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Durability, pros and cons


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Hello everyone, 

I hope you are doing alright.

I think it is a great idea from team Klei to change an already existing system to fit their new vision of the game ! It involves many pros : 
- It makes it more realistic and interesting, because even though it was nice, atmosuits were more like "okay done" than something you have to maintain. 
- Brings a new challenge to craft new suits, we will have to make new crazy builds !
However I have two main concerns, which have something to do with dupes being... dupes (without accounting micro management, which is not the way I like to play) :
- That suits will break out of the blue and your dupe spits out carbone dioxide and scalds to death, breaking your build and their life.
- That you have to manually check and click "deliver suit" everytime, which will eventually be boring. 

A perhaps easy way to prevent this would be to have settings on the atmosuit dock (such as on the smart battery for instance). It would allow to close the atmosuit dock if the durability is above X (which equals to 1 cycle), at which point you would be able to throw the old suit (perhaps an automation port ?), and put a new one in the dock.

What are your thoughts ? 
image.png.a2503282de257b9611ee0dfa7bb5ec6e.png

 

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16 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

- That suits will break out of the blue and your dupe spits out carbone dioxide and scalds to death, breaking your build and their life.
- That you have to manually check and click "deliver suit" everytime, which will eventually be boring. 

I haven't had a chance to play with the new system yet, but if this is how it works I find those changes to be unplayable. The good news is they will get overwhelmed with complaints until it is changed to an automatable system if that's the case.

Quick fix:

  1. They are allowed to continue wearing a 0% suit until they return it, then it's gone.
  2. Add a stress debuff at 0% if you like.
  3. Auto deliver after a break.

Or:

Add a repair suits task below some threshold.

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Quote

The good news is they will get overwhelmed with complaints until it is changed to an automatable system if that's the case.

I have seen such complaints in the update topic, this is why I made this thread, so we can be constructive and discuss this matter specifically instead of among other patch notes.

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Yes. They definitely need a durability threshold and probably an auto delivery option. I didn't use atmosuits yet but oxygen mask is a pain to manage. I put an infinity task to repair station but you need to manually deliver the mask again (I also suspect there is no "worn" mask/suit in the database and currently crashing like crazy..)  

Edit: after testing a little, IF you have spare suits/mask and infinity repair in station, they auto-request them in the dock otherwise you have to manually request suit/mask.

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57 minutes ago, Hokaeru said:

- That suits will break out of the blue and your dupe spits out carbone dioxide and scalds to death, breaking your build and their life.
- That you have to manually check and click "deliver suit" everytime, which will eventually be boring. 

I did some testing. Suits dont break during the work. It seems like the durability check is only performed when atmosuit is unequiped, either manually or when passing through the checkpoint. So, no random suit breaks. Additionally, I observed atmosuit dock automatically entering "deliver suit" state after dupe unequiped suit that run out of durability.

It seems like having a couple of spare suits and an ongoing production of reed fiber should solve majority of issues.

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49 minutes ago, Meltdown said:

It seems like having a couple of spare suits and an ongoing production of reed fiber should solve majority of issues.

This new mechanic sounds less like an interesting added challenge and more like "annoying af". Prime example of nerfing what wasn't broken and just begs to be modded out.

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1 hour ago, Meltdown said:

It seems like the durability check is only performed when atmosuit is unequiped, either manually or when passing through the checkpoint. So, no random suit breaks. Additionally, I observed atmosuit dock automatically entering "deliver suit" state after dupe unequiped suit that run out of durability.

That was a really quick fix!

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36 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

This new mechanic sounds less like an interesting added challenge and more like "annoying af". Prime example of nerfing what wasn't broken and just begs to be modded out.

Personally, I'm still not convinced that creating a life cycle for atmosuits and adding maintaince is either an annoyance, a challenge, or a significant nerf. As long as automatic delivery works properly, it would slightly increase resource consumption and introduce labor costs for existing setups.

It feels more like many people are going to be drammatic about any change that affect suits.

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1 hour ago, Meltdown said:

Personally, I'm still not convinced that creating a life cycle for atmosuits and adding maintaince is either an annoyance, a challenge, or a significant nerf. As long as automatic delivery works properly, it would slightly increase resource consumption and introduce labor costs for existing setups.

It feels more like many people are going to be drammatic about any change that affect suits.

So basically it'll be an anti-QoL change that adds no considerable depth and can be circumvented to some degree. They really want to push the whole "spend your initially limited metals carefully" schtick and it's getting annoying that it's starting to uncreatively spill over to existing mechanics. Plug Slugs and Oxygen Masks can get a pass because those are at least more of optional luxuries in comparison.

Judging this newly pushed gimmick in a vaccum, it just feels like something people would just want reverted because dupe AI capabilities tend to get bottlenecked, with their often inefficient actions resulting in way more wasted materials going into maintenance costs (we already saw this with the original implementation of oxygen masks). The totally fair judgment, though, would be to expect something in the future to make this idea more tolerable but that remains to be seen.

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4 hours ago, nakomaru said:

I haven't had a chance to play with the new system yet, but if this is how it works I find those changes to be unplayable.

Agreed. It must be possible to automate this reliably. Otherwise it will be the single point that blocks full colony automation and that would be pretty unacceptable. 

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having to manually re-click suits to be delivered is game breaking.  You loose "hands off" sustainability and it is plain not fun.  Gives jobs to dupes is my job, not Klei giving me jobs.

3 hours ago, BaloneyOs said:

This new mechanic sounds less like an interesting added challenge and more like "annoying af". Prime example of nerfing what wasn't broken and just begs to be modded out.

luckily, there is already a mod for this (to either makes them break more often or not at all)

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So, I can see several issues with new Durability system:

  • It is boring, just "10 cycles, then destroy"
  • It adds complexity to the game, but little depth
  • It is not fun
  • It is not challenging
  • It just takes more time to do anything
  • It costs more and as a result slow down base development
  • It can destroy the game for no reason
  • It feels bad: "pay for DLC to get this worse game"

Also, it was hilarious how fast modders got request to get rid of it... IMO this says a lot how community feels about the change...

The only good thing I can think of is that somehow balances really good Atmo Suits. Do they need nerf? I'd say no, some people say yes, so well, maybe a little. But even if, I don't think this is good/fun way to nerf them.

IMO, one way to deal with the situation is to get rid of durability system at all and in its place balance suits in some different way. I liked how reed was not present on starting asteroid, thats one way. The other - maybe after working X hours non-stop in the suits, dupes could get some bad effect every next hour. So, if that was like -1 to morale, after working 5 hours too long they would get -5.

Another way to justify new system would be to make it more fun. Somebody suggested that the suits could loose durability only in extreme conditions. So we could use them as before, with no additional costs, but we had to think twice before running in magma. The same way, oxygen masks could lose durability only in extreme atmospheres. 

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3 hours ago, pether said:

Another way to justify new system would be to make it more fun. Somebody suggested that the suits could loose durability only in extreme conditions. So we could use them as before, with no additional costs, but we had to think twice before running in magma. The same way, oxygen masks could lose durability only in extreme atmospheres. 

I was thinking about such a mechanic before. Like getting hit by a meteor would heavily damage a suit so it needed repairs.

As for losing durability over time i need to try it first. Like there should be an option to request repairs when the suit is not fully worn out yet so you don`t get stuck with 1% at some point.

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Apparently the soiled suit status bug is a proverbial one...

It seems more like they want us using the buildings that sit in the base a bit more.

I can see there being mods made at theses stations that effect suit performance or purpose at some point. Perhaps even a point of recycle ♻️

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I have not tested the durability feature yet, but my thoughts are:

If there is a way to automate replacing the suits, i´m fine with durability. If i have to constantly monitor my suit setup and replace them with the already annoying single click "deliver" button, i rather use a mod to disable it.  I tend to build my main base to be self sustainable, so i can focus on other areas. I have alerts for water and such to inform me, if something runs out i do not see in the status bar on top. So i would run into the situation, where no suits are availlable anymore without noticing until its to late.

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5 hours ago, SharraShimada said:

If there is a way to automate replacing the suits, i´m fine with durability.

Infinite repair errand + spare suits/masks

Edit: Ok... I get it now why it works perfectly in theory (sandbox dupes to work continuously) but not in a playthrough... Probably dupes fill out the first dock (most used=first to have worn mask/suit) and although there is a request, dupes returning beyond the checkpoint, pass through the checkpoint and leave their mask/suit in that first dock leaving the last dock in line without mask/suit. Then you have to manually put them there... :? 

Edit2: I don't get it! When I watch dupes carefully they behave like in my sandbox experiment (empty dock request mask, they pass it exiting the checkpoint, deliver new mask in time). Why do I still find empty docks then?!! :hopelessness:

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4 hours ago, The Plum Gate said:

"What does the worn/used mask recipe item mean on the craft table?"

When there are "worn" masks(drop in the dock when durability reaches 0 with a bottle of any O2 in them), dupes bring them to the craft table to get repaired. The only cost is dupe time (so far)

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9 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

Infinite repair errand + spare suits/masks

Edit: Ok... I get it now why it works perfectly in theory (sandbox dupes to work continuously) but not in a playthrough... Probably dupes fill out the first dock (most used=first to have worn mask/suit) and although there is a request, dupes returning beyond the checkpoint, pass through the checkpoint and leave their mask/suit in that first dock leaving the last dock in line without mask/suit. Then you have to manually put them there... :? 

Edit2: I don't get it! When I watch dupes carefully they behave like in my sandbox experiment (empty dock request mask, they pass it exiting the checkpoint, deliver new mask in time). Why do I still find empty docks then?!! :hopelessness:

Probably some sort of race condition. The docks with requests may not be protected from having a returning suit stored there, but if a dupe has already picked up the supply task perhaps it is. Less competing dupe tasks in sandbox.

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On 1/18/2021 at 4:52 PM, Sasza22 said:

As for losing durability over time i need to try it first. Like there should be an option to request repairs when the suit is not fully worn out yet so you don`t get stuck with 1% at some point.

According to tests others have done, 1% suits should still be fine, suits only need repairing once they've hit 0% and are then taken off:

  

On 1/18/2021 at 8:54 AM, Meltdown said:

I did some testing. Suits dont break during the work. It seems like the durability check is only performed when atmosuit is unequiped, either manually or when passing through the checkpoint. So, no random suit breaks. Additionally, I observed atmosuit dock automatically entering "deliver suit" state after dupe unequiped suit that run out of durability.

It seems like having a couple of spare suits and an ongoing production of reed fiber should solve majority of issues.

 

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18 minutes ago, ZanthraSW said:

Probably some sort of race condition. The docks with requests may not be protected from having a returning suit stored there, but if a dupe has already picked up the supply task perhaps it is. Less competing dupe tasks in sandbox.

I played in my actual colony some more after having extra mask and no more empty docks. So... it probably works? :juggling:

"Forever" repair task in craft table + extra spare masks to fill the dock when worn ones dropped and go to be repaired

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40 minutes ago, Yunru said:

According to tests others have done, 1% suits should still be fine, suits only need repairing once they've hit 0% and are then taken off:

I just want a "force repair" button in case i need the suit to be 100% for a space trip for example (if i have a dock setup in the rocket) and i don`t have to wait for my suits to get worn out (like when they are all 10% or less).

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I don't understand people saying that this mechanic doesn't bring depth or fun to the game. It is not a change to create new content like the nuclear stuff, it's just a nerf. The purpose of durability is to balance the atmosuits so they don't become (or continue to be) op and as long as we don't need to click to deliver the suits to the docks everytime I'm really ok with this. The atmosuits just used to solve any kind of problem making things too easy and now we need to plan just a little more to consider when to use them to do not spend dupe time and a little bit of resources and I believe it is very consistent with the proposal of the game.

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we love changes, it s just this one feel really really bad
doesn t change the core problem of atmo suit been op af
just make the management more complex, but once automated, atmo suit are still op
not something that make me want to buy the dlc at all.
didn t like much the atmo suit mechanic at all in vanilla, this make it worse
I think Klei should fix the problem of atmo been op first, then this repair mechanic could be fun
also really like the idea that extreme condition like lava and meteor could damage atmo suit durability :p

and @Hokaeru if you want to be "constructive and discuss this matter"
maybe dont say "People just do not like change, I think it is funny" .
same for @Meltdown because someone don t like it for a reason, doesn t mean we are "dramatic" .
please let people explain their concerns, don t silence their voice.
1) you only hide the problem and do not solve it
2) you ignore people and that hurt

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