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The Devs have really messed up heat deletion now!


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Just to keep things in perspective. Quite a few people are not happy with the current state of it and the "winners" are attacking them all over the place.

I am not even concerned with the last step (output temperatures). What I think is really messed up is the removal of tools and options for dealing with heat that has been going on for a while. It makes the game narrower and, as an effect, boring. To add insult to injury, the "winners" are all over the place claiming this is not true.

If anything, Klei has really managed to split the players into two groups and some of the exchanges going on are about as sophisticated as you usually only see in really low-quality politics. Not good.

 

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This change is stupid. It force us to build steam turbines everywhere. 

An efficint water-sieve based device is even more complex than a simple steam-turbine . which means more fun.  

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4 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

If anything, Klei has really managed to split the players into two groups and some of the exchanges going on are about as sophisticated as you usually only see in really low-quality politics. Not good.

I suspect there are more than two groups as I think there are at least 3 groups since the don't change can likely be split into "change nothing" and "cooling isn't an issue". Maybe add the group, which is fine with the change as such, but feel it subtracts from the fun of the gameplay.

2 minutes ago, lusss said:

This change is stupid. It force us to build steam turbines everywhere. 

The change is good (shouldn't magically heat either), but I do agree the result is stupid. The reason for the force to use steam turbines is the lack of a suitable alternative to both the water sieve and steam turbine.

11 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

What I think is really messed up is the removal of tools and options for dealing with heat that has been going on for a while. It makes the game narrower and, as an effect, boring.

Pretty much this. I couldn't have said it better myself. For ONI to be ONI, multiple valid solutions should be available, some more creative than others.

Let's compare it to using oil for power production. There is a simple solution of using a refinery. There is a more advanced solution of the petroleum boiler for increased efficiency and dupe-less operation. If you want to go really fancy, you can get natural gas for even higher efficiency, but it's also even harder to build. There are different versions of each step, each with different building costs, size and efficiency.

Temperature management needs to be "ONIfied". It needs the multiple steps and many valid solutions approach and in fact it needs even more than the oil industry because temperature can be an issue from day one on some of the new maps. There is added gameplay to temperature management with the new maps, but the tools to deal with this gameplay are lacking.

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I actually built recently an ice fan and one of those air chillers that I can't name because it is the first time I have used it since it came out.  I would suspect that this is the intention of the changes, to make us use the other tools instead of spamming WW.  I need to pull up my first rocketry base where I cooled an iron, gold and copper volcano, on the same map with nothing but, what must have been, a 150-200 WW.  I don't like the idea of not being able to build a sealed room with hydrogen and WW to cool items.  It was easier to do that than to think about my cooling. At the risk of being branded a "winner", which I most assuredly am not, I think these seismic changes are good because they make me think.  I would not still be playing this game that I started with the outbreak release if the game play had not evolved.  

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I mean, even before it was stupid, and the stupid hasn't changed: If you didn't use the sieve for cooling you had to make sure to cool the output with the input just to avoid creating heat.

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1 minute ago, Junksteel said:

Well, Friday night here and I'm not feeling like steam turbining any base. Terraria is on sale. I'll give it a try.

Terraria is nice. But expect to sink a lot of time into it... ;)

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1 hour ago, Gurgel said:

Quite a few people are not happy with the current state of it and the "winners" are attacking them all over the place.

Let's be real here, before this change, it was the defenders of the status quo that attacked the people that wanted the sieve to be changed. And it got nasty to the point were threads had to be locked down.

There's probably a lesson to be learnt here somewhere.

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42 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Terraria is nice. But expect to sink a lot of time into it...

And make sure to read about HOIKs - super fast movement using hammered tiles to cheese any and all bosses. :) Sorry, had to put in an exploit plug, couldn't resist....

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33 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Let's be real here, before this change, it was the defenders of the status quo that attacked the people that wanted the sieve to be changed. And it got nasty to the point were threads had to be locked down.

There's probably a lesson to be learnt here somewhere.

And lets even be more real and look at facts. A significant part of the people complaining, including me, do not object to the sieve change per se, it was just the proverbial last straw.

Also, were do you see threads that are locked?

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I wanted the sieve changed, I thought it was dumb, I think minimum fixed temps is also dumb, and I don't like major nerfs to earlygame heat deletion coming alongside it.

Put simply, they've just got everyone looking into ways of dealing with heat that aren't based on the sieve, but they've simultaneously taken a sledgehammer to the obvious intended initial ways of dealing with heat (ice maker+fan, WW), ensuring everyone's pressed into mid and lategame solutions, while also not really fixing a major complaint about machines (fixed output temperature forces you to exchange heat to inputs or accept some crazy magical heat addition and punish you for daring to consider feeding in chilly water for cooling purposes).

If the sieve was changed, but ice maker and WW left alone for now, I'd still be here complaining that the sieve has just gone from this exploity weirdness to being this punishing weirdness, but at the least I would be looking into steam turbines or such for eventual heat solutions, and if WW then got nerfed, but not ice maker, I'd be considering spending a major portion of duplicate time on a cooling task to buy time before I go industrial. The current state of affairs is too much punishment that makes me hesitant to start bases and considering whether to test out Rime.

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12 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

And lets even be more real and look at facts. A significant part of the people complaining, including me, do not object to the sieve change per se, it was just the proverbial last straw.

I am pushing for a more generous adoption of the principle of charity, and for being polite to each other on the internet. An uphill battle, I know. If what you are saying is that I am misrepresenting what you are complaining about, then I apologize, although I believe my point is still relevant. 

 

15 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Also, were do you see threads that are locked?

If the question is how to find them, it seems that the forum search function filters them out. But it's hard to say, the search function doesn't work very well.

If you were instead calling to question whether the threads I was referring to exist at all, well... they do exist, but I am not going to dredge them up. For what it's worth, you participated in at least one of them.

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The sieve and carbon heat deletion was a dumb mechanic.  Why should I have to feel like I'm wasting heat deletion when I'm just trying to get rid of carbon or filter polluted water?  It's a dumb mechanic and it's obviously good that it's fixed.  I also don't think generators should be able to release their outputs at super cold temperatures.

 

Also you act like having to fertilize wheeze worts is basically the same as just removing them from the game.  Also Ice makers are pretty effective.

Also there are these things called pipes so you can build a centralized turbine system and then pipe the cooling to various parts of your base.  You should mostly just be able to avoid heat until the late game.  Having to deal with the heat from the metal refineries is one of the things that makes that phase of the game interesting.

I think the game could use a radiator building which would work much like radiant pipes in atmosphere but if it was in space, it would delete heat proportional to temperature in Kelvin^4 in accordance with the Stefan-Boltzmann law.  But that would require you to reach space and probably also require refined metals which would make it a late game item.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan–Boltzmann_law

If anyone is suggesting that we should just be able to pop down a heat deleter like an oxygen diffuser, then you may as well go play minecraft.

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For me.

Output = input + machine heat "thats already there exchanging with surroundings"

Would be the best of both worlds ? 

As for other buildings i think should follow the same rule or stay as they are.

What about we all make a vote just to show what the player base prefer?

Also even if devs let this nerf be as it is now lets test it till late game and try to think about it in the early parts like a new player would this way we will help even more on the feedback for launch. 

Good games for all when it rollback/getfixed! 

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4 minutes ago, Nebbie said:

The current state of affairs is too much punishment that makes me hesitant to start bases and considering whether to test out Rime.

Rime is different. It is not very hard so far if you know what you are doing, but you spend time actually heating things up instead of cooling them. I am currently on a frozen-core Rime, so I can basically cool anything for a long time ;)

Expect things to go slow though. I was on fried mush for > 100 cycles. Dirt is plenty, algae is plenty as well. 

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1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

Rime is different. It is not very hard so far if you know what you are doing, but you spend time actually heating things up instead of cooling them. I am currently on a frozen-core Rime, so I can basically cool anything for a long time ;)

Expect things to go slow though. I was on fried mush for > 100 cycles. Dirt is plenty, algae is plenty as well. 

Its possible to run tepidizers with manual generators there? I will try rime today if the roll back/fix occurs. 

I love the frozen core trait also the geo active and volcanos i even like buried oil and geodes or medium boulders. I just dislike the large boulders " too large".

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Heat and some other thing, make me play all the time with the sandbox turned on, so sometimes i use the heat gun to remove or add some heat around. I use the sandbox to save some stupid duplicant too, and that is all.

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5 minutes ago, MustardWarrior said:

The sieve and carbon heat deletion was a dumb mechanic.  Why should I have to feel like I'm wasting heat deletion when I'm just trying to get rid of carbon or filter polluted water?  It's a dumb mechanic and it's obviously good that it's fixed.  I also don't think generators should be able to release their outputs at super cold temperatures.

 

Also you act like having to fertilize wheeze worts is basically the same as just removing them from the game.  Also Ice makers are pretty effective.

Also there are these things called pipes so you can build a centralized turbine system and then pipe the cooling to various parts of your base.  You should mostly just be able to avoid heat until the late game.  Having to deal with the heat from the metal refineries is one of the things that makes that phase of the game interesting.

I think the game could use a radiator building which would work much like radiant pipes in atmosphere but if it was in space, it would delete heat proportional to temperature in Kelvin^4 in accordance with the Stefan-Boltzmann law.  But that would require you to reach space and probably also require refined metals which would make it a late game item.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan–Boltzmann_law

If anyone is suggesting that we should just be able to pop down a heat deleter like an oxygen diffuser, then you may as well go play minecraft.

Wheezeworts were already somewhat underwhelming unless placed in hydrogen, having to have drecko farming going to use them at that underwhelming performance is painful.

Ice maker is about as effective as a wild Wheezewort; maybe it's more scalable than I expect, but the big point of contention I have with it is needing to transport the ice around, and ice fans being the logical next step to do it better but being apparently a waste of dupe time.

Late game or not, it would be more interesting than steam turbines everywhere and without the weirdness of ejecting extra mass into space.

 

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the top 2 forum posts are "thanks to devs for fixing heat deletion" and "the devs messed up heat".  Maybe we need a poll.  Personally I think the steam turbine+aquatuner is a little boring and liked the variety we had before.

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2 hours ago, hegemontree said:

the top 2 forum posts are "thanks to devs for fixing heat deletion" and "the devs messed up heat".  Maybe we need a poll.  Personally I think the steam turbine+aquatuner is a little boring and liked the variety we had before.

Naa, things will work out fine. I still like some more ways to deal with heat, but at least the sieve is not a massive problem now.

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