Durability, pros and cons

[Hodhandr]

So to summarize how durability works (for both masks and suits):

• While worn, durability slowly decreases
• When the item is unequipped, either at dock or manually, and the durability is 0, it becomes "worn"
  • If the worn is unequipped at a dock, the dock will automatically request a new one
• Repairing masks are dupe-labor only, suits cost 1 reed fiber + dupe labor
• EDIT: If another dupe returns through the dock and returns their suit, the request will be cancelled
  • This seems like something that could and should be fixed, though

(I have yet to play the experimental branch for various reasons; this info is from reading the forums and watching a couple videos, so I might be wrong on something)

And my analysis of why did they did this:

The way I see this, a small part of the change is to stop players from just giving all dupes suits forever once they have the materials and tech. But most of it is automated, with a relatively low dupe labor cost (both repairs and farming the fiber), so if anything it's to dissuade players from doing that, rather than stop them.

I think the bigger reason is tied into the DLC's space exploration and the whole multiple bases thing; let me explain:

While setting up new bases, you will find yourself limited on 3 key resources: dupes, time, and materials, and need to balance which ones you go for. Generally speaking you'd send your dupes suited, for environmental protection as well as the oxygen storage, or if that's not an option, at least with masks. With infinite durability, all you need to do is to refill the oxygen, which is fairly simple to set up, especially with masks, and can be built into a rocket, or set up fairly soon, as long as you can produce oxygen.

With limited durability, however, you also need to repair them, which means making the repair building (using all 3 key resources!), and subsequently repairing any broken suits/masks (same), as well as powering it (same for construction, and at probably at least partially for the actual power production). The bigger kicker here is that suits use reed fibers, though, which means you either need to bring some with you, bring the stuff to make a farm (all 3), or be selective about how and when you use it.

For the earlier asteroid, I feel like all of that would be more or less a non-issue; priority one would be to get some oxygen production going, which should be pretty simple. But for more distant asteroids, you will likely want to use suits whenever your dupes venture outside their base. Either way, it means you need to consider durability into your plans when going to asteroids without a more or less functional base.

_____

As for whether the change is good or not...
For masks, it is definitely better than the original system! They now only cost minerals (one-time), and Klei has solved the littering issues as well.
In general I feel like it is in line with the game's general design (complexity you can manage or attempt to simplify), and as people have mentioned, for those who really don't like it, there's always the option to mod it away.

As mentioned at the top, I have yet to play with the changes (stable branch next week?), but until then I feel like it's an overall neutral or slightly positive change.

Sidenote: To people complaining that it add useless complexity that you can automate and/or mod away... isn't that like 90% of the game?
"Food/Morale? oh, that's just an unnecessary distraction, just turn it off in the settings so you don't need to really think about it or set up an automatic vole ranch."
Of course, I'll admit this has less depth than some of the core systems, but that's a matter of degree; I think the argument itself is flawed.
Besides, having the system in place means they can iterate and expand on it.

[Other Micah]

Durability smells of Don't Starve, and I didn't purchase Don't Starve: Spaced Out.  If I wanted to play Don't Starve, I'd scroll up and launch it instead.  I have no desire to battle flying saucers or giant hatches while cracking open a closed system for a durability repair errand.  I can't help but see it that way.  

Atmos suits.  Of course they trivialize environmental hazards, that's their purpose.  Every aspect of ONI can be trivialized.  Are suits more op than the steam turbine, the wheezewort, the pip?  Looking at all the posts of people trapped in their bases because of atmos suits should remind us that there was a learning curve to their use, just like everything else.  I've built enclosed bases surrounded by water, I've cooled and oxygenated entire asteroids.  I don't believe one way is correct over another.  And after all the reworks over the years, maybe it's time to move past atmos suits.  Perhaps a good compromise would be the option to enable durability if you so choose, much like stress reactions are handled when starting a new game.

1600+ hours on ONI and this update was my first passionate complaint.  I'm playing Cyberpunk 2077 on an Xbox One and I got more beef with Klei than CDPR.

[chemie]

3 hours ago, Hodhandr said:

So to summarize how durability works (for both masks and suits):

• While worn, durability slowly decreases
• When the item is unequipped, either at dock or manually, and the durability is 0, it becomes "worn"
  • If the worn is unequipped at a dock, the dock will automatically request a new one
• Repairing masks are dupe-labor only, suits cost 1 reed fiber + dupe labor

(I have yet to play the experimental branch for various reasons; this info is from reading the forums and watching a couple videos, so I might be wrong on something)

 

Not quite

4. If another dup returns with a good suit, it returns to the dock and cancels the request that dock had. Now you have to manually request delivery to another now empty dock. (This is because docks empty and fill from closest to exit).

[Meltdown]

6 hours ago, chemie said:

4. If another dup returns with a good suit, it returns to the dock and cancels the request that dock had. Now you have to manually request delivery to another now empty dock. (This is because docks empty and fill from closest to exit).

I hope this issue would get fixed. Finding and fixing problems like this is what public testing exists for, after all.

6 hours ago, Other Micah said:

Atmos suits.  Of course they trivialize environmental hazards, that's their purpose.  Every aspect of ONI can be trivialized.

But atmosuit trivialize multiple aspects at once. Personally, thats the problem I have with them - there are too many things that have universal solution in form of ultimate protective gear. And durability isn't even a step towards changing this, considering current numbers and the fact that it doesn't affect the functionallity of suits.

@NoMoreUsername I apologize if some of my comments are expressed in offensive manner. However, even if I would take back the "drammatic" part, my point of view unfortunately boils down to "I think I can perfectly manage this new mechanic, it hardly creates any issues for me". Which is basically total disagreement with people who actually strongly dislike durability.

23 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

I just want a "force repair" button in case i need the suit to be 100% for a space trip for example (if i have a dock setup in the rocket) and i don`t have to wait for my suits to get worn out (like when they are all 10% or less).

Inability to filter suits by durability is actually sounds like a serious design flaw. I think we need to focus more attention on this part of the problem since it is something that definitely should be addressed.

[pether]

15 hours ago, Victorzhov said:

It is not a change to create new content like the nuclear stuff, it's just a nerf.

I am not opposing the nerf, but it could be done in better way than this system.

15 hours ago, Victorzhov said:

The purpose of durability is to balance the atmosuits so they don't become (or continue to be) op

But they still are, they just cost more.

15 hours ago, Hokaeru said:

I suppose we all agree that we can trust Klei with providing excellent content with humour and originality. 

Oh, no doubt about that!

12 hours ago, Hodhandr said:

there's always the option to mod it away

It is really bad argument - "game can be bad because you can mod it". There are mods that shouldn't ever require to exist. KLEI is doing great job finding those and implementing them to the game, but this doesn't change a fact that bad things remain bad even with mod patching them and I don't want ONI to be bad without mods...

11 hours ago, Hodhandr said:

To people complaining that it add useless complexity that you can automate and/or mod away... isn't that like 90% of the game?
"Food/Morale?

Food and morale are challenges that open new strategies, force you to plan how to handle it, make you think about the game, make you find better solutions for the problems and you can grow as a player. Durability is boring and brings nothing to your games, just "produce more reed", but you would do this anyway... If durability opened new paths of gameplay and would be more fun/challenging I wouldn't be against it.

12 hours ago, Hodhandr said:

Besides, having the system in place means they can iterate and expand on it.

YES! That's the point. By providing our feedback, they can improve it. That's why we are discussing it. They cannot expand it if its current flaws are not defined. But saying "It is fine because it will maybe be better someday" is lying to yourself. It cannot be better if you don't define what better is.

[Hokaeru]

@NoMoreUsername I am truly sorry if you felt hurt because of my comment. It was in no way meant to disregard your opinion, which I want to hear (read?), thus this topic. I was trying to make humour of this tendency we (including me) have to be suspicious about anything new and then getting used to it and finally accepting it.
Let's share the gristle berry juice of friendship !

[NoMoreUsername]

@Hokaeru sorry I may misunderstood the humor, feel ashamed of myself now
as I am not native english speaking, sometimes things like that go way over my head
(truth is, I am just so dense... even in my native language...)

but if I did post this message ,even knowing that I don t understand much,
it s, I don t want to see people block themselves to explain their concerns because they would feel ignored or mocked
as long as the concerns are told with a minimum of respect of course
this is a really precious feedback, and if people post some violent comment it may also mean they are truly passionate of this game
really don t want people to be seen ignored
after it is up to the developers to make the good choice to follow the direction they want for their game (not easy task)

btw I really appreciate your answer, I was ready to have some really negative feedback on my first comment
I am so bad at explaining things that I always create conflict in spite of myself
I really need to find better ways to explain thing

anyway thank you for the answer and have a nice day
in hope we can help Klei find a good solution to the problem

[Kderosa]

I think a more ONI solution to the problem is to provide a new skill - Tailor and the crafting table station.  A dupe with the tailoring skill would spend his day repairing suits. much like the cook does cooking food all day long.  The crafting table would need to be supplied with reed fiber, other materials, and worn suits to effect the repairs and repaired suits would have to be delivered to some point where the dupes would exchange worn suits for repaired suits much like they exchange hats now (ie., it should happen automatically and immediately). The delivering tasks should be such that automation could be used to reduce labor like critter feeders can be automated.  As long as the crafting table is properly supplied the tailor should be capable of working all day making a stockpile of repaired suits like the cook cooks a stockpile of food.  Bad things then happen when there are not enough repaired suits to fill the pipeline much like bad things happen when there is not enough food available for the dupes.  If a suit is not repaired in time it disappears with all the bad side effects, such as the dupe being scalded, your vacuum locks being ruined, and/or contracting zombie spores in the oil biome.  (btw this would also solve the disease problem as well since dupes would now be more likely to come in contact with germs if you aren't managing your suit repair supply chain adequately.)  The key is to make sure exchanged suits like eating and and repairing suits like cooking - something that the dupes do without fail with no mircromanaging needed by you once the supply chain has ben set up.

In addition, I'd nerf the dupes ability to hold their breath, making the need to wear suits an imperative in non-oxygen environments with serious debuffs for any dupes working without suits in these environments.  And woe be to the player who has not established a base full of oxygen and devoid of other gases much like the name of the game implies.

The diseases should be un-nerfed so that the doctor now has a real purpose and another supply chain needs to be established.  I'd recommend using the eggs of the various shine bug variants as components of the disease cures which establishes yet another supply chain involving ranchers and perhaps farmers.

The material the suits are made out of should determine the environment they are suited for - copper/aluminum (general use), gold (oil biome), steel (space biome), thermium (magma channels and magma biome).  Now there's an actual non-exotic use for thermium.  

Put the niobium volcano in some harsh planet that requires the use of steel suits to conquer (late game).  Put the end game requirement at the bottom of the magma planet.  Make the end game something where you have to transport all your dupes to some new planet with supplies on a one way trip and you have to establish one last colony where your dupes get to live in bliss after all their hard work. (The morale requirements should steadily increase over a thousand cycles of so such that you have to build all these entertainment buildings and keep them working as your dupes lose hope.  Your last base should require all the entertainment buildings and only the best food to maintain morale.)

This is a proper survival mode game that builds on all the systems the devs have provided us so far.

In any event, in the end suit repair should be just one more supply chain complication to add to the mix but one that works in the background with little intervention like the cook if you've set up an system that is efficient.  But hopefully you can see the possibilities.

[goboking]

On 1/18/2021 at 3:37 AM, BaloneyOs said:

This new mechanic sounds less like an interesting added challenge and more like "annoying af". Prime example of nerfing what wasn't broken and just begs to be modded out.

For the cost of 300k of refined metal, 2 reed fibers, and a steady supply of oxygen, atmo suits trivialize extreme heat, extreme cold, vacuum, airborne germs, unbreathable atmospheres, and working underwater.  And it's your opinion that that's perfectly balanced gameplay?  That any ongoing upkeep, such as repair materials or dupe labor, breaks the game?

[MinhPham]

2 hours ago, goboking said:

For the cost of 300k of refined metal, 2 reed fibers, and a steady supply of oxygen, atmo suits trivialize extreme heat, extreme cold, vacuum, airborne germs, unbreathable atmospheres, and working underwater.  And it's your opinion that that's perfectly balanced gameplay?  That any ongoing upkeep, such as repair materials or dupe labor, breaks the game?

I need something to deal with every day stuffs like the popped eardrums, soggy feet, sopping wet and just that, and i still had to use atmo suit because there's nothing else useful. And i still think it is mostly the main reason for everyone to have suits .. the hot stuffs are situational, dupes don't dive into magma pool every day (btw if they do, it's totally your fault), and dupes are ok with absolute zero temperature, germs, they can hold their breath in vacuum long enough to complete the task.

[BaloneyOs]

2 hours ago, goboking said:

That any ongoing upkeep, such as repair materials or dupe labor, breaks the game?

Nice try attempting to put words in my mouth. Please point out where I mentioned that a nerf would break the game, seeing how "annoying af" doesn't mean "breaks the game". I've even posted various other means of nerfing/rebalancing the atmo suit in other threads.

But to directly address your post:

For the cost of negligible materials and labor needed for repair, from resources that are eventually likely to be renewable, it's your opinion that provides a meaningful nerf? That the lack of extra material cost and labor for suits would break the game?

See, I too can try to attach numbers to subjective things and describe the situation hyperbolically while pretending the numbers I'm in favor of are balanced. The reason I don't bother going with this kind of argument is that there's more to balance than just adding some percentage of material and labor costs. In a game where balance is so intertwined among all the mechanics of the game, this iteration of durability painfully ignores the bigger picture of any potential problem with atmo suits and sets a very anti-fun, anti-QoL precedent for future design. This becomes especially true for players who believe that atmo suits are balanced as is.

In other words, this kind of nerf is a middle finger to the mechanic's overall fun factor because it just meaninglessly inflates costs, doesn't address the functionality, and IMO is one of the least imaginative possible ways to disincentivize its use. Considering the game's current stage of development, this feels like the kind of nerf that gets rolled out when they hope that the playerbase is too stupid to see through how lazy it is, but as I've mentioned in my other post there's still more to be seen in the expansion.

The nerf didn't even address the following:

Quote

atmo suits trivialize extreme heat, extreme cold, vacuum, airborne germs, unbreathable atmospheres, and working underwater. 

to the point where I'd argue it wasn't really nerfed at all in regards to all those "overpowered" traits. The only thing that felt nerfed by adding durability was the game's fun factor.

 

TL;DR: The current iteration of durability is severely lacking in flavor, like meal lice.

[goboking]

26 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

his iteration of durability painfully ignores the bigger picture of any potential problem with atmo suits and sets a very anti-fun, anti-QoL precedent for future design.

Here's the thing.  You aren't the sole arbiter of what is and isn't fun.  You can scream that this isn't fun all day long, but there might be someone else whose opinion carries just as much weight as yours who disagrees.

As to your "precedent of anti-QoL" design, why is this the line you're drawing when we already pay material costs in to fertilize and irrigate crops, dupe labor to groom critters, material cost and dupe labor to tune generators, etc.?  Why are those things okay, but a few reed fibers and a bit of dupe time to patch up a suit that grants invulnerability to environmental hazards too much to ask?

 

27 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

and IMO is one of the least imaginative possible ways to disincentivize its use.

They don't want to disincentivize its use, they want to balance it.  They're fine with us using it.  They want us to use it.  They just want us to pay a fair price for doing so.

 

28 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said:

Considering the game's current stage of development, this feels like the kind of nerf that gets rolled out when they hope that the playerbase is too stupid to see through how lazy it is, but as I've mentioned in my other post there's still more to be seen in the expansion.

But I'm the one being hyperbolic, right?

 

41 minutes ago, MinhPham said:

need something to deal with every day stuffs like the popped eardrums, soggy feet, sopping wet and just that, and i still had to use atmo suit because there's nothing else useful.

I'm not sure I follow your logic.  You say atmo suits are the only way to manage popped eardrums, soggy feet, and sopping wet, but gas pumps, liquid pumps, and mopping are all more than capable of alleviating those problems.  There aren't such readily available remedies for setting up infrastructure in a scalding oil biome without the atmo suit.

[MinhPham]

1 hour ago, goboking said:

I'm not sure I follow your logic.  You say atmo suits are the only way to manage popped eardrums, soggy feet, and sopping wet, but gas pumps, liquid pumps, and mopping are all more than capable of alleviating those problems.  There aren't such readily available remedies for setting up infrastructure in a scalding oil biome without the atmo suit.

Don't know about your play style but it's true with my play style, hot oil biome, magma biome thing is situational. In my recent run i cleaned the magma biome in less than 100 cycles, and maybe half of that on the oil biome, and then i don't have hot biomes anymore.

And, by the way the durability thing is a dangerous idea ... what if you had to repair other things ? ladders ? tubes ? buildings ? in the real world they required maintenance too, pretty much everything ...

Edit : almost everything in ONI do have durability, but they don't wear off over time ...

[sakura_sk]

46 minutes ago, MinhPham said:

And, by the way the durability thing is a dangerous idea ... what if you had to repair other things ? ladders ? tubes ? buildings ? in the real world they required maintenance too, pretty much everything ...

You will be forced to build less things and closed tamers/boilers would be impossible. It sounds interesting but I hope they don't consider it ..yet.

Also if you constantly getting "popped eardrums, soggy feet/sopping wet" something is not right... For oxygen (if pop eardrums is caused from that) using regular gas vents and not high pressure ones, fixes that. Soggy feet/sopping wet, if you are not using liquid airlocks any other case would be occasional per biome. If you want to isolate chlorine/hydrogen from you oxygen in base, gas locks made of CO2 can manage that.

However, heat (not extreme like magma, just a regular cool steam vent is enough), building underwater and going in a area with zombie spores cannot be managed any other way except from atmo suits. 

[MinhPham]

1 hour ago, sakura_sk said:

You will be forced to build less things and closed tamers/boilers would be impossible. It sounds interesting but I hope they don't consider it ..yet.

Also if you constantly getting "popped eardrums, soggy feet/sopping wet" something is not right... For oxygen (if pop eardrums is caused from that) using regular gas vents and not high pressure ones, fixes that. Soggy feet/sopping wet, if you are not using liquid airlocks any other case would be occasional per biome. If you want to isolate chlorine/hydrogen from you oxygen in base, gas locks made of CO2 can manage that.

However, heat (not extreme like magma, just a regular cool steam vent is enough), building underwater and going in a area with zombie spores cannot be managed any other way except from atmo suits. 

As i said it's true for my play style ...

The outside world is over 100kg of oxygen per tile.

Each 65x17 block is the living area for 30 dupes, the air inside is oxygen with <4000g/tile. The entrance is 2 tiles liquid airlock. Some with crude/petrol, dupes without suit on this quarter only suffer from soggy feet. Some with viscogel, because i used hand sanitizer instead of sink, and chlorine supply have a chance to break the regular crude/petrol lock, and dupes enter/leave these base will suffer from sopping wet.

And that's it, every geyser is tamed, the entire map is mined out before cycle 300, except for the magma biome which started at cycle 750 and gone at cycle 850, there is no "dangerous area", "hot biome" blah blah anymore, the 3rd picture is the entire magma biome compacted. There isn't a reachable place for dupes that could be considered "dangerous", and the main use for atmo suit is to prevent ... stress debuffs. High moral only make up for popped eardrums, soggy feet / sopping wet ==> stress ...

And ... by another way, the base game atmo suit isn't "free", sure it won't consume much power it self but you forgot all the power used by gas pump, electrolyzer .... currently it accounted for ~20% power usage of the colony

[BaloneyOs]

7 hours ago, goboking said:

Here's the thing.  You aren't the sole arbiter of what is and isn't fun.  You can scream that this isn't fun all day long, but there might be someone else whose opinion carries just as much weight as yours who disagrees.

Did I suggest otherwise? All I've done was post my opinion. Do you need me to put "IMO" in front of everything to understand that?

 

7 hours ago, goboking said:

As to your "precedent of anti-QoL" design, why is this the line you're drawing when we already pay material costs in to fertilize and irrigate crops, dupe labor to groom critters, material cost and dupe labor to tune generators, etc.?  Why are those things okay, but a few reed fibers and a bit of dupe time to patch up a suit that grants invulnerability to environmental hazards too much to ask?

You missed the point again. I'm criticizing the fact that it does nothing to address the main issue and instead is just a lazy balance pass if you can even call it that. If anything I'd argue that you're too content with them tacking on a maintenance cost for balance reasons that clearly many do find to be anti-fun and anti-QoL. It isn't even about it being "too much to ask", and if you read my other posts you'd see that I'm actually saying the opposite. Again, these are all peoples' opinions that carry just as much weight as you mentioned.

If we want to take it one step further, I could argue just applying the same band-aid fix for all balancing changes. Aquatuner does too much? Add some maintenance. Steel tiles are too powerful and can withstand infinite meteors? Those definitely need periodic patching too. Maybe we're gonna need some extra scientists or engineers to upkeep those geysers that give infinite resources as well. Do you see now how using crops and critters as examples of sustained resource drain is practically a non-sequitur, because you are actually trying to compare apples and oranges? Seems like someone here is trying to be the sole arbiter of what's balanced (and it's not me, because again I've posted elsewhere various means of rebalancing atmo suits and again did not claim that the durability breaks the game).

 

7 hours ago, goboking said:

They don't want to disincentivize its use, they want to balance it.  They're fine with us using it.  They want us to use it.  They just want us to pay a fair price for doing so.

Nerfs by nature disincentivize use. Also I'm trying to say that many people are finding it to be an anti-fun implementation, even if you believe the cost to be fair. You don't have to agree with it, but you're also not the sole arbiter of what's considered to be a fair price.

 

7 hours ago, goboking said:

But I'm the one being hyperbolic, right?

Care to elaborate what about the statement was hyperbolic? I simply responded by reflecting your tone in the hopes that you'd understand this time so that you don't try to put words in my mouth again. Let's go with your philosophy one more time: you're not the sole arbiter of what is considered hyperbolic.

 

For someone who preaches about absolution and weight of opinion, your responses suggest that you don't understand those things. In case it's still not clear let me spell it out: my opinion is just one person's opinion and has no weight over anyone else's, nor did I ever suggest that to be the case, AND no one can change that. Hopefully you believe the same goes for you.

[sakura_sk]

4 hours ago, MinhPham said:

As i said it's true for my play style ...

Well my play style looks like that in cycle 394 DLC swamp:

Spoiler

Main planet - Planetoid Oozola:

So... yeah... different play styles 

But I'm also talking about DLC and not base game with a map of 240-280 (I don't remember..) tiles width. DLC has small maps, multiple planetoids and hot environments everywhere.

Spoiler

Planetoid Camilino:

 

Planetoid Magmani:

So... Yes, I think there are "more uses" to atmo suits than just to manage "popped eardrums" and "soggy feet" debuffs which can be avoided (for me) in the first place.

To stay in topic and not -how can suits be nerfed more/less-,  I am currently neutral to the durability change. It adds more tasks to be managed but not too annoying to handle.

[Other Micah]

So, some people want to build and manage systems, others want hardcore dupe survival.  Maybe in the future, DLC can focus one way or the other.  This isn't a problem, so long as Klei is transparent with their project goals.

I still don't understand the call for nerfs.  This is a single-player game, nothing I do affects your experience.  Why tell other kids how to play in their sandbox?  I'd give myself design limitations before asking developers to devote resources to altering the game, or just mod the difficulty myself.

I'll again mention that a toggle option, much like stress reactions, should make most people happy.  Then you can model (or mod) service life all you want.

23 hours ago, Kderosa said:

I'd recommend using the eggs of the various shine bug variants as components of the disease cures which establishes yet another supply chain involving ranchers and perhaps farmers.

 

Last time I used that structure, they did.

[Kderosa]

12 hours ago, Other Micah said:

Last time I used that structure, they did.

Yes, it uses the first variant - the sun bug.  There are a few more unused ones - Royal, Coral, Azure, Abyss, and Radiant.

 

[TheMule]

On 1/22/2021 at 6:11 AM, goboking said:

They don't want to disincentivize its use, they want to balance it.

Why are you assuming that's a good thing?

I don't seen anything wrong with things being unbalanced. This isn't a MMO. Nobody forces or presses you in  playing in a certain way to stay competitive. There's not "current meta" or "emergent behavior". You do what you like to do in your games, OP or not.

I'm all for some things being OP and other things being harder. I do find suits OP, but if find there's nothing wrong with that.

The most OP thing in the game, IMHO, is stone hatches ranching, folllowed by 'all dups always in a suit' variants.

If we could teach all newbies those two things, the learning curve would be much smoother. Is that bad? Not at all.

Most of the time I play to relax, and yes the 1st thing I do is stone hatches ranching and the 2nd is to build a washroom (the 1st toilet loop, after outhouses) with integrated atmosuit docks. And yes that makes the game quite easy.

What do I do when I want something more challenging? I don't do that, plain and simple. I use crops for food and use suits only where necessary. It's a choice I have.

I don't like the idea of stone hatches or suits being "balanced". I can "balance" my own game, TYVM, by not using them, if I want to.

Now if they add an option of that, ok, I guess.
 

On 1/22/2021 at 1:29 PM, BaloneyOs said:

also not the sole arbiter of what's considered to be a fair price.

The point is that "a price" is a very lazy way of balancing things out, no matter what the said price is. Since suits are functionally OP, they could have addressed they functionality.

Just for the sake of argument, think of reducing the O2 storage from 75kg to 25. Setups like 'all dups always in suits' would be much harder to do, and way less convenient. And it has nothing to do with introducing an extra, artificial cost, but it addresses directly the nature of their OP-ness, so to speak.

What makes suits OP isn't their upkeep cost (or lack of it), it's:

1. they allow you to centralize all OP production, and take 95C O2, making O2 distribution and cooling non issues;

2. they last for longer than a cycle, making is possible to have dups 99% in suit (I used to build what I called Janus setups, that is a series of docks with checkpoints at both sides - dups stay outside a suit for a few seconds only per cycle);

3. skills completely counter their debuff - this means that having dups w/o suits makes sense only for rookies... after 100 cycles something most dups can be made suit-ready w/o any debuff, and the cost is only skill points

Just by reducing their capacity you'd nerf point 1 and 2, since you'd have different checkpoints where they are actually needed in the map.

As I wrote before, I'm not in favor of nerfing suits, but if they decide to do it anyway, at least they should do in way that fits the gameplay instead of just adding some random cost. Even better, they could make it configurable. 25kg / 50kg / 75kg

 

[babba]

"Durability" of things could be dupe maintained by a "Fixer Profession" or a "Fixer Job'".

Igor at the garage is the best mechanic, he fixes everything! 

[Natjur]

If the suits only lost durability when the suit protects the user from damage, I would understand. So using it in low o2 areas does not cause durability lost, but when walking through magma, it does cause durability lost, that would make more sense.

Currently its just 10% lost per use.
I am glad it only 'breaks' when removed, so you can use it at 1% for as long as you like and you can have it auto repaired and returned.

I am not against the idea, but I think it needs some edits. Cause the Atmo Suits are a little overpowered at the moment and make most things too 'safe'.

[sakura_sk]

5 minutes ago, Natjur said:

So using it in low o2 areas does not cause durability lost, but when walking through magma, it does cause durability lost, that would make more sense.

Walking through magma in atmo suit causes scalding. It just takes 2-3 seconds to occur if wearing an atmo suit, while bare naked in magma scalds dupes immediately.

[Natjur]

1 hour ago, sakura_sk said:

Walking through magma in atmo suit causes scalding. It just takes 2-3 seconds to occur if wearing an atmo suit, while bare naked in magma scalds dupes immediately.

I really wish a dupe walking through +1200 degrees magma killed them and remove the way dupe can hold their breath in a vacuum.

They are some insanely strong dupes!

 

[babba]

10 minutes ago, Natjur said:

I really wish a dupe walking through +1200 degrees magma killed them and remove the way dupe can hold their breath in a vacuum.

They are some insanely strong dupes!

 

Like anything in life the kind of dupe immortal feature has pro and cons.

Perhaps a "Hardcore" feature with future updated world generation features could make dupes die more easy from extreme heat and cold

Also it would be very nice if we could brew beer in a reactor.