Wormwood's Balance Problem

[Tapirus]

11 hours ago, Brago-sama said:

I could just as easily say it's just a loud minority. The people complacent with him would have no reason to post anything as they're fine with him. In fact just look at all the comments in these threads saying the opposite 

Well, it's interesting talk about minority in this situations, becuase DST is being played by over 1000 players out there, however, ¿Those 1000 players are posting here in the forums? Not really, maybe less of 150 actually. 

I'm giving my points based on play servers with others players, especially in pub servers (you know, those places where many special mods and the console commands are not in your side)

11 hours ago, Brago-sama said:

My reasoning applies only to comments saying he should be easier. All I see is whining saying he's too hard and trying to apply "fixes" for him.

*Reminds the time when Winona was called "Wilson 2.0, plain, boring and stupid" several times and the stuff about Warbucks*

I doubt that's "whining" actually, people it's being pretty polite compared to previous problems in the community.

11 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

Its okay to have a character that isn't meant for new players to the game. They give you these wide verity of characters but it doesn't mean they all have to be noob friendly. Take wolfgang for example, strong, tough, useful for experined people but is poor for new ones. 

Ironically, the called "Holy Trinity" (Wolfgang, Wicker & WX-78) is one the reasons of why people asked for a rebalance, since was argued that "those character are way more easy to play and kill bosses than the rest". But, well, that's another matter of discussion...

11 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

Klei is trying to rebalence them so that they are intereating.

Yes, but I consider fair that people post ideas constantly for future changes.

By example Winona, after her new update, people wanted a fix to the hunger penalty, and eventually the penalty was lowered. So, I don't see problems if Wormwood & Warly gets a small fix.

[Brago-sama]

57 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

Well, it's interesting talk about minority in this situations, becuase DST is being played by over 1000 players out there, however, ¿Those 1000 players are posting here in the forums? Not really, maybe less of 150 actually. 

Then why even bring this up

1 hour ago, Tapirus said:

This is not the only thread talking about a way to fix the Health on Wormwood.

It's all just "coincidence"? I don't think so.

The servers I can't argue as I don't play on PC bit here on the ps4 there are plenty of wormwoods here, a few on thier own, many in pubs.

Again, I said it before, I could try using the argument of a loud minority, but I don't  because it's as idiotic as saying you see a few people with problems playing him and a couple posts here and there complaining.

We don't have the numbers and it's just not wise to say if wormwood needs a rework or not merely by player reactions, especially after only a few months after he's been released. I could see maybe if he has a glaring flaw but he doesn't have such a flaw, only a good downside, leveled by a good upside.

57 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

*Reminds the time when Winona was called "Wilson 2.0, plain, boring and stupid" several times and the stuff about Warbucks*

I doubt that's "whining" actually, people it's being pretty polite compared to previous problems in the community.

Since you keep bringing it up fine, let's talk about it.

Each character rework was done on a case by case basis. You pick the character apart, see if it was balanced and or boring and see how to change it.

Winnona needed the rework because she was indeed boring a Wilson 2.0.... warbucks, brushing the whole supposedly offensive caricatures aside was indeed a Singleplayer maxwell 2.0 which added to why they let him go

 

What can you argue of wormwood that is unbalanced and is in need of rework.

He cannot heal quickly but his upside of growing food in staggering amounts (vegetables mind you, some of the longer lasting food types) and can procure living logs more quickly endgame with the right setup. That along with his armor with its gathering upsides and special traps (traps that can easily farm splumonkeys farm nightmare fuel)

His upsides are somewhat balanced by his downsides, unlike say, pre reworked willow who had nothing but downsides and was re-worked 2nd because of it. Winnona had little to bring to the table and you could make an argument by breaking her down and telling us why she was boring (still kinda is but still) He's certainly not uninteresting, (subjective yes, but in this case at least valid) as he has you making you change your playstyle.

When you break wormwood down, all I see is a character finely tuned to a different playstyle that brings good things to the table unlike the Pre-reworked character and a few single digit people whining that he match the other characters more closely as they refuse to accept his downsides 

[Brago-sama]

You know what let's actually list out wormwoods upsides and downsides and see what irks you people so much

Downsides 

•Cannot heal via food (a true downside)

•takes 25% more damage from fire (negligible as attacks that set you alight are rare and he isn't as flammable as he was in singleplayer)

•loses sanity when choping down trees, picking flowers, uprooting plants (good Downside/an upside if utilized properly)

•Attracts bees in spring (negligible)

UPSIDES 

•Can plant seeds of any variety directly on the ground, no need to make farms (a great upside, so good it was balanced before hand to make the food rot)

•armor that can pick cactus and bramble plants for zero damage(good) as well doing aoe damage when struck (meh, situational)

•traps that do Aoe damage, great for farming mobs that attack in packs (splumonkeys)

•Gains 10 sanity when planting anything (good synergy with his sanity downside. Can easily control your sanity levels, 2nd only to Maxwell)

•crafts living logs for 20 hearts a piece (negligible unless you're in late game and have had a spider farm running non stop, which is easily doable)

•Gains a speed boost during spring in varying amounts, up to a 1.2x boost in speed (around 20%) for a 2x increase in hunger. (Can be seen as a downside but wormwoods upside of food creation easily negates said downside)

•Friends with lureplants (almost entirely useless but still nice to note)

‐-------------------------

From this we see wormwood has  6 upsides (I wont count lureplants as it's very inconsequential) all very useful (he even has a speed boost, one of the most powerful stats ingame)

He has 4 downsides, 2 of which are inconsequential. You only have a problem with the first one. All these upsides and you're asking for him to be made easier. No this is just people refusing to accept that one downside, and not the actual problem of an imbalanced character 

The safety net of incremental healing via butterflies, carrots, late game perogi, honey ham etc, now forced to go out of your way to farm for methods of healing less then ideal. When you compare that to his upsides, in my eyes it's no contest, he's nicely balanced. And in multiplayer, is the food god/healer, for a price 

 

[Tapirus]

21 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

Then why even bring this up

I consider talk about minority & majority it´s very complex since not everybody it´s posting in this web.

25 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

The servers I can't argue as I don't play on PC bit here on the ps4 there are plenty of wormwoods here, a few on thier own, many in pubs.

Again, I said it before, I could try using the argument of a loud minority, but I don't  because it's as idiotic as saying you see a few people with problems playing him and a couple posts here and there complaining.

I see, the situation with pubs in PC it´s different,and I said, personally I have no problems playing with him but I consider important see if others have some difficulty in general. 

41 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

Since you keep bringing it up fine, let's talk about it.

Each character rework was done on a case by case basis. You pick the character apart, see if it was balanced and or boring and see how to change it.

Winnona needed the rework because she was indeed boring a Wilson 2.0.... warbucks, brushing the whole supposedly offensive caricatures aside was indeed a Singleplayer maxwell 2.0 which added to why they let him go

What can you argue of wormwood that is unbalanced and is in need of rework.

He cannot heal quickly but his upside of growing food in staggering amounts (vegetables mind you, some of the longer lasting food types) and can procure living logs more quickly endgame with the right setup. That along with his armor with its gathering upsides and special traps (traps that can easily farm splumonkeys farm nightmare fuel)

Yeah, but again, see people having issues with his Helth system and I think is fair if they want suggets his own thought about it.

10 minutes ago, Brago-sama said:

He has 4 downsides, 2 of which are inconsequential. You only have a problem with the first one. All these upsides and you're asking for him to be made easier. No this is just people refusing to accept that one downside, and not the actual problem of an imbalanced character 

As I said (again), personally I have no problem playing with Wormwood but I think the people asking for some help should be taken in consideration, same with the ones who plays Warly. 

(also, Wormwood can eat caps.)

 

[Frashaw27]

17 minutes ago, Tapirus said:

some help should be taken in consideration, same with the ones who plays Warly. 

Okay so I have a idea that might fix all of this arguing about people playing characters that they might have a bad time bexause they don't understand gravity of the downside. Add a challenge rating below the character portrait, thats it. It technically already happened with the forge so why not bring it back for regualr play? One star=easy, characters like willow, wilson, and wx. Two stars=Intermediate, characters like woodie, warly, and webber. Three stars=Hard, characters like maxwell, wormwood, and wes. You can even have a chart in the bottom right corner for the difficulty. It won't stop the issue, but it will allow them to figure out what they are going to get when playing the character.

[maradyne]

2 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

Add a challenge rating below the character portrait, thats it.

I'm a fan of this. Single Player introduced players to the wilder pros/cons on a scaling system by gating characters behind XP and in-game achievements. That system is gone now, so we could use some form of replacement. Presently, people dive into more complex characters with little to no game experience or mastery of the basic mechanics, and expect it to go well...surprise surprise when it doesn't.

[Petit Citron]

20 hours ago, Tapirus said:

Ironically, the called "Holy Trinity" (Wolfgang, Wicker & WX-78) is one the reasons of why people asked for a rebalance, since was argued that "those character are way more easy to play and kill bosses than the rest". But, well, that's another matter of discussion...

I would say those characters are far from being easy to manage. They're just part of a so called metagame people are used to play for years, having watched a lot of poor Youtubers claiming those are the best and nothing else interesting could be done outside of this meta. Thanks Klei for trying to give us new possibilities that need experience and testing.

 

Wormood, and, in a smaller scale, Wortox, are so different from what we are used to, I understand they can appear confusing, maybe weak to some players, even experienced ones.