Why have key mechanics been trivialized?

[badgamer123]

3 hours ago, blash365 said:

We all liked that idea (the devs said it on their livestream as well). But the problem is that it never worked that way.

When i was training a miner, he would immediately gain the benefits of being a miner. No learning required. As soon as my courier perfected his courier job, he could immediately benefit from the exosuit trait even though he just had put his helmet on.

This is one of the reasons why it was changed to a skill system, because it actually was a skill system before. The representation just gave you the idea that it worked differently.

And even in the skill system you will have the "learning on the job" part, since you need to gather experience to aquire another profession.

You could change the old skill trees to only give you that skill after you 100% it?

3 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

I think they should tackle it by increasing the morale requirements for the highest tiers. This way you would have to think about morale before hitting those but the intermediate would be gated by skill points.

there would be the same thing happen...save up skill point until you got the golden allocation amount.
you would not want to pick mid tier since they are useless, master or none.it only changing the allocation from 4 mastery to 3 mastery.

 

 

[Gurgel]

10 hours ago, chemie said:

 So if they are trying to make this newb friendly, it is not. 

This is a survival game. Making it newbie friendly kills it.

[camelot]

As I suggested in this topic, we can increase early game morale requirement using a "buffer" between lower tier job (skill) and higher tier job.

For example, to progress to level 2 job, you need to invest 2-3 Skill points into something called "General Training" that basically serve as modifier for Attribute. Each General Traning level equal 0.5 Attribute and 1 dupe can acquire total 10 General Traning levels, equal increasing +5 to all Attributes.

This way, you still get something from Skill points spent on buffer zone. The morale requirement is higher than currently, but less than in QoL2 and the game progress in early game would be slower

Basically, it's similar to skill tree in RPG game Titan Quest, without Skill level and specialization of mastery for simplicity

[blash365]

12 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Yeah, but the new system got no "learning a job tree" part.

If we not talk about the very early game where you are limited by skill points, you will always go for a 2./3. tier job right away.

I dont get your point. What do you mean with "right away"? I am assuming that dupes start with 0 (first 3)/1 skill points. Every further skillpoint requires a more or less constant number of cycles to aquire. So if you mean 9 cycles of aquiring skillpoints when you are saying "right away". Then i understand what you are trying to say, but i still dont see the difference in comparison to "mastering a job in 3 cycles".

So is your point merely that aquiring skillpoints takes too short?

9 hours ago, badgamer123 said:

You could change the old skill trees to only give you that skill after you 100% it?

Yes, we could. But i doubt it would be well received.

It further increases the time until certain professions are usable. Delaying ranching, farming, mining hard materials, etc. It already took quite a while to get a rancher in the old system.

 

5 hours ago, camelot said:

For example, to progress to level 2 job, you need to invest 2-3 Skill points into something called "General Training" that basically serve as modifier for Attribute. Each General Traning level equal 0.5 Attribute and 1 dupe can acquire total 10 General Traning levels, equal increasing +5 to all Attributes.

This is an excellent suggestion. Let's hope crate doesnt hold the copyright on their skill system.;P

[Sasza22]

9 hours ago, badgamer123 said:

there would be the same thing happen...save up skill point until you got the golden allocation amount.
you would not want to pick mid tier since they are useless, master or none.it only changing the allocation from 4 mastery to 3 mastery.

If for example the mid tier was 3 morale req and master tier was 7 you`d have to think about it a bit more. You could get the top tier at 11 morale or 8 with interest but at the same time you could get 3 mid tier jobs at 12 morale or less with interests. You could either have a superspecialised dupe or a generally skilled one with the same requirements.

 

5 hours ago, camelot said:

For example, to progress to level 2 job, you need to invest 2-3 Skill points into something called "General Training" that basically serve as modifier for Attribute. Each General Traning level equal 0.5 Attribute and 1 dupe can acquire total 10 General Traning levels, equal increasing +5 to all Attributes.

This way, you still get something from Skill points spent on buffer zone. The morale requirement is higher than currently, but less than in QoL2 and the game progress in early game would be slower

Basically, it's similar to skill tree in RPG game Titan Quest, without Skill level and specialization of mastery for simplicity

So you mean the general traning would be like a gate to the higher tier of skills right? You`d need general training at 1 to get mid tier jobs (+ the beginner job obviously) and 2 to get the master tier. I think that would be a nice way to slow down the instant master scenario. It wouldn`t even have to give attributes if it`s just a prerequisite to a higher tier of jobs.

[camelot]

50 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

So you mean the general traning would be like a gate to the higher tier of skills right? You`d need general training at 1 to get mid tier jobs (+ the beginner job obviously) and 2 to get the master tier. I think that would be a nice way to slow down the instant master scenario. It wouldn`t even have to give attributes if it`s just a prerequisite to a higher tier of jobs.

Yes. You'll need something like 2 skill points to unlock tier 2 job, 4 more to unlock tier 3 job. and 4 more after tier 3. 

About spent points and gain nothing, many people might feel this mechanics punish them too harsh. Add some bonuses, even small one like 2-5% task speed (0.2-0.5 Attribute) each skill point spent will make people more happy. More complicated rule like first 2 General training points increase speed 4% each, 4 middle increase 3%, last 4 points increase 5% for total 40% increasing speed would be better

[camelot]

2 hours ago, blash365 said:

This is an excellent suggestion. Let's hope crate doesnt hold the copyright on their skill system.;P

Since this system is very common and very vague, it's likely that you can't patent it. But who knows, that patent world is kinda crazy

[Oozinator]

I bet/hope Klei has something in mind, with the changed skill system.
Now it's changed for at least three times, it must be good now.
 

[pacovf]

1 hour ago, camelot said:

Since this system is very common and very vague, it's likely that you can't patent it. But who knows, that patent world is kinda crazy

You cannot patent game mechanics.

[Yunru]

On 19/04/2019 at 4:21 PM, Alfons100 said:

Latrine and Washroom is the same, a latrine accepts both Outhouses and Lavatories, but it becomes a nicer "Bathroom" if it only has one Lavatory or Outhouse in it.

This way you can cram some more Morale by sacrificing space

Actually one toilet and sink per bathroom already is the best way to build, as you minimise dupe travel time while toileting.

[Lilalaunekuh]

2 hours ago, blash365 said:

14 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Yeah, but the new system got no "learning a job tree" part.

If we not talk about the very early game where you are limited by skill points, you will always go for a 2./3. tier job right away.

I dont get your point. What do you mean with "right away"?

In my little time of playtesting QoL3, I always went for learning a complete job tree.

=> My point is there is no commitment / planing ahead  needed to just reach a new (high) tier job.

(I collected my skill points and allocted "job tree wise", so except the early science job for my starter duplicants and cooking, I never learn just one part of a job tree.)

 

 

[blash365]

7 minutes ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

(I collected my skill points and allocted "job tree wise", so except the early science job for my starter duplicants and cooking, I never learn just one part of a job tree.)

That is your playstyle then.

I have several dupes, who only have lvl 1 or lvl 2 mining/building/etc. to allow them to chip in with the workforce. And i have around 8 skillpoints still sitting on those dupes unassigned, so the lategame tradeoff does work in my games.

I'd imagine players doing something similar in midgame, the difference being that the bottleneck is the number of skillpoints.

[Lilalaunekuh]

19 minutes ago, blash365 said:

I have several dupes, who only have lvl 1 or lvl 2 mining/building/etc. to allow them to chip in with the workforce. And i have around 8 skillpoints still sitting on those dupes unassigned, so the lategame tradeoff does work in my games.

If you progress a bit slow (like I do most of the time) you will have spare skill points early, like you said about your ~8 points.

 

But the big point for me is that if I specialize my duplicants, it´s about giving a duplicant all skills which help with the prioritized jobs.

=> I find no place in my base for inefficient but flexible workforce.

(I don´t need my cooks/farmers/... be able to do every other profession, just to not go idle.)

[blash365]

The old system served your needs well, but it had no penalties for players, who decided to go for super-dupes (all professions). The new system fills this gap. But i dont see a way of restricting lategame without dropping some of the requirements in early game (unless you add even more skill points for a "mastery" as already suggested #titanquest).

[0xFADE]

There is a pretty good barrier to entry you can tell people are hitting that we who have spent way to much time playing don’t have to worry about. 

[PhailRaptor]

17 hours ago, Yunru said:

Actually one toilet and sink per bathroom already is the best way to build, as you minimise dupe travel time while toileting.

However, doing this requires you either have some ridiculous scheduling restrictions, or quite a few of these single-occupant facilities to facilitate a functional base as your Dupe count grows.  This in turn causes issues with planning out your base, as you have to keep deducting space in certain areas, as well as allow for 2 more lines of plumbing to and from the location.

Trade-offs exist everywhere.

[Gurgel]

18 hours ago, Yunru said:

Actually one toilet and sink per bathroom already is the best way to build, as you minimise dupe travel time while toileting.

There is no general "best way". There is different possibilities, but they all have advantages and disadvantages. The only thing we can say (and even that is not absolute) is that everybody that gets a colony to permanent sustainability is doing something right.

There may be a "best way" for your play style, I am not disputing that. There is none for mine, as I like to experiment carefully and doing things differently becomes an advantage in itself.

[goboking]

The need to quarantine sick dupes plus vomiting from food poisoning or dying from slime lung made diseases feel like actual threats we had to work to avoid.  I'd personally rather have seldom but more potent sicknesses than frequent but trivial ones.

Furthermore, the consequences of diseases are now all essentially variations of the same thing: loss in duplicant productivity.  Food poisoning means more bathroom breaks, which means less productivity.  Slime lung means coughing fits, which means less productivity.  Zombie spores means massive stat debuffs, which means less productivity.  That's three different diseases whose symptoms all have essentially the same outcome.

Before, food poisoning meant vomiting, which meant a decor hit and massive cleanup projects.  Slime lung meant death, which meant...well, death.  And imagine zombie spores actually zombifying our dupes.

Now imagine our non-infected dupes had to restrain these poor guys until a cure could be administered.

An actual risk of a zombie apocalypse sounds far more interesting to me than than a stat debuff.

 

Credit to @watermelen671 for the animations.  You can find more of their work here.

[watermelen671]

19 minutes ago, goboking said:

An actual risk of a zombie apocalypse sounds far more interesting to me than than a stat debuff.

 

Credit to @watermelen671 for the animations.  You can find more of their work here.

To further add onto that I believe that Zombie spores should function by having a dupe's mind being taken over, and then used for the Sporechid's benefits.

Like for example, if a dupe gets infected, and isn't restrained, they will go around removing potted plants and replacing it with Sporechids, to get more dupes infected. 

Thus giving an explanation as to why Sporechids can be planted, and in return becoming an actual threat to the colony.