[Game Update] - 348553

[Gurgel]

10 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Hmmm. that is very interesting.

Here is what I am seeing. building temp is 17C. input temp of pw is 89C

When I use 23C sand I get 40C output

If I use 80C sand, I get 80C output

Sounds like somebody is using the wrong variables

[Nightinggale]

I found a bug in the new temperature calculation. No wonder the water sieve doesn't provide the expected temperature. When finding the average temperature of the water and sand, it use the stored sand instead of the used sand, hence comparing 1200 kg of sand to 10 kg of water. This makes the sand dominate the output temperature.

EDIT: apparently the thread is on to the bug as well. I didn't actually read it because I was too busy reading the source code and writing the bug report.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Nightinggale

[Sasza22]

2 minutes ago, pacovf said:

Well, I wasn't expecting the fixed temperature thing to be changed anymore, with release being so close.

Same.

They also changed some of the pipe logic. Made seeds plant themselves again. That`s so many changes right before release. Now imagine if they didn`t do the preview.

[Darkin Coaled]

1 hour ago, Ipsquiggle said:

Fixed-temperature-output buildings will now output at a hotter temperature if their input materials are hotter than the configured temperature.

Please tell me it means "to boil water just add regolith."

Please?

From my perspective I really don't see any reason why the sieve shouldn't be simply doing a standard heat exchange math based on medium temp/capacity/conductivity * 1kg versus input polluted water temp/capacity/conductivity * 5kg, resulting in slightly altered temperatures of output polluted dirt and clean water.

Why can't you allow builds where we keep sand in a freezer and use that to cool our water?

The elaborateness of that setup, just imagine...

And of course, to boil water just add regolith…

[Yunru]

14 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Sounds like they oops'd the code and had it look at the Sand's temp instead of the Polluted Water's temp.

Or it's... a weighted average of all the inputs... like listed?

[Nightinggale]

4 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Or it's... a weighted average of all the inputs... like listed?

It is weighted average, but using completely wrong weights, making the sand weight be up to 1200 times higher than it should be compared to the water weight.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Nightinggale

[Red Shark]

5 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Or it's... a weighted average of all the inputs... like listed?

Based on Nightengale's code analysis, that *is* what happens... but it uses the stored filtration medium mass (e.g., all of the sand in the device), rather than only the filtration medium doing the conversion.

So instead of 1kg of sand and 5kg of water being averaged, it's 5kg of water + however much sand is stored in the device, which could be >100kg, which skews the average.

Edit: As they just beat me to saying...

Edited July 4, 2019 by Red Shark

[EnderCN]

12 minutes ago, AntiBlueQuirk said:

I'm getting crashes sometimes when my dupes "complete" a full segment of gas pipe. They can build each individual bit, but when they put the last one in, sometimes I get a freeze followed by a crash. If I had to guess, it's something to do with the conduit changes this update:

 

Yeah I think I am having the same thing.  I crashed 3 times in a row when trying to finish a gas setup so I came here to see if something was going on.

[Gurgel]

1 minute ago, Nightinggale said:

It is weighted average, but using completely wrong weights, making the sand weight be up to 600 times higher than it should be compared to the water weight.

Fits the observations. Also had a crash about 30 seconds into my game _and_ the crash uploader is still broken. I think I will be doing something else until they fix the current mess. 

[EnderCN]

I'm glad they went with this change instead of just making them not change heat at all.  It is way too easy to just use cool water to do everything and make the game too easy that way.   My guess is these devices worked this way to add heat and the removing heat was just a side benefit that they were hoping to get rid of at a later date.  

[AntiBlueQuirk]

Honestly, the fixed temperature output thing has always bothered me, so I'm glad to see it addressed, but I also understand why people are upset. There's not a lot of effective ways to deal with heat in the game, and another one is being removed. It's kind of a double whammy as well, with Wheezeworts being nerfed.

Also, I think how they "fixed" it seems a little blunt. Machines can heat stuff up, but not cool them down anymore? I would be a lot happier with a system that output at the fixed temperature always, but calculated the difference in heat energy and applied it to the machine. Pump some really hot water into your sieve? The sieve gets hot to cool down the water. Pump cold water in there instead? It gets cold to heat up the water.

[Nightinggale]

1 minute ago, AntiBlueQuirk said:

Also, I think how they "fixed" it seems a little blunt. Machines can heat stuff up, but not cool them down anymore? I would be a lot happier with a system that output at the fixed temperature always, but calculated the difference in heat energy and applied it to the machine. Pump some really hot water into your sieve? The sieve gets hot to cool down the water. Pump cold water in there instead? It gets cold to heat up the water.

We have a bunch of mods right now, which change the water sieve (and other buildings) to use input temperatures instead of fixed temperatures. They all just broke

However it will be equally simple to make a mod, which sets the minimum temperature to 0 K, which will remove the heating effect.

Re-introducing a water sieve heatsink with a mod is less simple though, but not impossible.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Fits the observations. Also had a crash about 30 seconds into my game _and_ the crash uploader is still broken. I think I will be doing something else until they fix the current mess. 

It is untestable at this point because of the stability. I have crashed to desktop at least 20 times now and as many black holes just trying to get an oil refinery setup.

[AntiBlueQuirk]

1 minute ago, Nightinggale said:

Re-introducing a water sieve heatsink with a mod is less simple though, but not impossible.

I've actually thought about making a mod that does exactly that: whenever a machine changes the temperature of something, the machine absorbs the difference. But I've been working on other mods and haven't really looked into how feasible the idea is yet.

[Gurgel]

7 minutes ago, AntiBlueQuirk said:

Honestly, the fixed temperature output thing has always bothered me, so I'm glad to see it addressed, but I also understand why people are upset. There's not a lot of effective ways to deal with heat in the game, and another one is being removed. It's kind of a double whammy as well, with Wheezeworts being nerfed.

I think it _really_ unbalances things. If you have a cold slush geyser, cooling is still super easy. If not, you are basically screwed and everything gets really hard. That is not good. What you have in geysers should not make this massive a difference.

[RuizuKun_Dev]

When life is tough just make a giant Mealwood farm, at one point I had 1M+ kCals of it, Lettuce is kind of a Mid to Late game food item anyways since you can only process it in a Gas Range, not to mention that some maps won't have naturally spawned Puffs (and a Swamp Biome) so you'll have to get them from Care packages. then breed more and hopefully get a Squeaky then start domesticating Lettuce.

 

I'm also getting crashes(I've attached a file to a Thread already), hopefully it's fixed soon but don't rush take your time Devs

Edited July 4, 2019 by RuizuKun_Dev

[Grimgaw]

1 hour ago, Shingara said:

do that math, 30 lettuce plants, how many pufts, and thats if you get the right ones.

1 tame squeaky puft gives 5kg of bleach stone a cycle, so for your 30 plants you'd need 3 pufts.

[Yunru]

11 minutes ago, AntiBlueQuirk said:

I would be a lot happier with a system that output at the fixed temperature always, but calculated the difference in heat energy and applied it to the machine. Pump some really hot water into your sieve? The sieve gets hot to cool down the water. Pump cold water in there instead? It gets cold to heat up the water.

Problem is it would turn the water sieve into a discount aquatuner.

[AntiBlueQuirk]

Just now, Yunru said:

Problem is it would turn the water sieve into a discount aquatuner.

In certain sense, with the fixed output temperature, it already is. And if the water sieve was absorbing the heat of the fluid, it would shut down pretty quick. Water sieves aren't submergible, aquatuners are.

[Shingara]

2 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

1 tame squeaky puft gives 5kg of bleach stone a cycle, so for your 30 plants you'd need 3 pufts.

so, lets see, have to make stable, seal the room, fill with chlorine, heat that room, get to oil, make plastic, get rancher, make trap, get a puft from the printer,  breed till squeaky and then have enough for lettuce, vs having the oxylite machine be able to make bleach stone and automate it, choices choices.

[goboking]

8 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

I think it _really_ unbalances things. If you have a cold slush geyser, cooling is still super easy. If not, you are basically screwed and everything gets really hard. That is not good. What you have in geysers should not make this massive a difference.

Is there any reason thermo regulators, aquatuners, and steam turbines can't be used to cool your base?

[RuizuKun_Dev]

2 minutes ago, Shingara said:

so, lets see, have to make stable, seal the room, fill with chlorine, heat that room, get to oil, make plastic, get rancher, make trap, get a puft from the printer,  breed till squeaky and then have enough for lettuce, vs having the oxylite machine be able to make bleach stone and automate it, choices choices.

I would prefer that we have both options, these challenges are what makes the game enjoyable (for me at least)  

Since I'm playing on a map with no Swamp Biome I have to create Algae by using Puffs.

Edited July 4, 2019 by RuizuKun_Dev

[AddTheJuice98]

Fixed-temperature-output buildings will now output at a hotter temperature if their input materials are hotter than the configured temperature.

Still easy.

[blacknight7890]

Finally, the game is actualy hard now, no more fixed output cooling bull, you have to actualy deal with the heat instead of deleting it now.

Edited July 4, 2019 by blacknight7890

[Gurgel]

6 minutes ago, goboking said:

Is there any reason thermo regulators, aquatuners, and steam turbines can't be used to cool your base?

I did not say anything about "cannot". You may note that I used the term "unbalanced" and not the term "gamebreaking".

What I really do not like is being forced into one specific complicated solution by an arbitrary characteristic of the map. And new players? Forget about them being able to figure this one out. If Klei wants to put major frustration on new players on launch, then this is a really good way to do it. Not a smart business move though...

Edited July 4, 2019 by Gurgel