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Why We Need Fire Immunity


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7 hours ago, Leonardo Cox said:

Then OP is wrong and needs to update his post on how enemies on fire actually work. I'd still say leave the loot burning unchanged.

With that said, that was the only thing I had against fire immunity (if it was true). Since it isn't then I'm for Willow getting full fire immunity as there isn't any reason for her not to have full immunity.  

Sorry for late reply, I was schleep.

Anyways, I already acknowledged this in the post.

23 hours ago, Canis said:

I'd also like to point out the fact that bosses don't panic when on fire, so they're able to attack you. So no, it's not as OP as it sounds.

 

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2 hours ago, Chris1448 said:

If you're playing as Wortox why don't you just equip the lazy explorer?
If you're playing as Winona why don't you just craft the sewing kit?
If you're playing as Wigfrid why don't you just equip a football helmet and spear?
If you're playing as Woodie why don't you just craft an axe?

Characters making better use of other items isn't new. That, and scales can be used on other more useful things like chests and furnaces. Scalemail can light stuff on fire, which I don't think anyone wants either. If you strike a Willow with fire immunity, will you get lit on fire? Last I checked, no.

Couldn't have said it better myself, thanks.

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1 hour ago, Leonardo Cox said:

Your post still has misinformation on how panicking works on non-boss enemies. They can still attack while on fire.

Not with the in-game testing I've done. Can you give me some examples of mobs that don't flinch?

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14 hours ago, Canis said:

Not with the in-game testing I've done. Can you give me some examples of mobs that don't flinch?

Bearger intentionally panics, but the rest do not.

Just lit Deerclops on fire, he just chased me and impaled me.

Didn't stop or freak out or anything.

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as I mentioned in my "In defense of Bernie" and also in my "fiery weapons" threads... I think there has to be something else beyond fire immunity... even if she gets it.. which I believe is kinda gonna happen.. If Klei looks at the Willow's pool... anyways... even if that happens Willow is not gonna be a good character after than in a cooperative sense

I'm also kinda conflicted with fire immunity in the Bernie thread... I see this is a nice feature... BUT as @ButterStuffedponted out.. fire immunity is more than anything: a nostalgic feature.. I like it... I get it.. flashy things are cool... but this is NOT gonna level up Willow on a coop sphere at the level with Maxwell, Webber, Wicker and even Winona 

what Willow needs.. ok Klei give her immunity.. cool.. but then give her more COOP PERKS AND (probably) CRAFTABLES 

cool character perks to stand on her own past the gimmick of fire and cool craftables to have a substantial reason you want to play her too. Both equally important and relevant..

if you go to the original thread.. there is not a single element that helps the group ... is just focused on Willow like in a bubble where the togetherness doesn't exist...

to make my position clearer.... In a general sense I don't care if she get the immunity... BUT I strongly disagree that she THEN doesn't burn loot to ash when she kills mobs by fire... that's just ridiculous.. which is a point I made before... and that wasn't even in DS in the first place to have a solid argument to ask for it

she enjoys SO MUCH seeing things burn.. that she doesn't care about what burns AT ALL.. here a perfect example:

Ashes of item- "I wish this thing was still burning, whatever it was." WHATEVER IT WAS

that explains Willow's thinking perfectly... and her mind set... again I don't really care if she gets fire immunity in a general sense... but she needs more than fire immunity to be GOOD FOR THE TEAM

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I still see 0 reason to well add this perk...
If you think about it Fire can easily initialize a chain reaction and literally destroy everything. If they give you 100% pernament Fire Resistance this encourages you to fight with fire, if you fight with Fire in a Forest, congrats you burnt the entire forest down, oh and by the way, it also burnt your entire base down, so have fun rebuillding it all, cheers!

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In the past, the thing I'd often hear people say is that Willow needs her full immunity back. So I was a bit surprised that Klei only buffed the current limit from 3 sec to 6 (at least that's the current proposal). I feel like this is an attempt at a compromise between immunity and no immunity. Is the reason for this truly an anti-griefing measure, or is it a balancing issue? Maybe it's an attempt at providing a level of difficulty in managing a 6 second limit?

I dunno, but at least a 6 second immunity with reduced damage is better than none, and does differentiate her from other characters. Of course full immunity would be the best, and maybe Klei will change their minds.

I was more hoping for Willow to get an active fire ability, as opposed to passive... also besides extinguishing fires, that's a good one but she's the Firestarter. She's already been proven to have supernatural fire abilities (causing fires when insane in DS). What if she's honed these abilities while in DST, and can... I dunno, start fires at will somehow? Be like the witch she's often teased to be? But it seems her "magic" is revolving around Bernie and not herself (is he her familiar??)

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On 4/26/2019 at 3:39 PM, Canis said:

I am NOT supportive of being able to light things on fire in your inventory, because THAT is when it would go into OP territory. However, if there was a DPS cap at maybe around 25-40 damage per second, I'd be all for it.

Burning items in your inventory was a thing in DST way back in early access. Klei didn't remove it because it was OP, but because it was an insane griefing tool. Aside from the fact that you could light something in your inventory and burn everything around you (including other players), you could actually give a flaming object to another player and they would start taking fire damage. 

There is in fact a DPS cap to fire damage: 120 damage per second. Why would Klei cap fire damage so high when the only practical application of a 120dps cap would be for fire farms and other fire related exploits? I have no idea. 

 

On 4/26/2019 at 3:39 PM, Canis said:

However, if you are constantly attacking a panicking mob, they won't run around (because they're flinching to player attacks) and instead be STUNNED until they either die or get extinguished. No other character in the game fills the niche of being able to stun mobs.

IMO, fire damage is the most underrated and overpowered mechanic in the game. Any character can abuse fire damage to stunlock enemies, not just Willow with fire immunity or a player wearing Scalemail. You actually don't need any sort of fire immunity. One of the best examples is using fire damage against a Spider Queen so she literally can't move.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bluegeist said:

I dunno, start fires at will somehow? Be like the witch she's often teased to be? But it seems her "magic" is revolving around Bernie and not herself (is he her familiar??)

one problem I see with this concept is that she really isn't a fire bender... she is a firestarter... I don't really think she can even control her impulses around fire... much less control fire itself..

I hope we get more info from the trailers.. I think a lot of concepts are gonna change

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4 hours ago, FreyaMaluk said:

as I mentioned in my "In defense of Bernie" and also in my "fiery weapons" threads... I think there has to be something else beyond fire immunity... even if she gets it.. which I believe is kinda gonna happen.. If Klei looks at the Willow's pool... anyways... even if that happens Willow is not gonna be a good character after than in a cooperative sense

I'm also kinda conflicted with fire immunity in the Bernie thread... I see this is a nice feature... BUT as @ButterStuffedponted out.. fire immunity is more than anything: a nostalgic feature.. I like it... I get it.. flashy things are cool... but this is NOT gonna level up Willow on a coop sphere at the level with Maxwell, Webber, Wicker and even Winona 

what Willow needs.. ok Klei give her immunity.. cool.. but then give her more COOP PERKS AND (probably) CRAFTABLES 

cool character perks to stand on her own past the gimmick of fire and cool craftables to have a substantial reason you want to play her too. Both equally important and relevant..

if you go to the original thread.. there is not a single element that helps the group ... is just focused on Willow like in a bubble where the togetherness doesn't exist...

to make my position clearer.... In a general sense I don't care if she get the immunity... BUT I strongly disagree that she THEN doesn't burn loot to ash when she kills mobs by fire... that's just ridiculous.. which is a point I made before... and that wasn't even in DS in the first place to have a solid argument to ask for it

she enjoys SO MUCH seeing things burn.. that she doesn't care about what burns AT ALL.. here a perfect example:

Ashes of item- "I wish this thing was still burning, whatever it was." WHATEVER IT WAS

that explains Willow's thinking perfectly... and her mind set... again I don't really care if she gets fire immunity in a general sense... but she needs more than fire immunity to be GOOD FOR THE TEAM

 

I wholly admit to mentioning multiple times I see Fire Immunity partially as a springboard to other, more creative perk ideas. I think it provides that foundation of classic Willow for Klei to work off of. I wouldn't describe it as flashy personally but that's subjective I guess.
And I agree that Fire Immunity wouldn't be enough, I'm not shying away from that. Really fire immunity along with removing all her weaksauce perks and replacing it with 1 or 2 actually salient perks based on fire immunity (or at least with it in mind) would make sense to me.

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4 hours ago, FuffledBeeQueen said:

I still see 0 reason to well add this perk...
If you think about it Fire can easily initialize a chain reaction and literally destroy everything. If they give you 100% pernament Fire Resistance this encourages you to fight with fire, if you fight with Fire in a Forest, congrats you burnt the entire forest down, oh and by the way, it also burnt your entire base down, so have fun rebuillding it all, cheers!

 

If you think like this then there's a whole lot of downsides and perks that are gonna need to be removed. If you think about it Wolfgang's downside encourages hoarding food which can easily kill off a base because they eat everything. WX's gear's cost needs to be removed as well because it encourages players to hoard and eat gears, not allowing some essential items for base to be made. The idea of "this could potentially encourage bad behavior" is a factor, yes, but it's far from the primary concern when designing a good perk.

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15 minutes ago, KoreanWaffles said:

Burning items in your inventory was a thing in DST way back in early access. Klei didn't remove it because it was OP, but because it was an insane griefing tool. Aside from the fact that you could light something in your inventory and burn everything around you (including other players), you could actually give a flaming object to another player and they would start taking fire damage. 

There is in fact a DPS cap to fire damage: 120 damage per second. Why would Klei cap fire damage so high when the only practical application of a 120dps cap would be for fire farms and other fire related exploits? I have no idea. 

 

This is why almost every time I've suggested inventory burning recently I've pointed out I'd like it to be better modified to be multiplayer friendly.
Give it a fair dps cap, remove its ignition, and clean up it damaging other players. Throw in some nice animations/effects and you've got yourself the only default character-based AoE attack in the game, which is what I'd call refreshing.

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On 4/27/2019 at 8:08 AM, Mr.Mulk said:

because it's a perk that was previously taken out in a failed attempt to quell griefing. Because its removal did not end up stopping griefing in any way there's no reason to not add it back, as I considered it an integral part of Willow's character in DS.

Willow's fire immunity was not removed because of griefing. It was removed because Willow could completely dominate PVP, since she was the only character who couldn't get a large chunk of their health taken out via a few slaps with a torch. There was a point early on in DST's life where some popular streamers played a lot of PVP, and so Klei put some effort in trying to balance it.

While I agree that the previous reasoning isn't relevant anymore, and so fire immunity would be fine, I also think you shouldn't be spreading the misinformation that it had anything to do with griefing. It makes the decision from Klei seem incredibly stupid, when there was actually some good reasoning behind the change at the time.

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Just now, Sunset Skye said:

Willow's fire immunity was not removed because of griefing. It was removed because Willow could completely dominate PVP, since she was the only character who couldn't get a large chunk of their health taken out via a few slaps with a torch. There was a point early on in DST's life where some popular streamers played a lot of PVP, and so Klei put some effort in trying to balance it.

While I agree that the previous reasoning isn't relevant anymore, and so fire immunity would be fine, I also think you shouldn't be spreading the misinformation that it had anything to do with griefing. It makes the decision from Klei seem incredibly stupid, when there was actually some good reasoning behind the change at the time.

 

While the reasoning I've always heard was it was part of an attempt to quell griefing (from multiple sources) I'll take it into consideration, and think of it as a piece in the puzzle. However, I'm not a fan of saying I'm spreading misinformation, I've only heard the "quelling griefing" reason ever given, and have just been operating with the best information available to me.

Regardless, the point still stands that there's no reason to not bring it back, even if that is correct.

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4 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:
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 replacing it with 1 or 2 actually salient perks based on fire immunity (or at least with it in mind) would make sense to me.

fire ... is destructive ... and I think the devs don't wanna trivialize it. if we are being honest.. there isn't that much you can do fire in a COOP SENSE... unless you don't take it that literal (fiery weapons, scaled lanterns, fuel efficiency, etc)

building other perks that don't necessarily revolve around fire aren't per se bad... Willow is more than being a pyro... she is a badass with a "I don't care what you think" kinda personality... and she also has a tender side.. kinda hidden.. but all these we haven't seen in place... YET

many people think Bernie is not part of her as a character but she is inspired by the Stephen King's book Firestarter and Charlie.. check this post by with a nice compilation of all her references 

 

So... let's try to think about more constructive and coop perks for multiplayer related somehow to fire and also non related to it.. but the "full burning ****" kinda ideas aren't gonna finally make it better.. 

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5 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

fire ... is destructive ... and I think the devs don't wanna trivialize it. if we are being honest.. there isn't that much you can do fire in a COOP SENSE... unless you don't take it that literal (fiery weapons, scaled lanterns, fuel efficiency, etc)

building other perks that don't necessarily revolve around fire aren't per se bad... Willow is more than being a pyro... she is a badass with a "I don't care what you think" kinda personality... and she also has a tender side.. kinda hidden.. but all these we haven't seen in place... YET

many people think Bernie is not part of her as a character but she is inspired by the Stephen King's book Firestarter and Charlie.. check this post by with a nice compilation of all her references 

So... let's try to think about more constructive and coop perks for multiplayer related somehow to fire and also non related to it.. but the "full burning ****" kinda ideas aren't gonna finally make it better.. 

 

Yes, fire is destructive (also I really don't see how fire immunity makes it more/less destructive), but I don't think making the "Firestarter" character more related to, yknow, fire, is trivializing in any sense of the word. And building characters solely around Co-op play is a mistake, what about people who purposely play by themselves and either don't want to play DS (For DST's conent) or just can't afford DS? I think it would be in poor taste to design a character they can't enjoy to the fullest solely because they chose to play the game alone.

So yes, while Co-op perks can be nice a character should be able to stand on their own regardless, which if we build with only the thought of Co-op I don't think will be the case.

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8 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:
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Yes, fire is destructive, but I don't think making the "Firestarter" character more related to, yknow, fire, is trivializing in any sense of the word. And building characters solely around Co-op play is a mistake, what about people who purposely play by themselves and either don't want to play DS (For DST's conent) or just can't afford DS? I think it would be in poor taste to design a character they can't enjoy to the fullest solely because they chose to play the game alone.

So yes, while Co-op perks can be nice a character should be able to stand on their own regardless, which if we build with only the thought of Co-op I don't think will be the case.

cuz this is DS TOGETHER... I assure you... the devs are gonna always take this character rebalance in multiplayer focus... 

even if people play by themselves.. other perks that aren't related to fire are also useful... like Winona crafting stuff faster for instance.. it's a nice perk that can be used by her if alone or in a group to make base building more time efficient.

if you want the solo experience then consider playing DS.. but don't expect the updates are gonna be around the solo experience...  the devs are gonna give her stuff to stand alone in a group... and be independent... so independent that she can be played solo too... but never as main focus for the solo experience

I don't get why u say "poor game design" when the devs build around the togetherness aspect.. that's pretty much the point playing DST.. again don't expect Willow DST is gonna be as Willow DS... that's not gonna happen.. even if they give up on the fire immunity they are gonna give her other perks that don't involved fire so she can be more versatile...

like using an army or bernies... I think that sounds like fun

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27 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

cuz this is DS TOGETHER... I assure you... the devs are gonna always take this character rebalance in multiplayer focus... 

even if people play by themselves.. other perks that aren't related to fire are also useful... like Winona crafting stuff faster for instance.. it's a nice perk that can be used by her if alone or in a group to make base building more time efficient.

if you want the solo experience then consider playing DS.. but don't expect the updates are gonna be around the solo experience...  the devs are gonna give her stuff to stand alone in a group... and be independent... so independent that she can be played solo too.

 

Ignoring the potential singleplayer aspect in a game which has additional content from DS would be a legitimate tragedy, locking the full experience of said content to be dependent on whether or not you can muster up other players (which you may not always want or be able to do).

Characters that are useful on their own in solo are often the most useful in a Co-op setting, just a consideration. Think about Wolfgang, his perks are all self-focused and yet he is excellent in aiding the team. Same with WX. So no, buffing a character themselves without intentionally going out of your way to buff the multiplayer aspect does not mean the perks won't benefit the whole team. If anything, making character's that are worthwhile to play on their own only makes them more likely to be useful in a Co-op setting.

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27 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I don't get why u say "poor game design" when the devs build around the togetherness aspect.. that's pretty much the point playing DST.. again don't expect Willow DST is gonna be as Willow DS... that's not gonna happen.. even if they give up on the fire immunity they are gonna give her other perks that don't involved fire so she can be more versatile...

like using an army or bernies... I think that sounds like fun

 

I never said giving some thought to the second and third order effects of Co-op is "bad game design", merely that it shouldn't be the focus of a character's rework, simply based on the fact a lot of people play the game solo, which they should be completely allowed to do so.

Regardless this has digressed from the purpose of the original post. The point is that fire immunity:
- Is not OP
- Is not insignificant either
- Was removed for questionable reasons (either way) and should be readded
- Would act as an excellent springboard for other perks and be thematically fitting
- Would not cause a massive spike in griefing despite claims it would
- Would be a preferable alternative to the cobbled perks we got
- While it is purely subjective I consider it to be a part of what made Willow, well Willow

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59 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:
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Ignoring the potential singleplayer aspect in a game which has additional content from DS would be a legitimate tragedy, locking the full experience of said content to be dependent on whether or not you can muster up other players (which you may not always want or be able to do).

Characters that are useful on their own in solo are often the most useful in a Co-op setting, just a consideration. Think about Wolfgang, his perks are all self-focused and yet he is excellent in aiding the team. Same with WX. So no, buffing a character themselves without intentionally going out of your way to buff the multiplayer aspect does not mean the perks won't benefit the whole team. If anything, making character's that are worthwhile to play on their own only makes them more likely to be useful in a Co-op setting.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I never said giving some thought to the second and third order effects of Co-op is "bad game design", merely that it shouldn't be the focus of a character's rework, simply based on the fact a lot of people play the game solo, which they should be completely allowed to do so.

Regardless this has digressed from the purpose of the original post. The point is that fire immunity:
- Is not OP
- Is not insignificant either
- Was removed for questionable reasons (either way) and should be readded
- Would act as an excellent springboard for other perks and be thematically fitting
- Would not cause a massive spike in griefing despite claims it would
- Would be a preferable alternative to the cobbled perks we got
- While it is purely subjective I consider it to be a part of what made Willow, well Willow

Dude.. I already said that I'm in general sense not opposed to fire immunity.. Did you read my previous posts? 

What I mean with coop perks is that they have perks that serve to themselves and also others.. Wolfy and WX both even if have individual perks... But They combine well in a multiplayer setting.. Fire doesn't... That's why other more creative ways with fire and non fire perks need to brought to the table for her. Wolfy is a trade off for the team.. He requires a lot of resources but helps defend the base and other players.. WX helps gathering resources faster with speed.. Ofc you could play any character as a selfish  a s s  but that's not really how they are intended.. I mean.. Again.. Not opposed per se to fire immunity.. might be cool to see other perks she can use while others are playing with her.. Like if Willow is always burning **** to attack enemies other character can't really participate cuz they aren't fire immune.. 

At this point I think that I'm repeating myself so.. 

TL:DR don't really oppose fire immunity per se.. Willow get something we can all play together with you in a group .. Dont burn my  a s s  Ty 

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Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

Dude.. I already said that I'm in general sense not opposed to fire immunity.. Did you read my previous posts? 

No, I have not stated you are opposed to fire immunity, not sure where you're getting that from.

1 minute ago, FreyaMaluk said:

What I mean with coop perks is that they have perks that serve to themselves and also others.. Wolfy and WX both even if have individual perks... But They combine well in a multiplayer setting.. Fire doesn't... That's why other more creative ways with fire and non fire perks need to brought to the table for her. Wolfy is a trade off for the team.. He requires a lot of resources but helps defend the base and other players.. WX helps gathering resources faster with speed..

Okay but the point is that both Wolfgang and WX were designed to be individually good first, and as a result work well in a multiplayer setting.
The mindset shouldn't be "Oh let's design this character with the intent of them being used in a group setting," it should be "Let's design a good character first," then make considerations about how that applies to a multiplayer setting.
If you make Willow good for starters, with which I think fire immunity would be an integral piece in, then you make her better in a multiplayer setting as a result.

6 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Ofc you could play any character as a selfish  a s s  but that's not really how they are intended..

When did I say the intentional way to play characters is to be selfish? No, I said the best way to balance a character is to focus on them in solo first, then work from there.

9 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

Again.. Not opposed per se to fire immunity.. might be cool to see other perks she can use while others are playing with her.. Like if Willow is always burning **** to attack enemies other character can't really participate cuz they aren't fire immune..  

Perks are not inherently a zero-sum game. While there is a logical extent they can be taken to, to suggest that the addition of one perk is the lost value in the potential of another is not accounting for the relative weights of perks, and how Klei takes that into consideration.

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5 minutes ago, FuffledBeeQueen said:

I love how you drag non reworked Characters into this discussion. There is a reason why Klei said they want to rework EVERYONE not just a select few.

I don't even see what you're attempting to say here.

Yes, everyone is getting a rework, this does not invalidate the fact that as it currently stands WX and Wolfgang are good characters for teamwork because they were built to be good characters in solo.

So please explain to me how exactly the fact everyone's getting a rework changes that.

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