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Wormwood's Balance Problem


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wormywood.png.9756ce8f0341acc1ffba8f581d92d77e.png

Wormwood has quickly become my favorite DST character, and I've been playing DS since the Beta days.

But something feels...wrong about his Green Thumb craftings.

With how easy Living Logs are to make, playing Wormwood turns you into a crafting slave for your team: sit down, heal, produce wood, heal, repeat. 

his crafts are unique and great to have, but having the logs be made ONLY with health makes them too easy to abuse (especially given they were supposed to be a rare material before WW!)

So here's my suggestion:

24?cb=20130314185439 Living logs: -20 20?cb=20190617114634; -10 20?cb=20190617114749

Q: Why? A: Health can easily be recovered with Honey Poultice or Compost; Sanity will need something else, like a break to go plant some trees! it also makes sense to lose sanity from breaking your arm

latest?cb=20190208165141Brumble trap: 1x24?cb=20130314185439 3x24?cb=20121216143420

Q: Well that doesn't really change much given how easy stingers are to get! A: Exactly, i feel ANY extensive use for stingers is good, my bases are always full of unused ones! This makes the recipe slighly more expensive and more different to the Tooth Trap, making the latter not completely outclassed by Bruble traps

latest?cb=20190208165141 Compost Wrap

This is actually something I wish was buffed: only 30 health for a recipe that is much more expensive than Honey Poultice and can only be used by Wormwood? I wish it would restore 4020?cb=20190617114634 instead than 30, which is 1020?cb=20190617114634 more than what Honey Poultice offers (which is easier to make, all characters can use and takes less time to use).


Here's a little suggestion as well: what if spring Wormwood left pickable flowers and ferns every now and then, and not just an aesthetic trail? Very rare chance would be great and unique

 

What do You think?

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6 hours ago, WormwoodPotShoe said:

wormywood.png.9756ce8f0341acc1ffba8f581d92d77e.png

[snip, minus the image cuz it's cute]

I think the ideas you've proposed are pretty nice, I agree with these points. You have no idea how many times a Wortox has just walked up to me and started dropping souls, and I just sighed and did my thing.

The extra sanity lost for Living Logs... I still don't think that would stop people from doing it anyway, as sanity is something not to be cared about too much, especially when you can recover it so easily as Wormwood. Maybe it could require something physically.. like an actual log, so he can.. socket that onto his arm, or something.

I think the Bramble Trap recipe upping on the stingers is a really good thing. Stingers aren't useful anyway. All this does is make the Bramble Traps a liiiiiittle less difficult to mass produce.

Compost Wrap kinda sucks. Either needs a recipe nerf, a health buff, or some way to speed up or cancel the animation. Maybe you can keep right clicking as you apply it to "Hurry it up"

These are good ideas! Would definitely balance out Wormwood

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Worm like Max is the slave.  Planting or making living logs.  I have also suggested in another thread that Wormwood gain in the rain.  This would be great in the caves.  He could gain sanity or health or both until he gets 100% where he would start to lose. Give him something where he can be more useful in the caves.

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Sanity's already hard to manage with Wormwood, plus as I've said before, he has less access to Treeguards (if playing solo), so less access to living logs already.

I agree with the compost wrap thing, the animation is way too long to be useful and the materials can be kind of hard to get in certain situations.

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47 minutes ago, 0rutyna0 said:

For me, playing solo for Wormwood is much more difficult than playing for Wes. Not being able to be treated with food is too big flaw. Maybe should give this woody skin boy 20% damage protection?

No that's boring, the food downside is fun and makes you play strategically 

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12 minutes ago, 0rutyna0 said:

Not being able to be treated with food is too big flaw.

Well you see the problem is that this downside checks off all of the boxes for a good downside:

-Adds difficulty to some areas but doesn't remove the potential to do them

-Isn't easily negated or ignored

-Provides a nessary way to change up your playstyle.

There is also the problem that Warly had eoth his drawback, what othe disadvantage could be given? Sure a plant may burn faster or wither in heat, but those are extremely situational. The one we have now make Wormwood interesting instead of a character that walks around with pratically no downsides and thus becomes boring.

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2 hours ago, Paddlefruit said:

Sanity's already hard to manage with Wormwood

 

Scientifically speaking, you're wrong. Not only can he quickly drain it by collecting wood, a valuable resource in it's own right, but he can gain it just as easally by planting pinecones and seeds, so really, he has some of the best sanity managment in the game, second only to Maxwell

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Hound traps are already better than bramble traps, so there's no reason to nerf them. Also, I've never had living log issues past the first couple seasons. Treeguards spawn very commonly as the day count increases. Wormwood's ability to make living logs is only a minor benefit, it's not nearly as useful as some people think. If youre being a living log slave, you're usually wasting your time. I can't count the amount of times I've seen a wormwood and wortox waste their time making tons of logs, just so no one would ever use the logs. There's only a couple useful items you can make with living logs, so there's no reason to make tons of living logs.

They should decrease animation time of compost wrap and increase it to 40 hp from 30. It's not worth making compared to other healing methods

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4 hours ago, Paddlefruit said:

Sanity's already hard to manage with Wormwood

You can gain 5 sanity from digging up and replanting a sapling/grass tuft. He's one of the easiest characters for sanity management. 

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21 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

Hound traps are already better than bramble traps,

Depends on the mob. If you are dealing with like low health grouping mobs then brambles are preferable. You can easily tear through mobs like spiders and maybe nightmare splmunkeys with bramble traps. If dealing with higher hp mobs, such as varg farming or spider queens, then the tooths are preferable. It just depends on what mobs your dealing with.

26 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

There's only a couple useful items you can make with living logs, so there's no reason to make tons of living logs.

I consider wormwood of like a more immmediate living log gatherer then a mass living log gatherer. The best example is that you would use treeguards/poison birchnuts to mass gather to make a bunch or ruins equipment, but you would use wormwood for like a dark sword or the shadow manipulator, a more indevidual product maker instead of a mass producer.

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Logs are not that rare once you get into the late part of the first year and beyond. Maxwell or woody on your team you will hit tree guards often. Your nerf also doesn't really address it imo, because sanity with WW as one of the replies said, is easy to manage.

 

Both brambles and tooth trap are close enough as far as resource rarity that I find it negligible. You'll be swimming in hound teeth whose only real competing item is sewing kits and grass and logs are literally everywhere. TT's also do 20 more damage a hit and are better for solo targets. I think both are basically close enough that I'm not sure I think brambles would need a nerf. Maybe have TT do more damage if anything.

 

If I was going to change stuff about WW, is that his bramble husk is kinda niche in that it's only really usefull for picking cactus. The other perks are far to niche and low impact and the damage mitigation is crap for something that requires two LL.

 

That and make is wild crops not rot when bloomed, or rot much slower than normal. Wild crops is his main perk but he has the same problem that farms do in that meatballs and berry bushes are just better and food isn't an issue even during winter with ice as filler. However if they didn't rot, you'd basically have a decent convenience factor for having a supply of food that is prepped for a season and your teamates could work on more important macro tasks and less time food searching.

 

WW is kinda of a base ***** right now. If they focused less on resources/farms with his perks and maybe more on useful abilities in his green thumb tab he might be less of a living log factory.3

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20 hours ago, WormwoodPotShoe said:

24?cb=20130314185439 Living logs: -20 20?cb=20190617114634; -10 20?cb=20190617114749

Q: Why? A: Health can easily be recovered with Honey Poultice or Compost; Sanity will need something else, like a break to go plant some trees! it also makes sense to lose sanity from breaking your arm

The answer does not really make sense for me: Wormwood can easily restore 10 sanity by planting any kind of seed or plant, it's almost for free. But restoring health can't be done the usual way by eating some kind of healing food, especially the plants you recently planted. The penalties of low sanity while being healed by Wortox & spamming Living Logs can be easily negated by having a Willow using her BERNIE! nearby. Being forced to have at least 10 sanity to create Living Logs can again be fixed by creating a Sanity Station but it won't be that easily fixable away from the base down in the depths, which will make him again more dependend on his base.

20 hours ago, WormwoodPotShoe said:

latest?cb=20190208165141 Compost Wrap

This is actually something I wish was buffed: only 30 health for a recipe that is much more expensive than Honey Poultice and can only be used by Wormwood? I wish it would restore 4020?cb=20190617114634 instead than 30, which is 1020?cb=20190617114634 more than what Honey Poultice offers (which is easier to make, all characters can use and takes less time to use).

I disagree that the recipe is harder to make than Honey Poultice: Manure can be easily stacked by spawning a Werepig (160 Manure per Werepig, which is enough for 32 Compost Wraps), Rot appears over time everywhere, and Nitre is anyway considered useless by many players. I can easily stack 20 Compost Wraps in 2 days, Honey Poultice takes way more time and Reeds do not regrow as fast as manure. Dunno about increasing the healing effect of that item as it literally allows you to use 1x Nitre + 2x Rot to heal yourself by 2020?cb=20190617114634, the only thing I want is to reduce the duration of the healing animation, outside of fights you can easily heal yourself by using a tent, during fights that item is useless as the enemies don't wait for you to till you heal yourself.


Other than that I'd like to see Water Balloons as an alternative to the Hamlet Sprinkler for Wormwood, that would making a base in the Swamp more effective for Wormwood. Right now Water Balloons don't add any wetness to plants and so they won't grow faster.

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On 20/08/2019 at 10:00 AM, WormwoodPotShoe said:

(especially given they were supposed to be a rare material before WW!)

rare is a strong word. if you focus enough you can get some stacks of living logs in the first autumn, and later on you have better ways to farm it

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Honestly, producing large amounts of living logs really isn't that useful (except for maybe the first autumn). Once tree guards start popping up in pairs, you should be getting more then enough logs. Mass-producing them is really only useful if you want a headstart on a bramble trap field or maybe mushroom farms.

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On 20/8/2019 at 10:00 AM, WormwoodPotShoe said:

latest?cb=20190208165141 Compost Wrap

This is actually something I wish was buffed: only 30 health for a recipe that is much more expensive than Honey Poultice and can only be used by Wormwood? I wish it would restore 4020?cb=20190617114634 instead than 30, which is 1020?cb=20190617114634 more than what Honey Poultice offers (which is easier to make, all characters can use and takes less time to use).

Personally I think +30 health must stay in that way, but the cost of ingredients should be a bit less.

Current one for Compost Wrap: 5 Manure + 2 Nitre + 2 Rot.

Personally, I think: 4 Manure + 3 Nitre.

"Why not Rot?" Manure & Nitre are easy to get in the early days, unlike Rot. Days after, Rot turns irrelevant due to have other methods for recover health.

(inb4 But the methods to gain health should be difficult.

Yeah ok, well, if we look around us, we can see the little Wortox getting Health for FREE since can get souls from any murder, even the ones made by other players or mobs punching themselves.)

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20 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

Yeah ok, well, if we look around us, we can see the little Wortox getting Health for FREE since can get souls from any murder, even the ones made by other players or mobs punching themselves.)

Yeah because that's what an upside looks like, and his downside is completely different from wormwoods. 

Edit, confused comments removed portion

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1 minute ago, Brago-sama said:

Look man, you just gotta learn how to play differently with wormwood, and if you don't like him, that's completely ok.

Ok, let's see how I start with you:

Personally I have no problem playing with Wormwood, but that don't mean he's good with his current status (same situation with Warly today), and I saw people having issues playing with him in diverse servers. This is not the only thread talking about a way to fix the Health on Wormwood.

It's all just "coincidence"? I don't think so.

10 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

That's why we have 15 different characters in the game. Find one with a playstyle you are ok with. 

I remind you that not everybody plays exclusively Winona and Willow, however, a lot of users aked for a change and eventually we got the "Rebalance" annoucement. 

If we apply your reasoning, so, the changes for dst characters should never be made...

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Yeah I merged the two comments in your original post in my head thinking you wrote everything but I'm down for some discussion 

26 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

It's all just "coincidence"? I don't think so.

So you're just going to assume with just a few posts that he needs some rework?

I could just as easily say it's just a loud minority. The people complacent with him would have no reason to post anything as they're fine with him. In fact just look at all the comments in these threads saying the opposite 

26 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

If we apply your reasoning, so, the changes for dst characters should never be made...

My reasoning applies only to comments saying he should be easier. All I see is whining saying he's too hard and trying to apply "fixes" for him.

My thoughts on reworks are different, separate and will stay that way unless you want to open a new topic on it as it's completely different and has no bearing on how I feel about all this wormwood whining

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32 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

but that don't mean he's good with his current status (same situation with Warly today),

But wormwood and warly are good? Sire they require knowlage to use but they aren't bad. They both provide useful and powerful upsides to the team while having interesting downsides. Its okay to have a character that isn't meant for new players to the game. They give you these wide verity of characters but it doesn't mean they all have to be noob friendly. Take wolfgang for example, strong, tough, useful for experined people but is poor for new ones. Having these downsides doesn't make them bad it makes them interesting. Its interesting to have this chef which has a wide verity of food and thus demands to have diiferent foods and its interesting that this plant doesn't gain or lose health because he doesn't have the body part that heals/hurts him from foods. Its okay to not like the downside but its another thing entirely to say hes bad for it because they actually affect them then being some factor in the background which you will barely notice. 

44 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

If we apply your reasoning, so, the changes for dst characters should never be made...

Thats is idiotic. Klei is trying to rebalence them so that they are intereating. Maybe all character will eventually have downsides that make them as interesting as wormwood and warly, a chacter with a good upside but a constant downside, and I hope because otherwise the borings ones will remain boring.

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