks bad for me. Can I ask to rethink new design? Maybe cut one corner, or make somthing a dome instead of a box... I don't know, graphic design is not my strongest suit, but I can see that old image simply looked better...

Thanks!

[Meltdown]

11 minutes ago, pether said:

I liked the look of previous research center more

Personally, I like them both. It would be cool if we could keep both versions and select visual appearence when building the research station...

[pether]

1 hour ago, Meltdown said:

It would be cool if we could keep both versions and select visual appearence when building the research station...

Nah, it would be overcomplicated for no reason.

1 hour ago, Meltdown said:

Personally, I like them both

Probably it is a matter of preferences. But when I look at both of them, I see it like this:

Spoiler

For me, it seems that somebody tried too hard to fit new image into the rectangle. As a result, it looks very plain and 2D for me (I mean, I know it is 2D game, but previous design didn't look like 2D rectangle and therefore was felt less 2D).

However, I must say I am very curious about final animations for new one, they might be really cool judging by those hand ports in the middle. Will duplicants do something with stuff inside? What will go cartoony-wrong? Can't wait to see it!

[Lacero]

the rectangle is begging for it to be fit into a room with walls immediately around it, locking it in a sealed environment and making it look like a dedicated working block.  the previous arc design is a gorgeous shape and works well free standing in space.

I like the drill bit thingy in the new one too

Edited May 26, 2021 by Lacero

[pether]

8 minutes ago, Lacero said:

the rectangle is begging for it to be fit into a room with walls immediately around it, locking it in a sealed environment and making it look like a dedicated working block.  the previous arc design is a gorgeous shape and works well free standing in space.

good observation.

In this case we need radbolt-transparent tile to make enclosed room that allows radbolts to travel through the wall to the research station. I still would like old one more, but I could accept that logic

[babba]

The old green design surely has more style, its from Prada. I find the new one looks more industrial and like a thrown over fridge freezer which Arnie tossed over.

From a production point of view I would have both in the game, as the graphics and full game integration will soon be complete for both. Game design could give both versions slightly different traits or even attach different research capabilities from the research tree to each of them.

I really hope we also get more rocket parts, the recent idea for some rocket engine version which has a (little?) fuel tank integrated, next to the current existing (large) rocket fuel tanks, would be superb.

I am also dreaming of some rocket engine test stand ( with large burnout graphics ), where a scientist can research new rocket engines, fuel optimizations and rocket upgrades.

Settting up a whole armada of research buildings would surely underline the games science approach and we can build a true Los Alamos Complex replica.

Edited May 26, 2021 by babba

[spkthed]

The new design signifies that it needs to be enclosed is nice. IMO, keep it unless we get conduits for radiation? I didn't realize that dupes or animals could get killed by radbolts and you can't even flip the building around. Building that looks like it's containing something is a small intuitive nudge that you need to be careful.

Edited May 26, 2021 by spkthed

[pether]

19 minutes ago, babba said:

From a production point of view I would have both in the game, as the graphics and full game integration will soon be complete for both. Game design could give both versions slightly different traits or even attach different research capabilities from them research tree to each of them.

Hey, maybe that is the way? Have material research in general for T3 research, and next to it radiation research for some specific technologies?

I like the idea of having many colors of tech points, so adding another one and making radiation required for only few techs would appeal me  That would make research more fun than just queuing all of it and not worrying about details for specific techs, Spaced Out made step in good direction here, and one more step would be good as well

[Electroely]

I personally like the Material Study Terminal more than the Atomic Collider. I think its animation is interesting to watch and I feel like it's gunna get much better when the art for it's finished.

[babba]

Respected opinions. I would welcome it if the green building can be used for something, it has wonderful curves and "looks radioactive". Perhaps Klei could also consider to double the research times, perhaps the current research goes too fast

22 minutes ago, pether said:

Hey, maybe that is the way? Have material research in general for T3 research, and next to it radiation research for some specific technologies?

I like the idea of having many colors of tech points, so adding another one and making radiation required for only few techs would appeal me  That would make research more fun than just queuing all of it and not worrying about details for specific techs, Spaced Out made step in good direction here, and one more step would be good as well

22 minutes ago, Electroely said:

I personally like the Material Study Terminal more than the Atomic Collider. I think its animation is interesting to watch and I feel like it's gunna get much better when the art for it's finished.

Edited May 26, 2021 by babba

[spkthed]

Maybe a radiation generator? If we were to get conduits, maybe it could be a high-powered, low output radiation source for conduits. Visuals are there for that even.

[KonfigSys]

9 hours ago, pether said:

I don't opose the idea, but I liked the look of previous research center more. New one is too much rectangle, it looks bad for me. Can I ask to rethink new design? Maybe cut one corner, or make somthing a dome instead of a box... I don't know, graphic design is not my strongest suit, but I can see that old image simply looked better...

Thanks!

If to vote, I would go for the old design; it is not critical obviously.

[KonfigSys]

I thought about some people who want to make the game harder (I am not a part of this group, I actually think that the game offers enough problems to overcome). Clearly there is a group of people like that but I cannot estimate the size.

One obvious option will be to have more options at the game start (like in DST you have more than dozens of options that you can change to alternate the game to your liking). All options may have an extra - above the hardest setting - let's call it impossible (I have never played for ALL options set to the current hardest level by the way). 

Another option came to my mind (it is implemented in many games) - just have preset options (like survival? no chance) with maps that are not "ideal" (those preset options may change game mechanics to make it way harder - like bacteria and radiation start killing, all mechanism require 3-5 times more resources to operate/produce per unit (like launcher will need much more bolts to send parcels, research stations will need more materials, no water vents or reduced in the number or output, etc.), rockets will have one hex less travel distance so you need to build hydrogen/radbolt to reach remote asteroids, 100 times more radbolts to fill up the rocket), no farming or severely reduced farming in space hexes, etc.

This group may create a new thread and exchange ideas how they want this special regime to be.... and Klei may consider to implement the technical plan in the game or modders will make such mod for sure.

 

[goboking]

11 hours ago, pether said:

I don't opose the idea, but I liked the look of previous research center more. New one is too much rectangle, it looks bad for me. Can I ask to rethink new design? Maybe cut one corner, or make somthing a dome instead of a box... I don't know, graphic design is not my strongest suit, but I can see that old image simply looked better...

Thanks!

I'm of the opposite opinion.  To me, the first iteration looked like yet another computer terminal (read: boring) and the new version looks like something that would be used to research dangerous materials.

 

6 hours ago, pether said:

I like the idea of having many colors of tech points,

Agreed; space and radiation research specializations add a bit of depth, imho.  I would also like to see medical research if they ever decide to give diseases another pass.

[Swoop5994]

with a rad sensor and automation you can let radbolt go trough no ? didnt tried it yet but it sound like i would be suppose to be done with what we have...
Collider need to keep the heat gen and the nuclear fallout is a really neat alternative since it does make some residual rads but not like the compact loop cheesy design that was shown on the other thread.

you guys might consider including the morphs mods into the games with radiation as trigger these were working every patch but just now they all prevent from booting the game

Edited May 29, 2021 by Swoop5994

[ZombieDupe]

On 5/25/2021 at 10:16 PM, JoeW said:

Second. We don't don't do ANYTHING because it's "the right way". I want this to be VERY clear. From day one when I became an employee at Klei Entertainment I was told "Don't do something because it's the way 'it's supposed to be done', do it because YOU think it's the way it 'should be done'. Then test it, adjust and learn from that". I can't stress this enough, this is part of our core DNA at Klei. There are some things that we have learned to count on though time but generally speaking, this is how we operate. 

I can't speak for everybody in this case, but I would venture to guess that there aren't many people working at Klei that want to do things 'by the book'. It's simply not how we operate. 

Now I'm curious. I understand you bring an idea through gradual development with feedback taken into account (sometimes, deconstructable POI is something that clearly took way too long to get to when there is reason to believe that should have been a high priority), but what is doing things "the right way"? What does doing things "by the book" mean? Is there some prescribed way the rest of the industry approaches development that you don't?

On 5/25/2021 at 12:21 AM, n_t_p said:

I want to be perfectly clear, what I've been trying to get at this whole time is that there's a fundamental juxtaposition between the development of a high quality game and klei's business interests in making a marketable game. Klei responds to player feedback clearly, and doesn't care so much about making a good game as one that will drive sales. That means making people happy, a simple majority according to the disposition of the player's feedback. The disposition of the player's feedback is overwhelmingly immature. This is why there are numerous threads demanding blatant exploits get reinstated, difficulty gets removed and changes get reverted. The playerbase - especially on the forums - can't look past what the game is doing and see what it does for them as they play it. It's some sort of wish fulfilment and it's why germs got nerfed into the ground. I don't know why or how the culture in the community got to be like this, but when the game development process begins to internalize and reflect it that becomes a problem.

I don't think this assessment is fair. Klei ends up with very random things in their collection. Sometimes they make things in a way that ultimately none, not even many of the fans are interested in engaging with (DST boat system or CK for example) and for some reason stick to that, never change it or take years to address in some capacity while  other times they do something decently even if not quite there yet (DST's overhauled farming system, ONI's general progression system) so you end up with pointless grind and tedium as vital stages of progression on one hand as well as things that are completely unengaging on the other.

Their games are definitely NOT very marketable, but at the same time I would argue the resulting quality is subpar as well. Those two don't necessarily go hand in hand or against each other inherently, really depends on the audience you have already gathered, but with what they have, they could definitely do things much better in terms of quality of their games.

When for example, you ditch tuning the germ system and make it a non-issue, but make heat the most infuriatingly difficult thing to never come to understand for which the most robust solution is likely never going to be found by a typical player, you have a clear problem you don't want to address for some reason. Their games are enough to peak your interest, but rarely to keep you focused and I think that's because generally Klei inherently don't understand game design and it doesn't look like they ever will.

I can definitely see how the space development here puts a band aid on a gaping hole (empty space), while simultaneously creating a bigger problem (having no reason to travel to other planetoids and simplifying the task of getting rare and valuable resources). Resin tree could do with some changes for sure though, resin throughput for the calorie cost is almost insignificant and would just take too much time. Who even thought these numbers were a good idea?

[Swoop5994]

11 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Their games are definitely NOT very marketable, but at the same time I would argue the resulting quality is subpar as well. Those two don't necessarily go hand in hand or against each other inherently, really depends on the audience you have already gathered, but with what they have, they could definitely do things much better in terms of quality of their games.

I Am completely against this claim.Telling the klei's game are not marketable because of your self experience is pretty much like something is dumb to be liked by people in general. much of them spent hours choosing to learn to play it's more complex sides Their metacritics and steams ratings are through the roof.....Klei is the definition of unmatched quality, wild ideas for lots of differents paths(Even physic in this 2d sim...), and their games Klei's games are endless you can spend  .I never saw a  game release so full of contents and releases so quicks before.

From mechanics to Ui improvements,passing trough the new physics aspect left some openings to wonder what they prepare...You don't need to go on each planet if you only want to go to a certain number of cycles....in the real long runs thousands of cycles, when you want some automation and being able to replenish all of your multiples baseS the starting geysers are a bit of a stretch . Of course IF you like to play on the ''old school'' setting of the large Terra with all the geysers availables it's up to you to have the ''perfect map'' to start. Or debug mode the crap out of the game to fix your issues ,and then complaining about the planets being less relevant or space travel being useless.Try it on survival beta you will see some things are pretty nice and are gonna change some ways to build.

11 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Who even thought these numbers were a good idea?

Well for starter i do but if you never ended with multi-millions of calories extra if might an indication of something about your way to play. because this is a very common thing once the critters are breeding and the plants are growings.putting a super rush on food delivery to get the resin you need and then settle back on lower numbers...obviously the recent food spoiling in vacuum if not refrigerated is gonna add a bit of challenge to it and i think the whole community love their games hards. In your post i agree on the diseases settings being too safe when you put them on hard they still can be ignored and im sure it's gonna get fix one of these day

 

Radbolts conduits are my wires conduits and that work very good at the moment i have to automate doors (Radiation sensors with Viscogel ) to let them fly trough and to stop dupes from getting in front of it but i'm not sure actual conduits are an answer...even more in the beta at the moment the radbolts are a source of heat on impact so new designs are comings.Conduits would make it very too much easy

Oh yeah cold creating or heat moving displacements solutions are there you just have to check for them.
it's obviously not only the aquatuner and the turbine...

[ZombieDupe]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:26 AM, Swoop5994 said:

I Am completely against this claim.Telling the klei's game are not marketable because of your self experience is pretty much like something is dumb to be liked by people in general. much of them spent hours choosing to learn to play it's more complex sides Their metacritics and steams ratings are through the roof.....Klei is the definition of unmatched quality, wild ideas for lots of differents paths(Even physic in this 2d sim...), and their games Klei's games are endless you can spend  .I never saw a  game release so full of contents and releases so quicks before.

They have good ideas but often times bad execution, often requiring some sort of wiki information for a lot of people, which inherently makes a game worse, and same applies to this game, but to a lesser extent than something like Don't Starve. No their games are not well marketable because their content approach has mostly been in conflict with that. Take for example Don't Starve Together. Lots of people have played it, but have you seen anyone who goes in blind and gets to the final bosses? The usual gameplay and lets plays are of people who play until they die once or twice and then they quit or they can't find what more to do when there is tons of hidden content they have no idea about like caves. 

I don't know how my "self experience" in their games directly relates to how marketable their games are to a general audience, but I know from my observation of how other people play their approach to these games is not marketable specifically because of how terrible their game design choices have been for years. Just take a look at some casual top gameplay channels who have played DS/DST or ONI, rarely any get far, and those that do probably hit a wall at some point. Don't want to specify which, but you should be able to find them very easily. Never seen anyone actually play without help and complete DS adventure mode or reach the temporal tear in ONI and the common patterns are very clear. Heat in base game ONI and spaced out Terra are examples of this exact problem and you can see people struggle in real time through casual lets plays, because none except may be an engineer in their right mind thinks "what I need right now is steam turbine + aqua tuner cooling setup" when they go in blind. You can argue all you want for people to "read between the lines", that is just not common sense and you can see it all in display. Expecting casual players to do that is nonsense, the odds are against it. Klei has dedicated fans and they have mainly stuck to satisfying that part of their playerbase (take the Eye of the Storm update for DST you expect that **** to be marketable? how?), many of whom will have inherent biases about things which would not apply to a casual player and could end up making things worse, because they don't understand that perspective and don't see the value in seeing it. I on the other hand do, and this is why I personally try to bring up what a new player would encounter from their perspective, because I know none else cares even though it matters for a game to grow its audience.

Edited June 14, 2021 by ZombieDupe

[Sasza22]

11 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Never seen anyone actually play without help and complete DS adventure mode or reach the temporal tear in ONI

Seems to be thier design goal somewhat. Klei games are not for everybody. They make hard games that take time and dedication to learn before you can beat them. The thing is you can have some fun in their games even without discovering everything. You can play DS in multiple different ways and have fun never beating the story mode or doing all the missions in DST. In ONI you can have fun without ever launching a rocket or even go full sandbox mode and try different designs for fun.

While i agree that some design decision might hurt the games like going for too much realism in rocket calculations in vanilla so barely anyone attemted to build them without using an external site to see the ranges i still think the games are just fine for the niche market they are designed for. They don`t have to make each game a blockbuster that everybody plays. Being niche might be a viable marketing strategy as well (i don`t actually know that but i assume they are doing fine in that regard).