[Spaced Out! Update] - 464793

[ZombieDupe]

9 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Seems to be thier design goal somewhat. Klei games are not for everybody. They make hard games that take time and dedication to learn before you can beat them. The thing is you can have some fun in their games even without discovering everything. You can play DS in multiple different ways and have fun never beating the story mode or doing all the missions in DST. In ONI you can have fun without ever launching a rocket or even go full sandbox mode and try different designs for fun.

While i agree that some design decision might hurt the games like going for too much realism in rocket calculations in vanilla so barely anyone attemted to build them without using an external site to see the ranges i still think the games are just fine for the niche market they are designed for. They don`t have to make each game a blockbuster that everybody plays. Being niche might be a viable marketing strategy as well (i don`t actually know that but i assume they are doing fine in that regard).

I don't think anyone should be expected to 100% any game at any point, some games have decisions set up in a way that you can't experience everything in a single run regardless. But a typical player should at least be able to complete a game in some capacity, that's what a good game would be (unless you are exceptionally bad and can't tolerate decent difficulty). There are plenty of games that are difficult but because they have been well set up and designed even most casual players have a chance of finishing them. Putting up a wall is not just bad design, it can ruin the experience if the player realises the unrealistic expectations the game makes for them. I think the reason none complains about DS/DST is because none thinks that there is that much to the games to begin with and that all you are ever supposed to do is survive for as long as possible instead of trying to reach some conclusion other than failure, as if the games were endless runners of survival genre, which based on the content provided in recent times isn't the case at all, you're supposed to thrive at some point.

I don't think it's as much about realism itself as it is about how you design the UI and surrounding mechanics around it. The way the UI is done I rarely ever see anyone look at the cartoon video tutorial bits provided within the game itself (even though they are highly informative and fun to watch without taking away too much time from the game itself) and I think a part of that is because clicking through the tutorial list doesn't sound appealing especially if you clicked on a couple already and all that has been is text about things you probably figured out already (such as controls) and some important things not having a video tutorial at all (like germs and diseases). The rocket system isn't even done that realistically, you have all these rocket engines, some of which take fuel directly to the engine, while others require an additional fuel and/or oxidiser tank to run, which doesn't make sense and can get really confusing. A lot can even be streamlined here while keeping balance and a sense of realism in check. Some of the roadblocks are in fact artificial through game mechanics that make zero sense.

Edited June 14, 2021 by ZombieDupe

[Sasza22]

4 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I don't think anyone should be expected to 100% any game at any point, some games have decisions set up in a way that you can't experience everything in a single run regardless. But a typical player should at least be able to complete a game in some capacity,

Oni for a while didn`t have an actual end of the game. I guess you might say that they fell into a trap of finishing the game requiring too much grind. Especially with the vanilla rocket victory condition that basically required you to build everything. But there was an easier victory through the statue.

7 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I don't think it's as much about realism itself as it is about how you design the UI and surrounding mechanics around it.

I think it`s still about the realism. People keep mentioning the terra start and how hard it is to cool stuff down compared to heating it up. That`s the part that`s hard due to realism. A steam geyser is highly realistic and expected in space unlike a cold slush geyser. Heating stuff is easier than cooling irl. Heat transfer is really well done... but it causes gameplay problems as people struggle to manage heat, especially beginners. If it was easier tutorials wound`t be needed. But if it was easier we would lose a lot of what the game offers. It`s hard to strike a balance here.

12 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

some important things not having a video tutorial at all (like germs and diseases). The rocket system isn't even done that realistically, you have all these rocket engines, some of which take fuel directly to the engine, while others require an additional fuel and/or oxidiser tank to run, which doesn't make sense and can get really confusing.

The germ system needs work badly. I think it`s not a coincidence there is no video tutorial about it. It`s likely to get another rework.

The rocket system is currently being hard worked on. Yes it`s confusing but i think there`s still a lot of stuff that is going to change about it.

[crbd115]

19 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

The germ system needs work badly. I think it`s not a coincidence there is no video tutorial about it. It`s likely to get another rework.

My expectation is that before this dlc is done there probably would be some work done on germs. With the addition of radiation and nuclear fallout it seems logical this would be the time for it.
My only concern is if they are now working on combining the code bases does that mean they think this is close to being done? There seems to be so much left that needs to be finished. I sort of wish they would do a roadmap or something even if its just a simple one.

 

[DolphinWing]

5 hours ago, crbd115 said:

My only concern is if they are now working on combining the code bases does that mean they think this is close to being done? There seems to be so much left that needs to be finished. I sort of wish they would do a roadmap or something even if its just a simple one.

 

I guess it's a good time to merge all codes together before everything is done. It gives developers and players more time to sort things out. We can both have this break to fix bugs and make new designs or whatever that. 

[goboking]

7 hours ago, crbd115 said:

My expectation is that before this dlc is done there probably would be some work done on germs. With the addition of radiation and nuclear fallout it seems logical this would be the time for it.

I've been very vocal about a germ system rework, but at this point I think I'd rather them hold off and make it one of selling points of a second expansion.  Doing so would allow them to really focus on finding the sweet spot between their vision for the germ system, what new players can tolerate from it, and what veteran players want out of it.

[crbd115]

19 minutes ago, goboking said:

I've been very vocal about a germ system rework, but at this point I think I'd rather them hold off and make it one of selling points of a second expansion.  Doing so would allow them to really focus on finding the sweet spot between their vision for the germ system, what new players can tolerate from it, and what veteran players want out of it.

I would rather not have a second dlc to fix a core system

[goboking]

2 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I would rather not have a second dlc to fix a core system

Not fix, fix and expand.  I want the current diseases to matter.  I also want more diseases with new symptoms, new vectors, and new cures.  If they tackle both at once the end result probably be more cohesive and more integrated than if they tackle them piecemeal.

[crbd115]

1 hour ago, goboking said:

Not fix, fix and expand.  I want the current diseases to matter.  I also want more diseases with new symptoms, new vectors, and new cures.  If they tackle both at once the end result probably be more cohesive and more integrated than if they tackle them piecemeal.

But that's just it as a core system its inherent that it will be expanded for each expansion because it is a core system to the game. This dlc added a new germ type, and a new cure and I expect it to be something to be expanded on continually but I do not want a dlc devoted specifically to it. They can easily fix it in one or two updates if they decide to focus on it. Not something to the scale of a dlc which usually is big enough to warrant a year or so of development time.

[Cairath]

13 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

Never seen anyone actually play without help and complete DS adventure mode or reach the temporal tear in ONI and the common patterns are very clear.

Can't speak for DS, but I've completed ONI with no help. Believe it or not, I wasn't seeking external help, and on discord I am usually very against bombing newbies with youtube videos or ready-made builds for every occassion because it really kills creativity. I really enjoy experimenting. Although I grew up when there were no internet guides, all people got were some booklets with instructions that the publisher decided to add.  Failing and trying again is alright in my book. And I wouldn't call myself a great player, I am clueless about most advanced builds described on the forums. Those super optimal and advanced builds are absolutely not necessary to finish/enjoy the game, but props to people who figure it all out. 

I am glad Klei isn't dumbing the content down (even though I have some very strong feelings about how germs were nerfed and are meaningless as of now, I was worried it'd continue in the direction of making the game just... too easy ). If ONI was a game like a ton of others that require no thinking and are very simple.. you wouldn't see a bunch of people with 1000hrs+ clocked. The game would be just boring, people would beat it and move on.

I played World of Warcraft for years. The game was luring in more and more casuals who kept complaining they don't want to or can't participate in raids because they were "too hardcore". Long story short, there are so many easy modes now that you can get into an easy mode raid and... hit the boss once and leech, or have absolutely no idea what your skills do, and still get the loot. 

[goboking]

7 hours ago, Cairath said:

on discord I am usually very against bombing newbies with youtube videos or ready-made builds for every occassion because it really kills creativity.

I wish more people would follow your lead.

[ZombieDupe]

On 6/15/2021 at 9:56 AM, Cairath said:

Can't speak for DS, but I've completed ONI with no help. Believe it or not, I wasn't seeking external help, and on discord I am usually very against bombing newbies with youtube videos or ready-made builds for every occassion because it really kills creativity. I really enjoy experimenting. Although I grew up when there were no internet guides, all people got were some booklets with instructions that the publisher decided to add.  Failing and trying again is alright in my book. And I wouldn't call myself a great player, I am clueless about most advanced builds described on the forums. Those super optimal and advanced builds are absolutely not necessary to finish/enjoy the game, but props to people who figure it all out. 

That's probably why, but a pattern has emerged with content where it's too punishing to be reasonable for most people I have seen to actually get past a certain point without help.

On 6/15/2021 at 9:56 AM, Cairath said:

I am glad Klei isn't dumbing the content down (even though I have some very strong feelings about how germs were nerfed and are meaningless as of now, I was worried it'd continue in the direction of making the game just... too easy ). If ONI was a game like a ton of others that require no thinking and are very simple.. you wouldn't see a bunch of people with 1000hrs+ clocked. The game would be just boring, people would beat it and move on.

I disagree with this completely as a good thing. The probable reason you and a lot of other people (myself included) have taken over 1000 hours to get this far is not because there is so much to do with plenty puzzles and challenges to work with. It's because the game takes too long to get anything done, more specifically building (digging is fine, I can get a lot dug up in a cycle or two with just one dedicated digging duplicant). You can never have enough builders, and may be suppliers as well. I think Klei has for a very long time, without anyone noticing or caring, whether they realised it themselves or not artificially inflated gameplay hours through RNG, repetitive and unthriving grind, halting progress through mechanics that just don't fit together and more. It should not take you this long to figure things out and having to leave the game running at max speed waiting for things to get done just because a build is necessary or extremely useful. I've resorted to using debug speed which at this point is much more reasonable as max speed (it should be the max speed honestly) and even then I get some dips in duplicant performance.

I have found ways to optimise duplicants running between places to supply and build portions of buildings, but even still there is a very clear result of game taking too long to do anything after you get past mid game. If even just the max speed of the game was set to the debug speed, you would see a lot of those hours cut, may be 10 fold. We could then have invested only 100 hours in the game but have the experience that today someone with only 1000 hours could actually understand and do. It has got so ridiculous that people leave the game running for multiple cycles while asleep because everything takes so long and they have nothing to do while their duplicants will take several dozen cycles to do what has been outlined. Sometimes it's to exploit a result of game mechanics, other times because there is no other way without debug/modded speed. That's not normal!

Fully agree with germs and diseases, that was just made insignificant enough to not have to worry about and make extra precautions for at all. While I would like and think it's necessary to have a building that kills germs in liquids by using chlorine for example, the overall negative effects of germs is very lacking.

On 6/15/2021 at 5:15 PM, goboking said:

I wish more people would follow your lead.

It just will not happen until the entire ONI progression system for base game and DLC is streamlined enough for most people to learn all on their own. For this game Klei isn't far off getting that right, but they just haven't been focusing on such problems at all. Right now I recommend people against trying spaced out Terra (small planetoid) and not going straight to Rime in base game when starting out because heat is just too big of a problem too quickly with very little viable early solutions to it. If they sort things out, I don't think we would even need tutorials that tell you exactly how to deal with a problem as you could very easily figure it out all on your own. For example in DST they added starting items for new players joining in harsh seasons, that streamlined things a lot and now I don't have to worry about helping people so much at the expense of enjoying the game myself.

[crbd115]

1 hour ago, ZombieDupe said:

I think Klei has for a very long time, without anyone noticing or caring, whether they realised it themselves or not artificially inflated gameplay hours through RNG, repetitive and unthriving grind, halting progress through mechanics that just don't fit together and more.

Yes exactly this, this is why I keep asking for a smarter rng for duplicant generation. Like the amount of traits in the game now has just bloated things to 90% useless 5% good and 5% bad. The worst part about it is the more you start over like say if a new update comes out or trying a different strategy the more grating it gets on you. I've literally gotten to the point where I just can't stand duplicant generation the way it is. Either I have to wait for reasonable dupes, grab a ton of really bad dupes and then have a bunch of idle dupes when the main projects are done and struggle to keep them all working, or use mods to speed things up and cut out the fat. With how many times they add new generation to the game forcing people who want to play the new content to restart and then having multiple worlds to try after you finish, you would think the first thing they would try to streamline is duplicant generation. Mainly because the more you do it the more and more frustrating it gets.