Szczuku

[Important] Does Don't Starve need some sort of progression system for survival difficulty?

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Pop Guy    3,517
1 minute ago, Szczuku said:

[...]

I like that new events are triggered.
However, every "year" in the game (the passage of all four seasons) should be an increase in difficulty.
Example: after two years two giants arrive each season. Or, in the hordes of dogs, Vargs begin to arrive. Maybe after three years the winter becomes progressively colder or the warmer summer (forcing you to use better protections). Maybe you could experience years of famine (where almost all the vegetable food is dry in the world, even if it's not summer), or glaciations, where the world becomes an inhospitable and desert icy land. In short, even wisely recycling the elements already present in the game could offer a lot of challenge and variety to veteran players, I still do not understand what the difficulties for Klei implementing ideas that are, substantially, a "shuffling" of objects or functions already included in the game.

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Crimson Chin    473
17 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

What do I mean by this? 

For example the game could check for sever conditions to be met and when they'd be met a special event would occur or something would be added permanently.

-When a boat has been launched neutral turtles would begin spawning randomly near the shoars

-When at least one player has sailed to the 2nd level of the ocean skeleton pirates could invade durring spring

-After assembling the Moon crafting thingy full moons could have some more content to them. Maybe new lunar-themed creatures appearing durring that night

-After defeating the Fuelweaver for the 1st time Momsy and Billy could appear in the world (this one would even make sense according to the lore)

Basically as the player advances the difficulty would get higher to scale with players new equipement and discoveries. Ofc it'd stop at some point and would still allow new players that join at like day 600 to survive.

This "activation" system could allow Klei to add content that's not optional while still making early game for new player semi-easy.

Because, let's be honest here, there're only so many optional bosses and decorations that old/experienced players can put up with. I want to have new content thrown at my face and not "go explore it if you feel like it- it's optional"

Discuss.

Really awesome ideas! Yes, anything like this would be great! As many have said, something like this would be similar to terraria's "hardmode" and how the world progressively gets more challenging and rewarding as you progress. The game is in desperate need of a functional progression system.

On a side note, what ever HAPPENED to Mumsy and Billy, they did say they would follow you through the portal.. but seemed to have just... evaporated into thin air? I understand that events were cut, but kind of lame if all the things that took place in them just end up non-canon or retconned. Still waiting for them to port over forge/gorge mechanics. Such a tiny amount from the events actually made it into the game... It is such a shame, all those assets just sitting there collecting dust.

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maciu67    405
1 hour ago, Crimson Chin said:

Really awesome ideas! Yes, anything like this would be great! As many have said, something like this would be similar to terraria's "hardmode" and how the world progressively gets more challenging and rewarding as you progress. The game is in desperate need of a functional progression system

I have idea that after random player pass naughtiness level world is cursed by new Antibiome so much harder than swamp and this biome poisons the world and forces players to perform certain actions to avoid negative effects (Crimson/Corruption/Hallow?).

Edited by maciu67
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Cosheeta    272

I fully endorse the notion of letting players activate a ramping difficulty or major change in their own desired time. Without relying too much on seasons, grinding or automation.

Great examples that speak for themselves lies in Terraria.

Edited by Cosheeta

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Paddlefruit    363

I do agree that an option to have the world get harder over time would be very nice. A good challenge, because late game, things can get too easy. Like, Winter is an absolute breeze about a year in.

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maciu67    405
5 minutes ago, Canis said:

Klei is disregarding veteran players in favor of newcomers.

It has sense.

5 minutes ago, Canis said:

because as of late I'm starting to drift from it.

Please don't do this!

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Crimson Chin    473
11 minutes ago, Electroely said:

I think this may only work as a new world gen option or server game mode.

Terraria has Hardmode because the way progression works in the game, you get permanent upgrades to armor and weaponry as you play. Early on, Hardmode enemies would be far too strong for a player to kill, and later on, Pre-Hardmode enemies become a total joke without Hardmode's stat increase.

I don't think it's fair to say "if it works in Terraria it works in DST" because of how different they are.

I personally would be quite annoyed at features like these, as I enjoy DST not for its difficulty, but as a "casual survival and chat with friends" kind of game. Forced increased difficulty would make it less fun.

I mean, of course changes like these would be pretty huge, no reason there can't be a classic mode for players who want to continue playing like how it is currently. And again, too be fair DST is advertised an uncompromising survival game. With the current way progression works (there is none) you just learn until you can't learn anything else and the game just ends. The game is doomed if we continue down this path. Old players lose interest, new players learn until they can't anymore... and then lose interest. It's not healthy right now. 

Nobody is saying you can just implement a "hardmode" like mechanic and it would work 100 percent no problem, of course not, these changes would take time, but look at the recent RoT updates. They just add optional content that is more of the same. Sure you could waste your time making a boat and sailing to get glass cutters, or you could just make a dark sword in a few days. Content updates like these can't keep coming endlessly, the game is just getting loaded with filler that adds nothing to the game. Like the lunar island right now has like... two things to do on it, and then you are done. The malbatross adds NOTHING new at all. It drops... a sail and oar for you to........ sail to the .. lunar island faster... which you are uhhh done with completely by then. 

I mean of course in terraria if someone joins mid hardmode and gets no help from friends they are just going to get sacked, but usually there will be friends to help you get up to par with everyone else. Heck, maybe they can introduce some kind of system where even CHARACTERS get new abilities or something to help them join in a later state of the game. Whew, I'm getting excited just talking about it. So much potential, As of right now its still uncomfortable joining a game... like mid summer not sure what is so different. Terraria also scales some prehardmode enemies as more bosses get defeated in hardmode, DST could do the same. Enemies get harder, new attacks to old/weak prehardmode enemies as more and more progress is made.

4 minutes ago, Canis said:

A Terraria-esque progression system of difficulty would make me 100% interested in DST again, because as of late I'm starting to drift from it. It feels like Klei is disregarding veteran players in favor of newcomers.

100% agree, I want to love and play the game as much as I used to, but I just can't anymore. Sometimes I just login and immediately log off because I realize there is just nothing left for my friends and I to do. Thing about the way they are favoring these newcomers is that it is ineffective, if these newcomers stick around long enough they will just end up like us! Then they are gone too! 

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Fozzlebub    41

Yesss like the apocalypse counter and spreading of hell terrain in fall from heaven 2 and the four horsemen and avatar of wrath spawning.

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I feel like it kinda does have a progression in some ways, but I would like to have it be more pronounced in certain aspects. I wouldn't want to make it terraria though and just have an outright hardmode but that's just my personal preference and nothing more.

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Sketched_Philo    1,073
31 minutes ago, Electroely said:

I personally would be quite annoyed at features like these, as I enjoy DST not for its difficulty, but as a "casual survival and chat with friends" kind of game. Forced increased difficulty would make it less fun.

Forced difficulty already exists in DST, believe it or not....it's called hound waves increasing in sizes and frequency with the day count. Would you call for those to be removed? I don't think so(if you do just say so please and thank you). Players have adapted to it to the point that it comes naturally to make hound trap circles(or jump into wormholes). I hardly see anybody have an issue with them. Mind you, nothing in dst is forced either, hound waves are a world setting that you can toggle on and off...just like any default world option should be. Most of the seasonal giants are also situations that work in essentially, similar ways to forced difficulty, but they're based on time rather than player-accomplished conditions.

I guess my experience with games is different then, it's far easier for me and my friends to enjoy ourselves when the experience is engaging and we have something to work towards that has some thought behind it.

I wouldn't suggest an outright hardmode for DST, but players completing certain milestones making other parts of the game harder would be welcome. That's not so much forced as decided by the player, isn't it?

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Cosheeta    272
18 minutes ago, Electroely said:

I think this may only work as a new world gen option or server game mode.

Terraria has Hardmode because the way progression works in the game, you get permanent upgrades to armor and weaponry as you play. Early on, Hardmode enemies would be far too strong for a player to kill, and later on, Pre-Hardmode enemies become a total joke without Hardmode's stat increase.

I don't think it's fair to say "if it works in Terraria it works in DST" because of how different they are.

I personally would be quite annoyed at features like these, as I enjoy DST not for its difficulty, but as a "casual survival and chat with friends" kind of game. Forced increased difficulty would make it less fun.

 
My impression is that Terraria has a lot more breathing room for casual chatting than positively any circumstances in DST.

And a proper progression in DST for stronger actual worthwhile gear I'd assume is a naturally part of the wishes for this "leveling system" proposition.

I wouldn't endorse more difficulty if more rewards wasn't included. Besides the best part of the proposition mentions it too; difficulty that the player chooses to activate. It's at your own pace. If you are uneasy about difficulty increasing there is time to prepare still. Once survival becomes stale you can evolve the world instead of resetting everything every time. DST is in my opinion unbalanced when it comes to choosing your own pace, because it's either all at the same time or follows it's own cycle independent from your choices so you have to wait around for it or deal with it unprepared.

Whenever new prospects are introduced into DST (new difficulties) it's not balanced for incremental experiences. They're stacked on top of and amongst everything else and for those reasons the rewards are forced to be balanced for this same stale environment players find themselves in. The ruins are currently the only second step, an advancement into the game, shared with moon islands on the same floor I'd argue. But these won't change the surroundings. You'll walk home to the same place with better (although in my opinion all too fragile) gear with nothing to use it on.

So... The dangers once entirely cleared out gives rewards useful for beating the dangers you just left behind themselves; so why bother with dangers? Then, using it anywhere else is considered a waste... (and it is.) It's not steps in a complete stairway, one thing leading to another it's just; get thing there, now you can get it again but it'll be mildly easier? Oh you used it on everyday nuisances so that everyday nuisances wasn't as much of a nuisance? Well that's not endorsed, it's gone now in an instant, so have fun going through the dangers to get those tools again. Hours and hours and hours.

I'd say, give us something (a reason to play) to use the gear on, and stop with the stingy durability for all those hours it takes to hoard ingredients. So the advanced gear can withstand and levitate everyday life without feeling like you're throwing away the effort. But that's only my take on things.

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Sunset Skye    4,542
28 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Forced difficulty already exists in DST, believe it or not....it's called hound waves increasing in sizes and frequency with the day count. Would you call for those to be removed? I don't think so(if you do just say so please and thank you)

I don't think hound waves should be removed entirely, but... they're definitely an outdated mechanic that needs major changes. As they are now, they're just tedious and annoying. They bring you useful resources like gems and monster meat, at the cost of either running to some nearby mobs or going to base and letting them die to your hound trap. This is of course the best case scenario, them coming during something that you can put on hold for a few minutes, but it's entirely possible that hounds will show up in the middle of a boss fight and force you to deal with both at the same time.

In DS, hounds are not an issue in the late game, because you can just panflute them and kill them off one by one. In DST, though, attacking one hound will wake all the others up, so you've really got no option except taking them to something that can kill them... unless you just relog when they first start barking, which is what almost everyone I know does at this point once hound attacks escalate to the point of being annoying.

Hound attacks are a part of the game that is not fun and is not challenging once you understand how it works, it's just an annoyance. It's probably the worst example you could give of "difficulty" increasing over time.

28 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Mind you, nothing in dst is forced either, hound waves are a world setting that you can toggle on and off...just like any default world option should be.

The game is designed around default world gen settings, and it's not a solution to simply turn something off. This is the kind of thinking that has let disease stay in the game unchanged for so long, just because it's generally accepted that you're able to turn it off.

28 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Most of the seasonal giants are also situations that work in essentially, similar ways to forced difficulty, but they're based on time rather than player-accomplished conditions.

The seasonal giants, or rather, giant, once Bearger has spawned once and you've stowed him away somewhere, only come 0-1 times every year around the same time. Seasonal giants aren't an example of difficulty that increases over time, they're a way to catch new players off guard at the end of their first time surviving winter and after surviving a year respectively. They come on repeat winters/autumns because of their useful drops, but they are not more difficult at all the second, third, or even three-hundredth time around.

28 minutes ago, Sketched_Philo said:

That's not so much forced as decided by the player, isn't it?

DST is, for the most part, balanced around public servers. If you regularly play an endless server, for example, you can't tell 5+ other people "no, I don't want any of us to have this content actually". You can only do that if you're playing a private world with people who play the game the exact same way as you, and people shouldn't be forced to play private worlds with a very limited amount of people, just because other people want Terraria Hardmode in DST, especially after nearly all the new content added in DST since RoG is 100% optional.

Edited by Sunset Skye
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Sketched_Philo    1,073

hi field.

3 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

I don't think hound waves should be removed entirely, but... they're definitely an outdated mechanic that needs major changes. As they are now, they're just tedious and annoying. They bring you useful resources like gems and monster meat, at the cost of either running to some nearby mobs or going to base and letting them die to your hound trap. This is of course the best case scenario, them coming during something that you can put on hold for a few minutes, but it's entirely possible that hounds will show up in the middle of a boss fight and force you to deal with both at the same time.

in your own reply you've stated the exact thing I was talking about: players found ways to adapt to the forced difficulty. you can:

-run to nearby mobs

-let them die to the hound trap

Hound waves show up at somewhat predictable intervals in the lategame: because you can decide when you'll fight nearly every single boss , if hounds show up to the fight, you either failed to consider how long it would take you to kill the boss, or just failed to consider when was the last time hounds showed up. This is not unavoidable. This is preventable and predictable.

10 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

The game is designed around default world gen settings, and it's not a solution to simply turn something off. This is the kind of thinking that has let disease stay in the game unchanged for so long, just because it's generally accepted that you're able to turn it off.

If you'd like to play the game a certain way, the developers have given the playerbase the option in their settings. There is no need to play by the default settings the developers have chosen: they themselves approve of different ways of play for just including that option. Don't like disease?Turn it off.  I don't enjoy players who play with walrus camps set to lots but I'm not here to invalidate that way of play. I don't like disease, but if it's still there, it's surely because the developers who created it find it balanced and want it to stay there. Your assumption that players have made it stay the way like that is no more than that.

13 minutes ago, Sunset Skye said:

DST is, for the most part, balanced around public servers. If you regularly play an endless server, for example, you can't tell 5+ other people "no, I don't want any of us to have this content actually". You can only do that if you're playing a private world with people who play the game the exact same way as you, and people shouldn't be forced to play private worlds with a very limited amount of people, just because other people want Terraria Hardmode in DST, especially after nearly all the new content added in DST since RoG is 100% optional.

The settings of the world are up to the host and whether the people that join the server will be fine with them or not. You absolutely can decide the settings that are on the server you host and tell them, outright "no, I'm not interested in playing with this content on." I hate to put it like this, but if you can host a server, you can play with non-default settings, the consequences being that maybe you'll get less players.

Also, dichotomy time:

-The new content in RoG is 100% optional

-The new content in DsT is also optional, other than the character refreshes.

 

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sudoku    18
Quote

I agree. Back when they first said they were making new content for DST it was named "Through the Ages" and that had me really excited about the implications that they were adding content based on how long you survived but unfortunately i guess that concept was scrapped. 

However I think increasing difficulty once you survive a year would really allow for some great replayability. They sort of already have some mechanics that work this way like increased treeguard spawns, increased varg spawns, and of course tougher hound waves but I would also like to see maybe enhanced seasonal bosses for the second time you fight them (tougher/new move perhaps), as well as new events( like frog rain) that trigger the longer you survive. These could be weather related (thunderstorms/prolonged rain, blizzards/ increased cold or maybe even an onscreen effect like sandstorms, droughts/hotter) or mob related (all spider dens produce spider warriors instead of regular spiders, pigs ignore your gifts, anything that makes surviving tougher. I can see why they have held off on because most players most likey dont play past the first year so alot of that content wouldnt be seen by the general playerbase, but I think they could use development time for a single update like the reworks to accomplish the basics. 

I stated something like this yesterday in another thread. Basically events trigger the longer you survive making the difficulty rise the longer you play.

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Szczuku    9,231

Guys I meant a bit more calm progression system and not just a copy of Terraria's "You've defeated this boss so now the game is 3 times harder"

The main point of this progresion system would be to allow Klei to add new non-optional content without making early game a living heck for new players

Edited by Szczuku

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maciu67    405
6 hours ago, AdventZen said:

Killing Deerclops a second time onwards immediately starts a Winter-long Ice Age, where the World Temperature drops severely, Birds no longer spawn and most mobs stay inside as if it's Night-time, making the last few days of Winter extremely harsh, but not affecting early players.

Sounds deadly.

6 hours ago, AdventZen said:

Petrified Forests now host a Blighted Comet, a fragment of the Moon surrounded by Lunar turf and Diseased Bushes/Tufts/Saplings. Mining said Comet yields Cyan Gems, used to craft Moon Amulets on the Celestial Altar, which give you the Enlightenment effect without Gestalts spawning, but lowers your sanity somewhat rapidly. (Think of a Nightmare Amulet, but Enlightenment. Could be useful for Ruins)

Maybe "liitle aporkalipse" in DST.

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Voidbarker    148
6 hours ago, AdventZen said:

I absolutely love the implications of this and I wholeheartedly wish Klei would consider these suggestions. The closest we have to that is the Antlion's death stopping the ground-cracking thing, but that's kinda lame. Some brainstorming of my own:
 

  • Upon reaching the Lunar Island for the first time, players experience Enlightenment on every Full Moon, and Gestalts appear like night-eyes, fading away as you approach them. Just a general "Oh poop, that's where the Island came from?!" moment every 20 days.
     
  • Killing Deerclops a second time onwards immediately starts a Winter-long Ice Age, where the World Temperature drops severely, Birds no longer spawn and most mobs stay inside as if it's Night-time, making the last few days of Winter extremely harsh, but not affecting early players.
     
  • Upon killing the Fuelweaver, Nights have a small chance (5%) to be dimly-lit, similar to a Full Moon, but not as bright.
     
  • Petrified Forests now host a Blighted Comet, a fragment of the Moon surrounded by Lunar turf and Diseased Bushes/Tufts/Saplings. Mining said Comet yields Cyan Gems, used to craft Moon Amulets on the Celestial Altar, which give you the Enlightenment effect without Gestalts spawning, but lowers your sanity somewhat rapidly. (Think of a Nightmare Amulet, but Enlightenment. Could be useful for Ruins)
     
  • Killing a Varg skips the next 3 Hound waves. (Please. Hound Waves are a good Memento Mori, but they also heavily diminish your ability to explore the seas, plus Varg could really have some use)
     
  • idk its 4am here i'll think about stuff when i wake up k bye

this is some of the good stuff.

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0rutyna0    489

There is another way to entertain the veterans of this game. Just make a competitive mode where players on the same map will compete with each other. For example, who will collect more resources or gain more points in the allotted time. For this, it is not necessary to change the existing combat mechanics, this competition can be bloodless. If those for whom the game has become too easy compete with each other, then it will cease to be so easy, right? In addition, the collected statistics of such games will show which characters are REALLY effective, and which need strengthening.

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ADM    2,205

I'd love more random events like this, also, it could be better to apply this for the selected players than global world, like for hounds, (or treeguard from now) depending of age component of each player and meet conditions, and then I'm good with it ! We need this

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Ogrecakes    1,472

More difficult content should arrive on subsequent years survived.

1) Giants could grow larger, hit harder, and have their speed increase.

2) Toadstool could plague the overworld on second autumn, spreading disease, maybe causing acid rain if he isn't dealt with.

3) Snowstorms could be added to winter, creating a similar effect to flooding from Shipwrecked but with snow instead.

4) The Bee Queen could start over pollinating in second spring, causing hay fever if she isn't dealt with.

5) Summer could get an actual giant, the Pugalisk might be a good idea since it would explain whats petrifying all the trees.

6) Varg's being added to hound waves?

 

This won't interrupt the new player experience, but will provide extra challenge to veteran players.

 

And for GODS SAKES FIX THE BUGS WITH FOSSILS BEING INDESTRUCTABLE BARRIERS, WALLS BEING ABUSED, PLAYERS GLITCHING THEMSELVES OUTSIDE OF BOUNDS, GETTING THE ANCIENT GUARDIAN STUCK ON A DAMN PILLAR, EVERY OTHER ABUSABLE MECHANIC/BUG.

 

(PS, I'm already working on a mod with some of the features i've mentioned above, so far I've competed (1), part of (2) but I can't figure out how to let the overworld know if the Toadstool is still alive, adding a snowstorm overlay to (3), partly porting over Hayfever for (4), (5), and (6). If anyone feels like modding this stuff in go right ahead, preferably send me a link).

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Owlrus98    423

Mechanically it would have to make sense. Why does the world suddenly give you different shadow creatures?; why does the rain turn to acid rain and hurt you?; and why are things suddenly more difficult? Those are things that need transitory states that fit well in the world of don't starve in order to enhance the experience while also giving reasons for the sudden changes, but would be a welcome one in the end.

The other problem comes from newcomers. While I understand that the focus on newcomers are what's upsetting veteran players as of late due to game mechanics not posing a challenge to them thus not making the long-term game interesting, you have to see it from a company perspective. Klei definitely appreciates the long standing player base that has been around for awhile giving advice on the game forums, however from a business standpoint tailoring to both sides of the coin is what will make them more money in the end; they want more players to buy their game and the skins that go with it, but they want veteran players to enhance the game by giving educated input like these threads to improve said product while also selling to them. In short, it's very unlikely they will pick and choose one side over the other in the end as they have too much to lose by doing so (kinda like asking a parent to choose favorites). Increase the difficulty, you drive away less-experienced players, decrease the difficulty, you'll upset the ones that have given their all to the game and then some. 

Klei likely wants compromises between both sides that will benefit everyone in the end. For example, having an optional player-controlled event that is available after a certain day that ramps up the difficulty of the game while increasing the rewards would benefit veteran players while also not hindering newer ones by forcing them to adhere to said challenges without them choosing to do so (shadow pieces/ancient fuelweaver come to mind as an example). If people want changes for the game on a larger scale, they will have to appeal to the grand scheme of Klei themselves with ideas that benefit all parties involved as they are more likely to implement such in order to make the game grander and better for everyone. 

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