The BERNIE! Exploit Poll

[Captain_Rage]

One big Bernie is more than enough, thank you. The changes that Willow received are already more than wonderful (they included many things that I had been hoping for but that's not the point). The exploit not exactly fun, for reasons mentioned above.

And saying that removing the exploit makes Willow less fun when we just received a huge update? Come on.

I'm sure you can find some goofball mod with many hilarious exploits and shenanigans if it's that important. And as for feedback; here you have one player who does not agree with your rationale.

[BeeClops]

i m honestly shocked by the amount of ppl wanting this bernie army a real thing. As stated above, you can just play god mode or just add chaos via console commands if u just wanna have fun and goof around.

I never really liked or played Willow so i did not argue in the rework topic, and i have to say she is more appealing to try now with bernie being big and funny, but it's just getting too far w you guys just wanting her to be a god. Trying not to insult anyone or be mean, but dang, i never understood willow mains.

[Mr.Mulk]

2 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

And saying that removing the exploit makes Willow less fun when we just received a huge update? Come on.

I never said it ruins the experience, merely that a change has been applied and in my opinion it was a negative in terms of fun. To suggest I cannot say that because it's on the heels of a big update (where presumably a lot of effort was put in) is silly. Just because  a lot of effort was put in does not invalidate my ability to provide feedback.

I still don't get this line of logic that if I'm not happy with a change I should just "suck it up" and pretend like it didn't happen solely because it's "ungrateful" to provide feedback. I'm aware that a lot of effort has been put into this update, and overall I'm of the opinion it turned out decently (there's some thematic things I don't like and this but that's about it). 

2 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

I'm sure you can find some goofball mod with many hilarious exploits and shenanigans if it's that important. 

"Mod it yourself"/"Find a mod that fixes it for you" is not the purpose of this discussion (nor has it ever been a good argument). The purpose is a change occurred which I think overall lessened the fun of the game. No need to take it beyond the actual scope here.

2 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

One big Bernie is more than enough, thank you. The changes that Willow received are already more than wonderful (they included many things that I had been hoping for but that's not the point). The exploit not exactly fun, for reasons mentioned above.

And as for feedback; here you have one player who does not agree with your rationale.

I disagree, but that's the point of this thread, to openly discuss the issue and see what people think. Furthermore, I'm not trying to get people to agree with anything I say (something tells me ironically I could say anything and you wouldn't agree) I'm just gathering opinions on the subject.

People saying the tentacle traps are weaker haven't really mentioned the difference in dps that's pertinent here. In order to set up a tentacle trap farm that deals massive damage it only takes a couple books, which is not hard to gather. To do any comparable amount of dps with Big Bernie you'd need a small army at a minimum, which is going to require resources that aren't as easily obtainable, at least not initially in the match.

Here's how I'd break it down:

Traps:

• Insane dps for only a few books
• self-reproducing (except for papyrus but that's easy as heck to get)
• less defensive but the dps means less time the boss is alive and hitting
• can be rushed out of the gate fairly easily
• Immobile, but can be placed anywhere
• Produce decent melee weapons as an additional bonus
• Can't be used to farm nightmare fuel

Bernies:

• Meh dps comparatively unless in an insane amount
  • requiring a lot of resources which can't be as easily rushed or collected as fast
• Mobile
• Requires Willow being insane, granted is mostly negated by Big Bernie fighting shadow monsters
• Solidly defensive
• Upkeep is going to require sewing kits, which will add up for larger armies quickly

So yes, while Big Bernie armies are pretty awesome, they're fun to march into to take on a boss with, there's still really no comparison to Wicker's tentacle traps. I get some people might say "Well Klei is probably going to nerf the tentacle traps." I cannot stress this enough: Klei has made it clear their intention is not to nerf anyone. So I think it provides a decent metric to measure off of since they serve similar purposes.

 

[Datanon]

i didnt like the exploit as i didnt like how bernie turned out to be at all. im not going to elaborate since this is not the point of the thread

[BeeClops]

on the topic of tentacles vs Bernie Army, imo being mobile and with you at all times, while also not attacking you and taking aggro from mobs far outweighs the dps, also imo both are fairly cheap to make, i mean for me personally the books seemed more expensive but i won't go there; you can't really say beard hair is expensive tho, i have excess beard hair in every world because of the bunnyfarm, wich is one of the best early food sources anyway so i don't think ppl don't make em.

Honestly i don't think tentacles need nerfing and i do think bernie army is much more op. I mean as you said i don't get who would vote "i don't want bernie army" and also vote "tentacles are better", probably nobody.

[Mr.Mulk]

11 minutes ago, BeeClops said:

on the topic of tentacles vs Bernie Army, imo being mobile and with you at all times, while also not attacking you and taking aggro from mobs far outweighs the dps, also imo both are fairly cheap to make, i mean for me personally the books seemed more expensive but i won't go there; you can't really say beard hair is expensive tho, i have excess beard hair in every world because of the bunnyfarm, wich is one of the best early food sources anyway so i don't think ppl don't make em.

Honestly i don't think tentacles need nerfing and i do think bernie army is much more op. I mean as you said i don't get who would vote "i don't want bernie army" and also vote "tentacles are better", probably nobody.

I can respect the concerns, which is why I'm also looking at potential compromises in the opinions (which are integral part of finding a solution that the majority of people are accepting of), I'm not opposed to the idea of a well-balanced cap, I just find 1 to be fairly limiting in comparison to the insane stuff that exists for other characters right now. I think it would be unfair to consider this a type of "all or nothing" situation.

[Masked_Misery]

I thought being able to produce multiple Bernie's was going to be a feature from the start. Most characters have no caps on their gimmicks.

Winona can produce so many catapults as to wreck endgame bosses with ease, Wicker can produce infinite tentacles, Wolfgang can be mighty for as long as he has food, WX can be infinitely overcharged, Wortox can collect souls to perpetually heal and stay fed.

The point is there's no logic in heavily limiting Willow's gimmick for the sake of balance when they have purposely not done that very thing in the past. The immediate past, with Winona and Wortox. Mobility doesn't really matter when you can kill any boss in the game with a couple of catapults. 

[Mr.Mulk]

2 minutes ago, Masked_Misery said:

I thought being able to produce multiple Bernie's was going to be a feature from the start. Most characters have no caps on their gimmicks.

Winona can produce so many catapults as to wreck endgame bosses with ease, Wicker can produce infinite tentacles, Wolfgang can be mighty for as long as he has food, WX can be infinitely overcharged, Wortox can collect souls to perpetually heal and stay fed.

The point is there's no logic in heavily limiting Willow's gimmick for the sake of balance when they have purposely not done that very thing in the past. The immediate past, with Winona and Wortox. Mobility doesn't really matter when you can kill any boss in the game with a couple of catapults. 

You know I didn't even consider catapults or the other no-cap perks and now I feel like a doofus for not picking the obviously better examples for comparison than just tentacle traps. I wish I could somehow pin this post to the front and top of the thread.

[BeeClops]

yup that is a better comparison, with catapults also being fairly op imo, but i would not like this to be the trend w every character tbh. I however do think winona deserved something more spectacular as a rework since she was very boring otherwise, but that s probably not a good enough reason to make characters too strong now.

[Pop Guy]

@FreyaMaluk

@Canis

We could accentuate the pyromaniac side of Willow and make BERNIE! more useful without exploits in one fell swoop: BERNIE! becomes immune to fire damage BUT it can ignite. Willow can set him on fire and BERNIE! he won't be angry with Willow.
When BERNIE! fiery attacks enemies, enemies DO NOT catch fire but take fire damage. So we have:
1) recovered the pyromaniac side of Willow
2) returned BERNIE! more useful without exploits
3) found a way to use fire in battle WITHOUT losing the loot
4) it would be spectacular to see in combat and it would be a unique strategy that no one else could do except Willow.

Some modder will do it, please. 

[Warlockadamm]

The most interesting thing in this poll is th e fact that exactly 50/50 people chose "yes" either of "yes" this is quite crazy when you think about it

[Cpt. KatKit]

The only change I'd agree is allowing each Willow one big Bernie even if they are overlapped. Set the cap of big bernies to the number of willow in the same range. Anything else would be overkill or cheese city; Game doesn't need another on tentacle.. Some would even argue that book shouldn't exist in its current price.

[Tosh]

I think there’s something that people might be missing in these comparisons:

A BERNIE! army completely breaks the entire weapon/armour system, while Tentacles and Catapults don’t.

So long as you have access to green caps and a second Willow, there’s no weapon/armour combination that can stack up. While Tentacle/Catapult farms might be more powerful in their specific uses, they don’t replace combat altogether; despite their situational strengths, Wicker, Winona, Wendy and Webber all still need to fight in the usual way. 

[Footman Crouch]

Well, what's the point of bernie army other than massive cheese? If they readded it, people might spam bernie instead of using willow other perks.

6 minutes ago, Tosh said:

I think there’s something that people might be missing in these comparisons:

A BERNIE! army completely breaks the entire weapon/armour system, while Tentacles and Catapults don’t.

So long as you have access to green caps and a second Willow, there’s no weapon/armour combination that can stack up. While Tentacle/Catapult farms might be more powerful in their specific uses, they don’t replace combat altogether; despite their situational strengths, Wicker, Winona, Wendy and Webber all still need to fight in the usual way. 

That and because nightmare creatures are baited to attack bernie, willow can just stay still and let bernie do all the work. Plus, he's mobile, unlike tentacle/catapult.

[Faultz]

You can still have a bernie army, just make sure everyone plays willow.

Do you think an abigail army would be fair? 

You say they nerfed something fun, but it was a bug of a rework that was unintended so it was a fix.

Bernie also doesnt attack you. You can freely pick up loot while he guards you. When has a tentacle guarded you?

Upkeep? Its a sewing kit big deal.

 

Only winona and willow have been reworked dont compare it or start your "Tier" list until all characters have been done.

[h2mk]

12 hours ago, Hatano Eichero said:

Yeah but DST is an online game and you cannot stop a friend or random from using Bernie army. That seems to be why they removed fire farms from DST but not DS, right? Because in DS fire farms only affect one player, while in DST it can affect more.

@Mr.Mulk Would appreciate your take on this. I use the analogy of fire farms because like this, it was an exploit removed from DST. There are plenty of people who find fire farms to make the game more fun, but I and some others do not find it fun when people use overly powerful tactics similar to them in DST, honestly we already have some less effective but extremely powerful food farms in the current state of the game.

2 hours ago, Mr.Mulk said:

I just find 1 to be fairly limiting in comparison to the insane stuff that exists for other characters right now.

But while I agree on the tentacles being an extreme, I do not think having one problematic feature warrants another one.

[Mr.Mulk]

1 hour ago, Hatano Eichero said:

@Mr.Mulk Would appreciate your take on this. I use the analogy of fire farms because like this, it was an exploit removed from DST. There are plenty of people who find fire farms to make the game more fun, but I and some others do not find it fun when people use overly powerful tactics similar to them in DST, honestly we already have some less effective but extremely powerful food farms in the current state of the game.

The thing is firefarms aren't limited to any character specifically, making them a massive boon to everyone. The only difference with Willow was that she could have a backpack while using them. The comparison can be made but it's not a 1:1 for this reason.

1 hour ago, Hatano Eichero said:

But while I agree on the tentacles being an extreme, I do not think having one problematic feature warrants another one.

While it is a matter of opinion, I've stated it before and I'll state it again. There's a reason people play the meta, because it's fun! It's fun to be able to pursue the unique and powerful endgame strategies the characters offer that others can't compete with. All I suggest is that we share some of that love around more, instead of limiting it to three characters. We already know Klei isn't going to be nerfing the meta so it's only logical.

[FreyaMaluk]

3 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

@FreyaMaluk

@Canis

We could accentuate the pyromaniac side of Willow and make BERNIE! more useful without exploits in one fell swoop: BERNIE! becomes immune to fire damage BUT it can ignite. Willow can set him on fire and BERNIE! he won't be angry with Willow.
When BERNIE! fiery attacks enemies, enemies DO NOT catch fire but take fire damage. So we have:
1) recovered the pyromaniac side of Willow
2) returned BERNIE! more useful without exploits
3) found a way to use fire in battle WITHOUT losing the loot
4) it would be spectacular to see in combat and it would be a unique strategy that no one else could do except Willow.

Some modder will do it, please. 

Big Bernie is already immune to fire dmg

Don't think the devs are gonna go for a Big Bernie on fire... but hey.. mods could def go for it

[h2mk]

11 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

The thing is firefarms aren't limited to any character specifically, making them a massive boon to everyone. The only difference with Willow was that she could have a backpack while using them. The comparison can be made but it's not a 1:1 for this reason.

While it is a matter of opinion, I've stated it before and I'll state it again. There's a reason people play the meta, because it's fun! It's fun to be able to pursue the unique and powerful endgame strategies the characters offer that others can't compete with. All I suggest is that we share some of that love around more, instead of limiting it to three characters. We already know Klei isn't going to be nerfing the meta so it's only logical.

I can definitely understand this way of thinking, I don't think either of us will change our minds though. Which is okay. 

I only feel like the fire farm thing does not need to be a one for one comparison, I wasn't using it as an example for any character specific related reason, the point was to say that exploits can effect others when playing online. Think of it in the same way that you compared this to catapults and tentacles, tentacles and catapults are not exploits while the Bernie army is, that doesn't take away from your point because that was not the similarity you were pointing out. I find the only flaws in analogies I typically see is when they may not be actually similar to each other or be used in an extreme way to drive a point.

Example: "If you listened to me when I asked for your take on my post, would you then listen to me if I told you to jump off of a cliff?".

If my point was that you should jump off of a cliff (just an example of something you wouldn't likely do, no hard feelings) that would be a terrible analogy because it's used in an extreme way to make a point.

[reverentsatyr]

Even though a BERNIE! army sounds fun, I don't think it would make sense(lore-wise).

[exobunny]

I would like the chance to summon an Ashely army in my games. Even if it's a mechanic I wouldn't myself waste supplies on, I think it's something that could be fun to play with. Strictly in a fun let's see what happens kinda way. 

[BadScra]

*sigh* You sure talk a lot...

Bernies stacking is not fair because solo can best raid bosses with Bernies stacking. Tentacles trap isn't exploit.

17 hours ago, Chris1448 said:

I prefer the one large Bernie per Willow. If one falls the next one can be ready to beef up and take its place.

You can do with two Bernies and sewing kit. Too strong.