Why Filter/Buffer gates?

[Xadhoom]

i constantly have a hard time to remember what the function of the gates are, im used to automation so i would greatly appriciate if they were named something like "T-off" or "Timer off delay" and "T-on" or "Timmer on delay".

is filter/buffer more commonly used in english?

[6Havok9]

It's easy if you think what those words mean.

A buffer allows something to run longer after the input goes off. Look at the video buffer: if your connection drops every now and then, the video still plays, because it's buffered. Duh. =v

A filter prevents something from entering. When you make coffee, the filter prevents those nasty solid coffee particles from entering your coffee. However you have to stop and clean it to "reset" the filter. If you keep applying pressure, the filter will fail and you'll get that undrinkable **** in your cup.

Spoiler

Bentornato. Captain Marvel è un brutale ripoff di Xadhoom. Ho PKNA dal numero zero e lo trovo inaccettabile =(

 

[Eternal Firesea]

Those are the actual terms used for logic gates.  But, yeah, the tooltips for these need to be a lot more clear.  IT' way too easy to get them mixed up if you don't spend a lot of your time setting up log gates.

[SakuraKoi]

Buffer are easy to remember and implement. 

 

Filter however... may actually ne what is preventing me from doing anything more than simple automation.

Since I found no use for them, I do not know how to use them or perhaps it's vice versa? I do not know how to use them hence I found no use.

[EnderCN]

51 minutes ago, Xadhoom said:

is filter/buffer more commonly used in english?

Buffer does exactly what I would expect given the name.  Filter makes sense but it is a little more awkward.

[Yunru]

25 minutes ago, Eternal Firesea said:

IT' way too easy to get them mixed up if you don't spend a lot of your time setting up log gates.

It also doesn't help that filter gates say "buffer time" in their settings.

[Lurve]

39 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

Filter however... may actually ne what is preventing me from doing anything more than simple automation.

Since I found no use for them, I do not know how to use them or perhaps it's vice versa? I do not know how to use them hence I found no use.

Do you store hydrogen in your attic?  Put a gas pump up there.  A couple tiles below it, put a gas sensor (hydrogen), and run it through a filter.  A passing bubble of hydrogen won't turn the pump on, but only if it senses hydrogen for the full duration of the filter.

[bmilohill]

It's easier to remember if you think of a filter as filtering out spikes in the input line that might have been caused by your air conditioner turning on/off or a lightning strike. The spikes are filtered out, only a legitimate active signal gets through. 

[stoeberhai]

2 hours ago, SakuraKoi said:

Filter however... may actually ne what is preventing me from doing anything more than simple automation.

Since I found no use for them, I do not know how to use them or perhaps it's vice versa? I do not know how to use them hence I found no use.

with filter gates you can check if something happens for a certain time. for example: is a pipe empty or full for X seconds

[Yunru]

And a buffer gate feeding into a filter creates a delay.

[Sasza22]

Buffer keeps the active (on) signal for a cetain time after it changes to standby (off).

Filter keeps the standby (off) signal for a certain time after it changes to active (on).

[avc15]

Buffer is a commonly used term in electronics engineering in English. It usually means something slightly different than what we have in ONI though, usually they are in a circuit to amplify a control signal with a weak input i.e. a buffer duplicates a control signal from its very high impedance input onto a low impedance output.

 

Filters in ONI don't really do what filters in an electronic circuit do. Well in some limited cases. A filter blocks some frequencies and allows others through. So a state delay *could* be accomplished with a filter (sometimes is, in the form of a capacitor on the output)

 

Anyway.

[Gurgel]

And to confuse you more, there is a thing called "negative logic", where an ONI buffer is a filter and the other way round. 

[pacovf]

2 hours ago, Yunru said:

And a buffer gate feeding into a filter creates a delay.

Hmmmm... this only works if whenever the logic signal is off, it stays off for longer than your buffer time. Otherwise the outputted logic signal doesn’t turn off.

I have thought about it a bit further, and I don’t see any way to make a logic circuit that delays an arbitrary logic signal in ONI.

[KittenIsAGeek]

5 hours ago, Xadhoom said:

is filter/buffer more commonly used in english?

I can't speak for other fields, but computer engineers do a lot of work with filters and buffers when dealing with signals.  I've never heard of them called "T-off" or "T-on."

[Gurgel]

20 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I can't speak for other fields, but computer engineers do a lot of work with filters and buffers when dealing with signals.  I've never heard of them called "T-off" or "T-on."

Same here. While "buffer" and "filter" is not quite the correct terminology (these things are actually level-triggered monostable multivibrators), it does serve adequately on a bit higher abstraction level.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, Gurgel said:

Same here. While "buffer" and "filter" is not quite the correct terminology (these things are actually level-triggered monostable multivibrators), it does serve adequately on a bit higher abstraction level.

I suppose that depends on if you're implementing the filter in code on a PIC (or other microcontroller) or you're implementing it in physical hardware.  "Filter" and "Buffer" describe the same action in both cases, while the physical implementation might differ depending on how you're accomplishing the task.

[Gurgel]

2 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I suppose that depends on if you're implementing the filter in code on a PIC (or other microcontroller) or you're implementing it in physical hardware.  "Filter" and "Buffer" describe the same action in both cases, while the physical implementation might differ depending on how you're accomplishing the task.

We are on gate-level here. That is physical hardware. The physical implementation of what Klei calls "buffer" and "filter" is called a "level-triggered monostable multivibrator". The implementation does not matter. Of course, this is an emulated one as things are clocked invisibly.

When you talk about code, it is different. And although I would love a programmable controller in the game, where you could put in some, say, LUA code in an Arduino-like loop and have it read some inputs and drive some outputs, we do not have that. We have signal lines and logic elements on gate-level.

[Moonshade]

There are T-on and T-off function blocks within PLC functionblock (FBD) programming. Which is basically PLC programming for dummies. It represents code in a form of logic gates which you connect together much like in OnI. Preferred style for most when talking about PLC programming is LDR since it’s still quite easy to read, but most resource efficient would be STL which is a programming language quite close to machine language.

I can get the confusion with the buffer and filter gates

but I don’t think T-on and T-off would fare better. Since T-on would work as a filter and T-off as a buffer. For beginners T-on wouldn’t really say clear that the it is off until  it’s “on” delay has been passed.

Functions like these are hard to grasp within a single name. In the end to learn how they work one needs to play with them.

that said I would prefer T-on and T-off since for buffer and filter I got slightly different ideas of how they should work.

 

[Xadhoom]

 

15 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I can't speak for other fields, but computer engineers do a lot of work with filters and buffers when dealing with signals.  I've never heard of them called "T-off" or "T-on."

hmm, i learn something every day. nice.

As for T-On or T-Off, its as some guessed,moslty from programming PLCs.

12 hours ago, Moonshade said:

Which is basically PLC programming for dummies. It represents code in a form of logic gates which you connect together much like in OnI. Preferred style for most when talking about PLC programming is LDR since it’s still quite easy to read, but most resource efficient would be STL which is a programming language quite close to machine language.

whats fastest depends on PLC, for siemens 1200 and 1500 CPUs, STL is slowest, while SCL is fastest.

and i would never want to work in with a instuction list (IL or STL)  if i can help it. (entered into PLC programming rather late)

 

i wish the help text would be better, but im uncertain how to improve it, i know what would help me, but im a rather specific case.

[Yunru]

16 hours ago, pacovf said:

Hmmmm... this only works if whenever the logic signal is off, it stays off for longer than your buffer time. Otherwise the outputted logic signal doesn’t turn off.

I have thought about it a bit further, and I don’t see any way to make a logic circuit that delays an arbitrary logic signal in ONI.

That only sets the maximum delay per buffer pair though, if you repeat the setup you still get twice the delay... I think?

[Saturnus]

The terms buffer and filter predates modern logic gates and transistors. They arise from the basic function they serve:

The basic purpose of a buffer is to keep a signal turned on even if subjected to input signal cuts, and only turn off after a certain time with no input signal.

The basic purpose of a filter is to keep a signal turned off even if subjected to input signal spikes, and only turn on after a certain time with sustained input signal.

[Nightinggale]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

The basic purpose of a filter is to keep a signal turned off even if subjected to input signal spikes, and only turn on after a certain time with sustained input signal.

That's the best explanation for the name I have seen on this forum. The filter gate filters out spikes. Now if only the ingame text stated that, then people would likely be less confused.

[pacovf]

30 minutes ago, Yunru said:

That only sets the maximum delay per buffer pair though, if you repeat the setup you still get twice the delay... I think?

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I meant that the setup you described “filters” out short off signals. That is, if you have both the buffer and filter gate set to, say, 10 seconds, and your signal is mostly on, but turns off during 5s before turning back on, then your output signal will just stay on throughout, instead of turning off for 10s after the input signal. Does that make more sense?

[Yunru]

42 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I meant that the setup you described “filters” out short off signals. That is, if you have both the buffer and filter gate set to, say, 10 seconds, and your signal is mostly on, but turns off during 5s before turning back on, then your output signal will just stay on throughout, instead of turning off for 10s after the input signal. Does that make more sense?

Exactly, that's what I meant by maximum. If you had it set to something less than 5, say 2.5 (because easy numbers), and had 4 of them, it'd delay each signal by 10 seconds, without running into disruptions. (Right?)