BaloneyOs Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 Easily one of the best new additions to the launch upgrade, traits have added an incredible amount of variation to map generation. Only shame at the moment is that its fun factor is severely being hampered by the fact that you are forced to spend copious amounts of time getting or avoiding certain traits/combos. Currently I can't think of a single reason for this to be randomized other than to inflate playtime since they know for certain that people will spend time rolling. For example, you start an Aridio or Oassise run specifically for wanting to tackle the heat challenge. For that purpose you'd want to avoid some combination of glaciers and frozen core. Playing Arboria for the challenge of resource limitations? Maybe I don't want gold amalgam geodes or slime molds. Boulders actually create some interesting temperature interactions but to some, that perk is debatable. The part that's not debatable though is that there are four different boulder traits, almost like they were specifically made to hog the randomization. Players who don't like the abyssalite being replaced by the very conductive obsidian will suffer greatly re-rolling to avoid boulders. I can totally understand players not wanting to waste labor with the tedium of building more insulated walls than usual. Specifically want an extreme map? We can't just sit down and choose Rime with more ice, or Volcanea with more danger zones. Hate having entire biomes overwritten? Have to avoid large boulders, glaciers, and subsurface ocean. Want a higher chance of useful geysers? Have to aim for geoactive while avoiding geodormant. Overall I don't see the point of randomizing difficulty and prospective strategy by locking choice behind RNG. What's so wrong with wanting to always have Miscalculated Pod Location? Saving map seeds don't help either because although seeds preserve traits, they also preserve the shape of the map so you get the same biomes of the same shapes as long as you're using the same seed. This makes wanting to restart a world with the same traits but different map layout prohibitively gatekept by randomness. Don't know what the math is but I know for certain that the probability of rolling any specific combination of traits is very low, much more so if you want to avoid certain ones. EDIT: Added some math (if wrong feel free to correct): 2 trait + 2 any: 1/(17*16) = 0.37% 2 trait + 2 avoid: 1/(17*16) * ((14/18)^2) = 0.22% 2 trait + 4 avoid: 1/(17*16) * ((12/18)^2) = 0.16% 3 trait + 1 any: 1/(17*16*15) = 0.025% 3 trait + 2 avoid: 1/(17*16*15) * 13/18 = 0.018% 3 trait + 4 avoid: 1/(17*16*15) * 11/18 = 0.015% 4 trait: 1/(17*16*15*14) = 0.0018% So in short chances are 1 out of 4080 for a 3 trait combo and 1 out of 57120 for a 4 trait combo. I have faith in Klei though because they've made their stance clear about judging people for wanting to play games their own way. "And about how other people play the game". This is how we know Klei's intention is probably not that of an elitist or snobby one. Also we can still always ask this question: who exactly benefits from players sitting at the asteroid select screen grinding away at trait RNG with mouse1? Release is just around the corner and I for one would be hyped if we could choose from the list of traits by checking boxes! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasza22 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 33 minutes ago, BaloneyOs said: Release is just around the corner and I for one would be hyped if we could choose from the list of traits by checking boxes! It wouldn`t hurt if we could choose the exact traits of the asteroid in the customize option. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promethien Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 https://mrgamesdev.itch.io/oni-world-trait-finder Can select the traits you want and it'll give you seeds with those traits. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FantasticMoose Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 To me it seems like they replaced the rolling of dupes with rolling of asteroids. And even then, rolling dupes isn't over either. I'm personally never going to start with a narcoleptic dupe. Here's a crazy idea. Lets us choose PRECISELY what negative and positive traits we want on our dupes and asteroid at game start. I want that underground sea, glaciers, frozen core and geodormant on rime for example. Spent 15 minutes rolling then decided not to play on rime as every damn roll had some sort of heat generator, which to me, completely ruins the point of starting on rime in the first place. Now i'm back to farming dense pufts on a non-geodes Arboria. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 45 minutes ago, Promethien said: https://mrgamesdev.itch.io/oni-world-trait-finder Can select the traits you want and it'll give you seeds with those traits. But can't select the planet :/ Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimgaw Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 7 minutes ago, Yunru said: But can't select the planet :/ Afaik traits are tied to seed and you can use the seed for any type of planet. (small hint: use the seed in customize menu to skip the letter dash gibberish) 2 hours ago, BaloneyOs said: Also we can still always ask this question: who exactly benefits from players sitting at the asteroid select screen grinding away at trait RNG with mouse1? They made re-rolling of starting dupes less painful and at the same time gave us this abomination. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 14 minutes ago, Grimgaw said: Afaik traits are tied to seed and you can use the seed for any type of planet. (small hint: use the seed in customize menu to skip the letter dash gibberish) Yeah but the type of planet is also tied to the seed. 45171, for example, will always get you a default. And there doesn't seem to be an obvious pattern linking the two either. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Promethien said: https://mrgamesdev.itch.io/oni-world-trait-finder Can select the traits you want and it'll give you seeds with those traits. Interesting! Any documentation how this works available? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slvrsrfr Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 I really hope they just do this. There is no reason to not include it but to grief the people who will roll, imho. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Slvrsrfr said: I really hope they just do this. There is no reason to not include it but to grief the people who will roll, imho. And I expect that the seed browser (https://toolsnotincluded.net) will fox the issue anyways. But having it directly there in the game would be nice. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promethien Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 3 hours ago, Yunru said: Yeah but the type of planet is also tied to the seed. 45171, for example, will always get you a default. And there doesn't seem to be an obvious pattern linking the two either. Wrong. You can attach that number to any asteroid type and it will maintain the traits. Step 1: Select asteroid type. Step 2: bring up the custom window. Step 3: input seed number. Step 4: start game. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakuraKoi Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 You can easily force traits by temporarily removing the ones you do not want from \OxygenNotIncluded\OxygenNotIncluded_Data\StreamingAssets\worldgen\traits Though it could affect the complete world generation (geysers and planets), one might like to test that whenever the seed browser is updated, or earlier. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 42 minutes ago, Promethien said: Wrong. You can attach that number to any asteroid type and it will maintain the traits. Step 1: Select asteroid type. Step 2: bring up the custom window. Step 3: input seed number. Step 4: start game. Have you actually tried that? Because it doesn't work. Hence my comment. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promethien Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I have and it worked. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
natanstarke Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Lollll now i will need to restart just to build my perfect base! i want a arboria with geoactive, volcanos, metal rich and subsurface ocean or frozen core. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuQuasar Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 We could also very much use a "Randomise Traits" button, that doesn't tell you what you're going to get. I completely forgotten that I'd chosen a frozen core in my world and that moment of rediscovery when I reached it was glorious. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molay Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just to add on to this by drawing parallels to other games. Rimworld let's you go as far as setting up the scenario, with recurring events, etc. Factorio let's you toy around with all relevant settings too. Neither of those games lose their challenge as a result. I'd argue that all they do is allow players to tailor the world in a way they enjoy. Factorio for instance. Some people just turn biters off, max out ressources and enjoy the sandbox as a relaxed building game. Other bump the deathworld preset to hellish levels and are suddenly playing a survival game, instead of a building game. Rimworld is quite the same. Some of the most memorable playthrough stemmed from whacky settings, be it super hard, super thematic, or super forgiving. ONI is much like those games in many respects, and would benefit from expanded customizations to scratch that itch for that special experience. Maybe I want all dupes to be flatulent for a nice theme? Or an arboria map with -200C outside my start? There's many fun things players would do. Things they try doing now, but fall short for a lack of options. I'd really like to see customizations expanded on the whole. If you feel like trying achievements to the default presets only that's a fine way of handling it, if that's a bother. We've made steps in the right direction, and I think we can go a bit further still. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1225923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 9 hours ago, Promethien said: I have and it worked. And did you actually play any of them? As I said, they all load as default. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairath Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 16 hours ago, Yunru said: Yeah but the type of planet is also tied to the seed. 45171, for example, will always get you a default 2 hours ago, Yunru said: And did you actually play any of them? As I said, they all load as default. This is not true - you can get every seed on every type of asteroid. I've battle tested this both manually and while working on the TNI mod. World traits are tied to the seed - so seed 1 will always have the same traits regardless of the asteroid type. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wronny Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Yunru said: And did you actually play any of them? As I said, they all load as default. All of them come with the advertised traits for me, some of the geodes on "The Badlands" were rather interesting: Gold Amalgam geode close to printing pod. You do have to select the asteroid first and then set the correct seed (e.g. 1386) as worldgen seed in the customize menu. Changing the Coordinate currently doesn't do anything - as far as I'm aware. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I don't know where mine was messing up then, but I just tried repeating it and couldn't reproduce it any more (where it wouldn't give the right world). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kangaax Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 @Promethien That tool is great Any chance you could use the same assets to display the seed's geysers? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cairath Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 59 minutes ago, Kangaax said: @Promethien That tool is great Any chance you could use the same assets to display the seed's geysers? I'm in the process of updating and preparing for the launch, but https://toolsnotincluded.net Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kangaax Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, Cairath said: I'm in the process of updating and preparing for the launch, but https://toolsnotincluded.net A-*******-mazing, thank you sir Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junksteel Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, Cairath said: I'm in the process of updating and preparing for the launch, but https://toolsnotincluded.net @Cairath Hey! I want to say thank you for your work. I got so used to it man... not having that quality of life beauty in the preview made me feel naked. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/108856-the-merits-of-being-able-to-choose-asteroid-traits/#findComment-1226162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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