Woodie review and ideas for rework.

[FreyaMaluk]

16 hours ago, Hell-met said:

game option to disable lucy whining and/or her talk sound

 

all i need

The devs told us in the "insanity noises" thread they are gonna include an option to disable this sound too..this is @jambell saying they are including them

Dunno if @CarlZalph has a mod disabling lucy sounds tho in the meanwhile. 

[pedregales]

I really don't think increasing the beaver's damage is a good idea, specially at a pike's level of damage; even more if you add 60% or more armor. The only reason you would want to fight as Woodie with that damage and armor is against bosses (and only because of the insanity), but everything else? Werebeaver to the rescue (which BTW, can also see in the dark). I get there are nightmare creatures (and also the "lovely" screen and sound effects of being insane AND werebeaver), but it would still be a bit insane not having to make a single spear or log armor until you start to use dark swords and ham bats (which are on a league of their own). I think it being tanky and able to deal with minor enemies is a good thing, but not a fighting unit on it's own.

That aside, another thing that could be added to Woodie himself, based on his "celebrate Thanksgiving early" perk (which increases the time for which pigmen, bunnymen, and rock lobsters follow you), is that he could have an easier time taming beefalos. Very gimmicky, I know, but it makes sense with what he already has.

[4 Da LOLs]

5 minutes ago, pedregales said:

That aside, another thing that could be added to Woodie himself, based on his "celebrate Thanksgiving early" perk (which increases the time for which pigmen, bunnymen, and rock lobsters follow you), is that he could have an easier time taming beefalos. Very gimmicky, I know, but it makes sense with what he already has.

what if pigs chopped faster than normal too?

it would help battle Maxwell

[pedregales]

11 minutes ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

what if pigs chopped faster than normal too?

it would help battle Maxwell

Would be nice, a bit weird (I mean, why would they chop faster after being hired by Woodie specifically?), but nice. Although his biggest problem against Maxwell is that Maxwell can chop, dig stumps, and pick up logs all at the same time (3 chopers while Maxwell digs stumps and picks up logs); but Woodie is already faster than Maxwell chopping.

EDIT: you can do the same with Woodie (or other characters) and the pigs, the only difference is that you control when you want the shadows gone and you have to chop a tree once for them to chop it down, while pigmen go away after the work schedule is over, forcing a new contract. There might be more differences, as I usually don't hire pigmen or other mobs in general.

[FreyaMaluk]

49 minutes ago, pedregales said:

I really don't think increasing the beaver's damage is a good idea, specially at a pike's level of damage; even more if you add 60% or more armor. The only reason you would want to fight as Woodie with that damage and armor is against bosses (and only because of the insanity), but everything else? Werebeaver to the rescue (which BTW, can also see in the dark). I get there are nightmare creatures (and also the "lovely" screen and sound effects of being insane AND werebeaver), but it would still be a bit insane not having to make a single spear or log armor until you start to use dark swords and ham bats (which are on a league of their own). I think it being tanky and able to deal with minor enemies is a good thing, but not a fighting unit on it's own.

That aside, another thing that could be added to Woodie himself, based on his "celebrate Thanksgiving early" perk (which increases the time for which pigmen, bunnymen, and rock lobsters follow you), is that he could have an easier time taming beefalos. Very gimmicky, I know, but it makes sense with what he already has.

What makes Woodie so fun in single player is the fact that you can enjoy being a beaver... This is exactly the problem with Willow and fire immunity in DST. Some considerations were made for PvP when Willow and Woodie were introduced to DST and these affected the character for everyone

all that Woodie does is being a really mediocre character tbh. He needs a solid beaver form to be useful cuz his character is intrinsically connected to the beaver form. 

Rn Werebeaver can't use inventory or armor of any kind. His raw dmg is 27.5.. Less than a Spear... It takes ages to kill a single shadow creature or anything really... It's just not fun... He needs more raw dmg to be self-reliant and have fun a beaver. Standing on their own us something the devs have in mind for character rebalance. 

I suggested 60% armor cuz it's more on the balance side than 80% btw... Woodie cannot equip anything armor-wise... Pls compare to Wilba in single player. She is pretty much Woodie 2.0.

U mentioned the ability access raw dmg but Wolfgang can do that pretty much day one mighty with a Spear... Or Wigfrid.. She already has those 2 items already from the start and by day 2 u can easily have access to a hambat and football helmet in dst.. It's not really that hard and every item you can use outranks what Woodie can do now as beaver. He needs to be more effective both as a fighter and lumberjack

While you are trying to gather logs or mine you feel like the beaver form is more an impediment that a way to experience another side of woodie.. Which then makes the beaver form something you need to avoid instead to be something you can use to be useful

Woodie in human Form is really underwhelming.. He has 2 perks really that are good and then the rest is just filler... One of those fillers is 35 insulation.. Not even rabbit muffins (50) and befriending companions.. That's.. as you point out.. Gimmicky.. Doesn't really add to his character and deviates from his most important character flaws. It's fine for shenanigans but doesn't have anything to do with the beaver or lumberjack, which are his core character traits

[4 Da LOLs]

ok so lets find the base problems with Woodie that make him so undesirable to play or have in team comp

1 he eats away at there own stocks to keep beaver in check to not transform in bad times

2 the beaver is weak and more undesirable then to be human in almost all circumstances

3 his material gathering is practically just Maxwell downgrade

4 the sanity loss almost forces you to use beaver in combat a thing that the DST beaver is incapable of

5 he has such unnoticed stats such as the natural insulation and longer friendship timer they should be dropped or improved

 

if you have more problems with Woodie you say them we must understand what is wrong before we start jumping to actual rework stats

[4 Da LOLs]

Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

In previous posts we all have stated this many times... But that's pretty much a good list of the problems.. 

its more of just an easy way to comprehend the problems in a simple quick way

[Toros]

1 hour ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

ok so lets find the base problems with Woodie that make him so undesirable to play or have in team comp

1 he eats away at there own stocks to keep beaver in check to not transform in bad times

2 the beaver is weak and more undesirable then to be human in almost all circumstances

3 his material gathering is practically just Maxwell downgrade

4 the sanity loss almost forces you to use beaver in combat a thing that the DST beaver is incapable of

5 he has such unnoticed stats such as the natural insulation and longer friendship timer they should be dropped or improved

 

if you have more problems with Woodie you say them we must understand what is wrong before we start jumping to actual rework stats

I’d like to elaborate on a lot of these points.

1) Correctly played, Woodie doesn’t need to eat wood at all.  You cycle into werebeaver to restore your wood meter, and then back to human before your sanity drains, and then plant pinecones to restore sanity.

2) There are a few situations where werebeaver is useful.  There’s a ruins rush strat where you basically keep running as werebeaver until you get to the ruins and then go on your merry way.  I don’t care for it personally, but it works.  Also, in a winter start or if flint is hard to come by initially werebeaver helps substantially.

3) True

4) You should be shifting back before insanity sets in, in most cases.

5) The way his friendship perk works is he can befriend pigs for a longer maximum duration (3 days instead of 2.5 days) and he gets 50% more time per mineral or carrot from bunnymen or rock lobsters.  It’s pretty bad.

On the other hand, Woodie has 45 innate insulation (equivalent to Wilson’s level 2 beard) which is nearly rabbit earmuffs.  This is small but useful, particularly for a winter start.

The truth is that Woodie is substantially underrated.  Some innate insulation, excellent sanity control, some useful survival perks make Woodie above average for some harsher than vanilla worlds, as he deals well with light’s out or perma winter worlds, and has a unique ruins rush strategy.

That said, werebeaver is incredibly weak and disappointing, and there’s nothing OP about giving it tentacle spike + log suit stats, as Woodie in human form easily surpasses those combat stats.  That’s why my rework focused on making werebeaver a better general gatherer and restoring the moderate combat stats of singleplayer Werebeaver.

Woodie has been described as a hybrid fighter/gatherer and in his singleplayer incarnation that’s definitely true.  Doing both jobs decently better than average can outweigh simply doing one thing extremely well the way Max works.

As I said earlier, just making him better at wood collection doesn’t fix his core issue.

[Spep]

give em the ability to craft maple syrup, it shall be perfect.

[4 Da LOLs]

45 minutes ago, Toros said:

1) Correctly played, Woodie doesn’t need to eat wood at all.  You cycle into werebeaver to restore your wood meter, and then back to human before your sanity drains, and then plant pinecones to restore sanity.

oof i forgot that sorry i was and still is tired

 

46 minutes ago, Toros said:

2) There are a few situations where werebeaver is useful.  There’s a ruins rush strat where you basically keep running as werebeaver until you get to the ruins and then go on your merry way.  I don’t care for it personally, but it works.  Also, in a winter start or if flint is hard to come by initially werebeaver helps substantially.

yeah i know i just think there could be more for how easy it is to do it

 

47 minutes ago, Toros said:

5) The way his friendship perk works is he can befriend pigs for a longer maximum duration (3 days instead of 2.5 days) and he gets 50% more time per mineral or carrot from bunnymen or rock lobsters.  It’s pretty bad.

thats why we should improve it or drop it

 

49 minutes ago, Toros said:

That said, werebeaver is incredibly weak and disappointing, and there’s nothing OP about giving it tentacle spike + log suit stats, as Woodie in human form easily surpasses those combat stats.  That’s why my rework focused on making werebeaver a better general gatherer and restoring the moderate combat stats of singleplayer Werebeaver.

yeap

[pedregales]

3 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

What makes Woodie so fun in single player is the fact that you can enjoy being a beaver... This is exactly the problem with Willow and fire immunity in DST. Some considerations were made for PvP when Willow and Woodie were introduced to DST and these affected the character for everyone

Agree to an extent. Not all of Werebeaver mechanics could be passed to Together, mainly when he de-transforms, time jumps a day and Woodie has lost around half of all of his stats, leaving him vulnerable until you ate something. Also, Woodie is fun in vanilla and RoG, in SW and part of Hamlet he is not so much because beaver drowns, and breaks boats upon transformation (also can't enter boats); he needs some improvements on those DLCs as well.

3 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

all that Woodie does is being a really mediocre character tbh. He needs a solid beaver form to be useful cuz his character is intrinsically connected to the beaver form. 

[...]

Woodie in human Form is really underwhelming.. He has 2 perks really that are good and then the rest is just filler... One of those fillers is 35 insulation.. Not even rabbit muffins (50) and befriending companions.. That's.. as you point out.. Gimmicky.. Doesn't really add to his character and deviates from his most important character flaws. It's fine for shenanigans but doesn't have anything to do with the beaver or lumberjack, which are his core character traits

The thing is Woodie is 2 entities in one, and both should be encouraged to be played, not just one. I agree the beaver is lackluster in combat, but 51 damage, 60% armor (or even 25% which is his actual armor), huge insulation from hot and cold, nightvision, and 10% speed buff really make for an insanely powerful entity, specially since he is not using resources at all; with the only downside being insanity (which also makes farming nightmare fuel easier, something that is seen as a "perk" of sorts) and headaches from all the sounds and effects in-game (which can be turned off with mods, though that is optional). This beaver would only pale against most bosses mostly because of nightmare creatures spawning, but everything else would be better to deal as a beaver, faming would be better as a beaver as you can not only chop faster, but mine faster as well. And all of that can be done in complete darkness with no lights.

The insulation is mildly useful, the companions are gimmicky, but it does add to his character, he is a lumberjack, a beaver, and canadian (who are stereotyped as "very friendly people"), I would even go as far as say his lumberjack part comes from being a canadian (again, stereotypes).

So, Woodie and beaver should balance themselves out at least a bit. Since beaver is already great at farming and scouting, leave Woodie as the combat part and simply improve beaver's farming and scouting capabilities.

3 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Rn Werebeaver can't use inventory or armor of any kind. His raw dmg is 27.5.. Less than a Spear... It takes ages to kill a single shadow creature or anything really... It's just not fun... He needs more raw dmg to be self-reliant and have fun a beaver. Standing on their own us something the devs have in mind for character rebalance.

Beaver doesn't need more damage to be self-reliant, but he does need some quality of life changes, most notably being able to use the map, and at least pick up items on the floor, and also not dropping the frigging equipped items!

3 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I suggested 60% armor cuz it's more on the balance side than 80% btw... Woodie cannot equip anything armor-wise... Pls compare to Wilba in single player. She is pretty much Woodie 2.0.

I don't have a problem with 60% armor (I even suggested it alongside an increase to health to 250 in werebeaver form), or even 80% armor, I do have a problem with 51 damage (though I am not fully against it, I just see it as a bit too good when you consider the rest of things the werebeaver has, maybe with it's current armor or no armor at all it could be balanced), even 34 damage is a substantial increase considering he uses no durability on weapon or armor, and is a better inherent kiter than Woodie (who needs to equip-unequip walking cane to surpass or equal the beaver as a kiter). With 34 damage you are killing spiders in 3 hits instead of 4 and hounds in 5 hits instead of 6, and with 51 you are killing spiders in a mere 2 hits, and hounds in 3; with no durability loss in armor or weapon.

Wilba is indeed Woodie 2.0; and is a bit OP in her own right. Of course, because of WereWilba's immense hunger rate, and the fact that you can't buy stuff and you will be attacked on sight by hamlets/pigmen/bunnymen, there is a reason to play as regular Wilba at least in some points of the game; otherwise you will be just killing and killing to keep the hunger up. With Woodie you wouldn't really have that dire necessity with this changes.

3 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

U mentioned the ability access raw dmg but Wolfgang can do that pretty much day one mighty with a Spear... Or Wigfrid.. She already has those 2 items already from the start and by day 2 u can easily have access to a hambat and football helmet in dst.. It's not really that hard and every item you can use outranks what Woodie can do now as beaver. He needs to be more effective both as a fighter and lumberjack

While you are trying to gather logs or mine you feel like the beaver form is more an impediment that a way to experience another side of woodie.. Which then makes the beaver form something you need to avoid instead to be something you can use to be useful

With Wolfgang you don't want to stay Mighty all the time because of the hunger rate (just like Wilba, and just like her he is OP in his own right) so you have a reason to stay regular or Mighty depending on your necessity, and maybe even Wimpy if you are base building, also even if you are saving half the weapon durability as Mighty Wolfgang you are still using it, and you are also using armor and very likely insulation/summer items. Werebeaver uses none of that.

[minespatch]

All I want is Woodie to have a werebeaver taxi service.

[Daxterr]

The cost of turning into a beaver obviously needs to go way down. 

Also he could get a really high chance of activating treeguards and a MASSIVE damage bonus against treeguards.

[FreyaMaluk]

9 hours ago, 4 Da LOLs said:

what if pigs chopped faster than normal too?

it would help battle Maxwell

They chop faster in numbers that is the meta

46 minutes ago, Daxterr said:

The cost of turning into a beaver obviously needs to go way down. 

Also he could get a really high chance of activating treeguards and a MASSIVE damage bonus against treeguards.

As a Werebeaver he is the king killing poisoned Birchnut trees... Only 3 gnaws.. That's pretty much the only thing he is really good in his lumberjack theme. 

[FreyaMaluk]

10 hours ago, pedregales said:

Agree to an extent. Not all of Werebeaver mechanics could be passed to Together, mainly when he de-transforms, time jumps a day and Woodie has lost around half of all of his stats, leaving him vulnerable until you ate something. Also, Woodie is fun in vanilla and RoG, in SW and part of Hamlet he is not so much because beaver drowns, and breaks boats upon transformation (also can't enter boats); he needs some improvements on those DLCs as well.

I agree Woodie in DS needs some additions that I have already suggested many times

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/104887-what-do-yall-think-of-woodie/?do=findComment&comment=1182684

Quote

DS Woodie needs:

- don't drop inventory as beaver

- swim as beaver

- doesn't get affected by full moon cycle in the caves and ruins

I even made a meme about it 

Woodie is not perfect in DS but he is clearly way more FUN than in DST.

10 hours ago, pedregales said:

Wilba is indeed Woodie 2.0; and is a bit OP in her own right. Of course, because of WereWilba's immense hunger rate, and the fact that you can't buy stuff and you will be attacked on sight by hamlets/pigmen/bunnymen, there is a reason to play as regular Wilba at least in some points of the game; otherwise you will be just killing and killing to keep the hunger up. With Woodie you wouldn't really have that dire necessity with this changes.

With Wolfgang you don't want to stay Mighty all the time because of the hunger rate (just like Wilba, and just like her he is OP in his own right) so you have a reason to stay regular or Mighty depending on your necessity, and maybe even Wimpy if you are base building, also even if you are saving half the weapon durability as Mighty Wolfgang you are still using it, and you are also using armor and very likely insulation/summer items. Werebeaver uses none of that.

again.. Wolfgang has 10% speed bonus if mighty and maintaining his mightiness is pretty simple really cuz there is an overabundance of food in DST: berries, blue mushrooms, carrots, lichen.. all those you don't even need to cook... not even counting that he can kill pretty fast very single thing for meat.... even more so if he uses belt of hunger.. again having inventory choices it outclasses werebeaver at every turn.. that's why he needs at least something decent to begin with to be self-reliant

10 hours ago, pedregales said:

The thing is Woodie is 2 entities in one, and both should be encouraged to be played, not just one. I agree the beaver is lackluster in combat, but 51 damage, 60% armor (or even 25% which is his actual armor), huge insulation from hot and cold, nightvision, and 10% speed buff really make for an insanely powerful entity, specially since he is not using resources at all; with the only downside being insanity (which also makes farming nightmare fuel easier, something that is seen as a "perk" of sorts) and headaches from all the sounds and effects in-game (which can be turned off with mods, though that is optional). This beaver would only pale against most bosses mostly because of nightmare creatures spawning, but everything else would be better to deal as a beaver, faming would be better as a beaver as you can not only chop faster, but mine faster as well. And all of that can be done in complete darkness with no lights.

if we compare for instance WX has constant light, crazy speed if overcharged at the cost of some sanity... compared to Werebeaver, WX is pretty much god tier broken... he can use the map.. doesn't freeze in winter... WX can even overcharge himself early on in the game if he dies and resurrects using a touch stone.. he can also overcharge himself using a telelocator staff and he can also ask wicker or max (if he's got the book) to overcharge him... End is Near Book is super cheap (only one red gem)

Wilba has much more control over her "curse" than Woodie ever had... she can avoid transforming completely with her necklace and her hunger rate is not really an issue cuz she can eat pretty much everything liek raw meat to keep the hunger up and her HP regens... not even a fair comparison to Woodie really in terms of animalistic form

-------------------

the concept of Woodie is that he SHOULD use both forms at will except on Full Moon when he is forced practically to transform.. that's the core of his character and he shouldn't be discouraged to use the beaver form... specially when the lumberjack and miner perks pretty much depend on it

if he is stronger as a beaver is gonna make him more useful.. like the fire immunity or new Bernie or catapults... they all stand out as strong options to make every character feel relevant... Woodie only has his werebeaver as a trait.. and that's were the core of the rework should be focused on

I personally find the insanity sounds very punishing.. that's why I HAVE to use a mod to disable them cuz they make me literally sick.. but that's a whole other conversation entirely.. btw the devs are gonna change insanity sounds both in DS and DST

 

10 hours ago, pedregales said:

The insulation is mildly useful, the companions are gimmicky, but it does add to his character, he is a lumberjack, a beaver, and canadian (who are stereotyped as "very friendly people"), I would even go as far as say his lumberjack part comes from being a canadian (again, stereotypes).

tbh I find these pretty meh... it doesn't make his core character very cool... just a bit or duck tape trying to fix the dmg of the size of football statium

10 hours ago, pedregales said:

So, Woodie and beaver should balance themselves out at least a bit. Since beaver is already great at farming and scouting, leave Woodie as the combat part and simply improve beaver's farming and scouting capabilities.

Beaver doesn't need more damage to be self-reliant, but he does need some quality of life changes, most notably being able to use the map,

I disagree with the notion that Woodie is great at farming... on the contrary... I think he is a very mediocre gatherer..  he cannot focus on gathering cuz he is interrupted by sanity issues at every turn.. nightvision is a nice perk but doesn't make for the best explorer cuz he can't see the map... something you already said he should have.. having a lantern, something I can consistently can do by day 2 with any character plus map plus inventory use, is gonna surpass Werebeaver always... even in the caves you can just eat lesser glow berries and be already better than Werebeaver

Werebeaver as a concept from DS was both gatherer and fighter.. I don't see why it should any different in DST... it should be Woodie's choice which one he wants to use... cuz both are Woodie

10 hours ago, pedregales said:

and at least pick up items on the floor, and also not dropping the frigging equipped items!

ok.. this is links to an idea I can support... Woodie should have EITHER natural armor OR being able to keep and pick up helmets 

10 hours ago, pedregales said:

I don't have a problem with 60% armor (I even suggested it alongside an increase to health to 250 in werebeaver form), or even 80% armor, I do have a problem with 51 damage (though I am not fully against it, I just see it as a bit too good when you consider the rest of things the werebeaver has, maybe with it's current armor or no armor at all it could be balanced), even 34 damage is a substantial increase considering he uses no durability on weapon or armor, and is a better inherent kiter than Woodie (who needs to equip-unequip walking cane to surpass or equal the beaver as a kiter). With 34 damage you are killing spiders in 3 hits instead of 4 and hounds in 5 hits instead of 6, and with 51 you are killing spiders in a mere 2 hits, and hounds in 3; with no durability loss in armor or weapon.

coming back to armor.. .I think Woodie should have a choice.. either he can pick up helmets from the floor helmets or he has natural armor... but he needs something... I think that in a general sense is better that he can have natural armor cuz you avoid people stealing woodie's items in public servers...

the dmg is important cuz he doesn't have a choice.. remember that he cannot use inventory... He needs at least something decent to defend himself since he is is most of the time surrounded by a lot shadow creatures... that he is gonna be good is not gonna make him OP.. just fun

the problem with Woodie is that he has a huge sanity penalty but then no real means to counter that as beaver form... just an endless and boring and long way of farming nightmare fuel that any other character can do with a couple of green mushrooms and better equipment... you can even use a cane.. that it not the same as werebeaver actually cane is 25% speed.. beaver has 10%

Insulation as of now for Werebeaver in DST is not immunity like in DST. he has 70% water resistance and 240 insulation... this sounds nice on paper but what this means technically is that he can freeze to death as werebeaver cuz he cannot craft a fire... pretty much this

If he is wet..  then core temperature drops.. he freezes.. cannot craft a fire... or simply cannot make a fire in winter .. etc

As Willow with the fire immunity, he needs cold and wetness immunity... he is a beaver.. beavers live in water most of the time and you haven't seen a beaver crying cuz he is wet or cold.. it makes no sense...

In DST I've suggested that he should be affected by heat as beaver and human faster (natural beard and natural fur).. this could make a balance counterpart to his cold and wetness benefits.

TL:DR this is what I think DST Woodie needs:

- cold and wetness immunity as beaver

- higher dmg as Werebeaver (50 Dmg) 

- Amor as beaver:

• some natural armor as beaver (60% minimum) OR
• the ability to keep head gear and pick it up from the floor or inventory (maybe consider inventory use for second choice)

- more effective wood and rocks gathering mechanics as beaver (less gnawing to chop and mine).. 

- only one gnawing for tree stumps or no transition from Trees to stumps at all

- increased dmg against tree guardians as beaver and in human form

- reducing a bit of the sanity drain

[pedregales]

2 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

again.. Wolfgang has 10% speed bonus if mighty and maintaining his mightiness is pretty simple really cuz there is an overabundance of food in DST: berries, blue mushrooms, carrots, lichen.. all those you don't even need to cook... not even counting that he can kill pretty fast very single thing for meat.... even more so if he uses belt of hunger.. again having inventory choices it outclasses werebeaver at every turn.. that's why he needs at least something decent to begin with to be self-reliant

if we compare for instance WX has constant light, crazy speed if overcharged at the cost of some sanity... compared to Werebeaver, WX is pretty much god tier broken... he can use the map.. doesn't freeze in winter... WX can even overcharge himself early on in the game if he dies and resurrects using a touch stone.. he can also overcharge himself using a telelocator staff and he can also ask wicker or max (if he's got the book) to overcharge him... End is Near Book is super cheap (only one red gem)

Wilba has much more control over her "curse" than Woodie ever had... she can avoid transforming completely with her necklace and her hunger rate is not really an issue cuz she can eat pretty much everything liek raw meat to keep the hunger up and her HP regens... not even a fair comparison to Woodie really in terms of animalistic form

I really think comparing Woodie or werebeaver to Wolfgang and WX is a bad way to determine if it is self-reliant. As said in many posts, Wolfgang and WX are a bit overdue and I am sure most of us expect a nerf or 2 to them and Wicker once their re-works come (though that might not happen considering Bernie and Winona).

As for Wilba, I agree that she has way more control over her form. But her hunger rate is indeed a problem: she can eat anything, but you got to be eating every few seconds and her health regen ain't helping that (although that alone is pretty cheap).

2 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

the concept of Woodie is that he SHOULD use both forms at will except on Full Moon when he is forced practically to transform.. that's the core of his character and he shouldn't be discouraged to use the beaver form... specially when the lumberjack and miner perks pretty much depend on it

if he is stronger as a beaver is gonna make him more useful.. like the fire immunity or new Bernie or catapults... they all stand out as strong options to make every character feel relevant... Woodie only has his werebeaver as a trait.. and that's were the core of the rework should be focused on

I disagree with the notion that Woodie is great at farming... on the contrary... I think he is a very mediocre gatherer..  he cannot focus on gathering cuz he is interrupted by sanity issues at every turn.. nightvision is a nice perk but doesn't make for the best explorer cuz he can't see the map... something you already said he should have.. having a lantern, something I can consistently can do by day 2 with any character plus map plus inventory use, is gonna surpass Werebeaver always... even in the caves you can just eat lesser glow berries and be already better than Werebeaver

Werebeaver as a concept from DS was both gatherer and fighter.. I don't see why it should any different in DST... it should be Woodie's choice which one he wants to use... cuz both are Woodie

[...]

the dmg is important cuz he doesn't have a choice.. remember that he cannot use inventory... He needs at least something decent to defend himself since he is is most of the time surrounded by a lot shadow creatures... that he is gonna be good is not gonna make him OP.. just fun

the problem with Woodie is that he has a huge sanity penalty but then no real means to counter that as beaver form... just an endless and boring and long way of farming nightmare fuel that any other character can do with a couple of green mushrooms and better equipment... you can even use a cane.. that it not the same as werebeaver actually cane is 25% speed.. beaver has 10%

Werebeaver is really good at farming, is just, as you said, that nightmare creatures crawl over him because of the insane amount of sanity he loses as werebeaver, but that could be toned down. He also really should be able to see the map, but that doesn't make it a mediocre explorer in the slightest; you don't need to make the lantern or eat the berries.

I agree that the werebeaver should be more useful and their use shouldn't be discouraged, but that can be done in other ways other than damage: reduce insanity of beaver considerably, let him pick/drop things even if he is not able to use them, and let him see the map.

I guess you are right about DST Woodie not having to be necessarily different to DS Woodie. Still think they should complement each other instead of being a "better version".

2 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Insulation as of now for Werebeaver in DST is not immunity like in DST. he has 70% water resistance and 240 insulation... this sounds nice on paper but what this means technically is that he can freeze to death as werebeaver cuz he cannot craft a fire... pretty much this

If he is wet..  then core temperature drops.. he freezes.. cannot craft a fire... or simply cannot make a fire in winter .. etc

As Willow with the fire immunity, he needs cold and wetness immunity... he is a beaver.. beavers live in water most of the time and you haven't seen a beaver crying cuz he is wet or cold.. it makes no sense...

In DST I've suggested that he should be affected by heat as beaver and human faster (natural beard and natural fur).. this could make a balance counterpart to his cold and wetness benefits.

I agree on wetness immunity. I am not entirely sure about cold immunity. It makes sense, but it is a lot like how some people want Willlow to be fire and heat immune, is a bit over the top. And winter is already an easier season than summer to an extent.

2 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

TL:DR this is what I think DST Woodie needs:

- cold and wetness immunity as beaver

- higher dmg as Werebeaver (50 Dmg) 

- AMOR:

• some natural armor as beaver (60% minimum) OR
• the ability to keep head gear and pick it up from the floor or inventory (maybe consider inventory use for second choice)

- more effective wood and rocks gathering mechanics (less gnawing to chop and mine).. 

- only one gnawing for tree stumps or no transition from Trees to stumps at all

- increased dmg against tree guardians

- reducing a bit of the sanity drain

My version would be like this:

• Wetness immunity as beaver.
• Higher armor (60%) and health (250) as Werebeaver. Or have no natural armor, and let it wear head gear items (he should be able to use them from inventory) and increase it's health (250) as werebeaver. Maybe even increase his natural speed to +25% instead of +10%.
• Some items to enter werebeaver form (moon rocks could work since they are moon related) or to avoid it even during full moon (I think cat cap is a good idea to give it a niche).
• Werebeaver should only lose 15 san/min, but should lose 90 san/min if log meter is at 0 (or maybe below 5) points. Also, 0 log meter does not start drain your health, of course werebeaver can starve from hunger (instead of log meter).
• Werebeaver should be able to open map, pick/drop items, and consume woodiness altering items (logs, boards, etc.).
• More effective wood and rocks gathering mechanics (less gnawing to chop and mine). Only one gnaw to dig up tree stumps.
• Increased dmg against tree guardians (I think it is already that way?).

[FreyaMaluk]

22 minutes ago, pedregales said:

I really think comparing Woodie or werebeaver to Wolfgang and WX is a bad way to determine if it is self-reliant. As said in many posts, Wolfgang and WX are a bit overdue and I am sure most of us expect a nerf or 2 to them and Wicker once their re-works come (though that might not happen considering Bernie and Winona).

As for Wilba, I agree that she has way more control over her form. But her hunger rate is indeed a problem: she can eat anything, but you got to be eating every few seconds and her health regen ain't helping that (although that alone is pretty cheap).

Werebeaver is really good at farming, is just, as you said, that nightmare creatures crawl over him because of the insane amount of sanity he loses as werebeaver, but that could be toned down. He also really should be able to see the map, but that doesn't make it a mediocre explorer in the slightest; you don't need to make the lantern or eat the berries.

I agree that the werebeaver should be more useful and their use shouldn't be discouraged, but that can be done in other ways other than damage: reduce insanity of beaver considerably, let him pick/drop things even if he is not able to use them, and let him see the map.

I guess you are right about DST Woodie not having to be necessarily different to DS Woodie. Still think they should complement each other instead of being a "better version".

I agree on wetness immunity. I am not entirely sure about cold immunity. It makes sense, but it is a lot like how some people want Willlow to be fire and heat immune, is a bit over the top. And winter is already an easier season than summer to an extent.

My version would be like this:

• Wetness immunity as beaver.
• Higher armor (60%) and health (250) as Werebeaver. Or have no natural armor, and let it wear head gear items (he should be able to use them from inventory) and increase it's health (250) as werebeaver. Maybe even increase his natural speed to +25% instead of +10%.
• Some items to enter werebeaver form (moon rocks could work since they are moon related) or to avoid it even during full moon (I think cat cap is a good idea to give it a niche).
• Werebeaver should only lose 15 san/min, but should lose 90 san/min if log meter is at 0 (or maybe below 5) points. Also, 0 log meter does not start drain your health, of course werebeaver can starve from hunger (instead of log meter).
• More effective wood and rocks gathering mechanics (less gnawing to chop and mine). Only one gnaw to dig up tree stumps.
• Werebeaver should be able to open map, pick/drop items, and consume woodiness altering items (logs, boards, etc.).
• Increased dmg against tree guardians (I think it is already that way?).

I think we have 2 slightly different views of Woodie.. But I don't think they are necessarily contradictory.. 

I still think that natural armor is the least convoluted solution to avoid stealing in public servers or finally give inventory access for more control. 

You have a much closer DS-ish idea of sanity for the beaver in DST. I personally think it should be a good  sanity drain for him in DST, but then give the means to counter it. Ergo why I believe extra dmg is needed. Otherwise is just plainly boring killing anything as a beaver. That also makes more sense in the theme of a "curse" as something risky but that can pay off. Rn it doesn't. I prefer to farm NF as human Form tenfold than beaver.. 10% speed and nightvision doesn't compensate for the benefits of inventory flexibility. 

[Toros]

15 hours ago, pedregales said:

-snip-

Wilba is indeed Woodie 2.0; and is a bit OP in her own right. Of course, because of WereWilba's immense hunger rate, and the fact that you can't buy stuff and you will be attacked on sight by hamlets/pigmen/bunnymen, there is a reason to play as regular Wilba at least in some points of the game; otherwise you will be just killing and killing to keep the hunger up. With Woodie you wouldn't really have that dire necessity with this changes.

With Wolfgang you don't want to stay Mighty all the time because of the hunger rate (just like Wilba, and just like her he is OP in his own right) so you have a reason to stay regular or Mighty depending on your necessity, and maybe even Wimpy if you are base building, also even if you are saving half the weapon durability as Mighty Wolfgang you are still using it, and you are also using armor and very likely insulation/summer items. Werebeaver uses none of that.

You’re forgetting about one huge issue with Werebeaver: you can’t use healing items.

In my rework this is negated somewhat because damage is done to log meter first with 80% innate armor, but with regular DST Woodie you can’t heal at all.

As far as Wilba, you can take advantage of the fact that her heath is always full when shifting back and the rapid regeneration she has to dramatically lower her effective hunger rate, For example, if you let her starve immediately and then feed her, she will regenerate health as her hunger meter goes back down.  Wilba can also use the map, access her inventory, and gets a massive speed boost.

As a Wolfgang player, I can assure you that you do in fact go mighty all the time.  The better a player someone playing Wolfgang is the sooner he’ll be perma-mighty, and solo I usually go mighty immediately for the speed boost.

Belt of hunger reduces Wolf’s maximum hunger drain to a very manageable 1.8x, barely more than his normal form drain.

7 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

again.. Wolfgang has 10% speed bonus if mighty and maintaining his mightiness is pretty simple really

-snip-

As Willow with the fire immunity, he needs cold and wetness immunity... he is a beaver.. beavers live in water most of the time and you haven't seen a beaver crying cuz he is wet or cold.. it makes no sense...

In DST I've suggested that he should be affected by heat as beaver and human faster (natural beard and natural fur).. this could make a balance counterpart to his cold and wetness benefits.

TL:DR this is what I think DST Woodie needs:

- cold and wetness immunity as beaver

- higher dmg as Werebeaver (50 Dmg) 

- Amor as beaver:

• some natural armor as beaver (60% minimum) OR
• the ability to keep head gear and pick it up from the floor or inventory (maybe consider inventory use for second choice)

- more effective wood and rocks gathering mechanics as beaver (less gnawing to chop and mine).. 

- only one gnawing for tree stumps or no transition from Trees to stumps at all

- increased dmg against tree guardians as beaver and in human form

- reducing a bit of the sanity drain

Wolfgang actually has a linearly scaling speed bonus up to 25% at 300 hunger.

I have an alternative perspective on DST woodie, though I really like your idea for DS woodie changes.

For DST, you usually have allies to help you, and if you buff Woodie’s gathering and combat, and eliminate the extra sanity drain, he can stay as a werebeaver and let allies gather the resources he drops/build fires to help him maintain temperature.

In my rework, werebeaver having synergy with human allies was a design goal.  If he has an ally with logs he can more easily change back or keep gnawing through a large amount of resources.  He’s a wood-powered combat and gathering machine, though his combat is never as good as Woodie’s would because human form armor and damage and healing (outside of wortox) will always be better.

5 hours ago, pedregales said:

I really think comparing Woodie or werebeaver to Wolfgang and WX is a bad way to determine if it is self-reliant. As said in many posts, Wolfgang and WX are a bit overdue and I am sure most of us expect a nerf or 2 to them and Wicker once their re-works come (though that might not happen considering Bernie and Winona).

As for Wilba, I agree that she has way more control over her form. But her hunger rate is indeed a problem: she can eat anything, but you got to be eating every few seconds and her health regen ain't helping that (although that alone is pretty cheap).

Werebeaver is really good at farming, is just, as you said, that nightmare creatures crawl over him because of the insane amount of sanity he loses as werebeaver, but that could be toned down. He also really should be able to see the map, but that doesn't make it a mediocre explorer in the slightest; you don't need to make the lantern or eat the berries.

I agree that the werebeaver should be more useful and their use shouldn't be discouraged, but that can be done in other ways other than damage: reduce insanity of beaver considerably, let him pick/drop things even if he is not able to use them, and let him see the map.

I guess you are right about DST Woodie not having to be necessarily different to DS Woodie. Still think they should complement each other instead of being a "better version".

I agree on wetness immunity. I am not entirely sure about cold immunity. It makes sense, but it is a lot like how some people want Willlow to be fire and heat immune, is a bit over the top. And winter is already an easier season than summer to an extent.

My version would be like this:

• Wetness immunity as beaver.
• Higher armor (60%) and health (250) as Werebeaver. Or have no natural armor, and let it wear head gear items (he should be able to use them from inventory) and increase it's health (250) as werebeaver. Maybe even increase his natural speed to +25% instead of +10%.
• Some items to enter werebeaver form (moon rocks could work since they are moon related) or to avoid it even during full moon (I think cat cap is a good idea to give it a niche).
• Werebeaver should only lose 15 san/min, but should lose 90 san/min if log meter is at 0 (or maybe below 5) points. Also, 0 log meter does not start drain your health, of course werebeaver can starve from hunger (instead of log meter).
• Werebeaver should be able to open map, pick/drop items, and consume woodiness altering items (logs, boards, etc.).
• More effective wood and rocks gathering mechanics (less gnawing to chop and mine). Only one gnaw to dig up tree stumps.
• Increased dmg against tree guardians (I think it is already that way?).

I personally feel that werebeaver being able to access their inventory isn’t necessary in DST.  You have allies who can provide you with resources to shift back in multiplayer and solo you can strategically make tree farms to make that process easier.

One of the reasons Werebeaver currently is quite bad at gathering resources is he needs 3x as many gnaws as pickaxe or shovel uses, and gains 1 to the wood meter for each gnaw.  Breaking a single boulder raises his log meter by 18, which makes his omnitool potential extremely limited.

Wilba has a better overall wereform, but it costs food to run and she has a lot less control over when she changes back.  Wilba’s normal form also has less perks than Woodie does (and being able to carry 200 sanity in a stack of pinecones is quite useful)

[FreyaMaluk]

17 minutes ago, Toros said:

I have an alternative perspective on DST woodie, though I really like your idea for DS woodie changes.

For DST, you usually have allies to help you, and if you buff Woodie’s gathering and combat, and eliminate the extra sanity drain, he can stay as a werebeaver and let allies gather the resources he drops/build fires to help him maintain temperature.

In my rework, werebeaver having synergy with human allies was a design goal.  If he has an ally with logs he can more easily change back or keep gnawing through a large amount of resources.  He’s a wood-powered combat and gathering machine, though his combat is never as good as Woodie’s would because human form armor and damage and healing (outside of wortox) will always be better.

I think that in an ideal world we can rely on other players and that's great but I don't think that's what the character rebalance is about. It's about each character being self-reliant and independent on their own BUT having a lot of synergy potential with other players. 

I disagree completely with the idea that we need to have other people to help him doing basic stuff... That's nice for private servers.. But he needs to be his own thing for public servers too... 

BTW.. Ty on the remark on Wolfy speed modifier.. I always forget that's a variable.. Derp xD

I'm not super against eliminating the sanity drain.. Tbh... I just find a meaningful idea to show he is cursed with some penalty.. But I won't miss the sanity drain if they take it out tbh xD

BTW if they take the sanity drain as beaver I hope they take out the sanity benefit from plating pine cones to make a solid balance 

And I'm glad you like the suggestions for ds woodie 

[Toros]

16 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I think that in an ideal world we can rely on other players and that's great but I don't think that's what the character rebalance is about. It's about each character being self-reliant and independent on their own BUT having a lot of synergy potential with other players. 

I disagree completely with the idea that we need to have other people to help him doing basic stuff... That's nice for private servers.. But he needs to be his own thing for public servers too... 

BTW.. Ty on the remark on Wolfy speed modifier.. I always forget that's a variable.. Derp xD

I'm not super against eliminating the sanity drain.. Tbh... I just find a meaningful idea to show he is cursed with some penalty.. But I won't miss the sanity drain if they take it out tbh xD

BTW if they take the sanity drain as beaver I hope they take out the sanity benefit from plating pine cones to make a solid balance 

And I'm glad you like the suggestions for ds woodie 

I also agree with (and have implemented) a lot of the suggestions you listed for Werebeaver.

Specifically:

-1 gnaw stump removal

-Wet immunity

-1 gnaw = 1 tool use for mining and shoveling

-limited cold (and heat) immunity, but if freezing or overheating the log meter drains much faster meaning beaver needs to consume a lot more wood or start taking starving damage.

-51 damage, 75% damage resist (remaining damage dealt to log meter first)

-Eating grass lowers log meter by 5 so Woodie can force a shift without trees nearby

-Map use restored

Having tested these (and a number of other changes) I find myself swapping often depending on what I’m doing.  Bosses are still more efficient in human form by a mile, but the tankiness of Werebeaver is helpful for hounds if you don’t have many tooth traps.

Werebeaver is good for building up wood supplies and then spending some on other resources.

[pedregales]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

You’re forgetting about one huge issue with Werebeaver: you can’t use healing items.

In my rework this is negated somewhat because damage is done to log meter first with 80% innate armor, but with regular DST Woodie you can’t heal at all.

As far as Wilba, you can take advantage of the fact that her heath is always full when shifting back and the rapid regeneration she has to dramatically lower her effective hunger rate, For example, if you let her starve immediately and then feed her, she will regenerate health as her hunger meter goes back down.  Wilba can also use the map, access her inventory, and gets a massive speed boost.

As a Wolfgang player, I can assure you that you do in fact go mighty all the time.  The better a player someone playing Wolfgang is the sooner he’ll be perma-mighty, and solo I usually go mighty immediately for the speed boost.

Belt of hunger reduces Wolf’s maximum hunger drain to a very manageable 1.8x, barely more than his normal form drain.

I did not forget, I just didn't think it was relevant because werebeaver has extra speed (as small as it is), meaning you can go for risky extra attacks (and deal slightly more damage), or stay on the safe side and keep doing the same pattern as with regular Woodie, essentially reducing damage taken. Woodie (and any other character) can almost do the same with a walking cane, and even better, only problem is correctly cycling between cane/weapon in-between attack intervals, requiring a more conscious effort. Healing is also mostly a problem against bosses, something werebeaver is ill-advised to fight against because of the nightmare creatures, and they usually have insanity auras.

Yeah, we all agree Wilba is slightly busted, it is almost fine though because she is only in DS, and there are no plans of bringing her to DST.

As for Wolfgang: yeah, it is doable to keep him Mighty all the time (or at the very least nearly all the time) with proper equipment or over-abundance of food, but that either requires caves (not all servers have them), or waiting a full in-game year to kill bearger (or patiently amass 90 little furs /s); which is not hard to kill, just have to wait a good time in-game before you can get the bearger vest. If you have caves though it is amazing, as not only you have access to slurpers, but also could potentially face toadstool to get the mushroom hats; though the latter is far more time and effort intensive. I still really think it is a bad idea to stay Mighty all the time.

[Canis]

Unpopular opinion:
I'd actually like QoL changes like the Werebeaver's animations being tweaked. Maybe even have a longer animation for transforming to/from beaver.

[Toros]

1 hour ago, pedregales said:

I did not forget, I just didn't think it was relevant because werebeaver has extra speed (as small as it is), meaning you can go for risky extra attacks (and deal slightly more damage), or stay on the safe side and keep doing the same pattern as with regular Woodie, essentially reducing damage taken. Woodie (and any other character) can almost do the same with a walking cane, and even better, only problem is correctly cycling between cane/weapon in-between attack intervals, requiring a more conscious effort. Healing is also mostly a problem against bosses, something werebeaver is ill-advised to fight against because of the nightmare creatures, and they usually have insanity auras.

Yeah, we all agree Wilba is slightly busted, it is almost fine though because she is only in DS, and there are no plans of bringing her to DST.

As for Wolfgang: yeah, it is doable to keep him Mighty all the time (or at the very least nearly all the time) with proper equipment or over-abundance of food, but that either requires caves (not all servers have them), or waiting a full in-game year to kill bearger (or patiently amass 90 little furs /s); which is not hard to kill, just have to wait a good time in-game before you can get the bearger vest. If you have caves though it is amazing, as not only you have access to slurpers, but also could potentially face toadstool to get the mushroom hats; though the latter is far more time and effort intensive. I still really think it is a bad idea to stay Mighty all the time.

There are tons of ways to make passive food farms without using the caves, or simply using Wolf’s ability to 1 shot spiders with a hambat to farm enormous amounts of meat.

Without caves I tend to prefer mass bee boxes to solve or at the very least supplement his hunger needs.  Winter ice provides abundant filler.

Solo vs duo is a different story, but solo the time savings from a built in cane often outweighs the food cost.

Wolfgang in general benefits from a very aggressive playstyle where you maximize the benefits of each time you go mighty.  Utilizing mighty form efficiently enough you eventually get to the point it’s sustainable.

I initially thought that Mighty form was better for only when you actually need to fight.  But as my skills have improved I’ve gotten much better at sustaining it.

Current DST Werebeaver is such utter garbage at fighting I wouldn’t ever do it, axe damage is trash even if you had 300% movespeed.

[axxel]

Here's my suggested list of changes.

• I don't consider his beaver form as a fighting form but nightmares are a pain to fight in this form - his sanity drop should be slowed down. 
• Because of above point planting trees shouldn't give that much sanity back; 1 sanity point per tree is enough imo.
• As an additional downside nearby all kind of birds or holding one give a (stronger) insanity aura to him. (except Giblet)
• He should carry more wood and/or wooden resources (around 20% more) - would be great to differentiate from Maxwell.
• Lucy should make small hints before full moon.

I already like his insulation and more follower time, please don't change it. If Klei wants to they can rework some mobs to remove special woodfarms (like bearger+forest).  

[DJO7000]

I don't think anybody mentioned how awesome it would be if the werebeaver could swim it wouldn't even be that op since boats are easy to make as woodie and it'll give him something that Maxwell can't do making him more unique also it would be really fun but if it ends up being too powerful they can just make his wetness to up as he's swimming so you can't just swim away from everything