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ONI Biology thread deleted?

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blash365    569
15 hours ago, nakomaru said:

... exile ... dissidents ... last insult  ... will ...

Do you people ever read your own posts? Seriously, are you living in a difference dimension or something? Over here we are early accessing a video game. Not sure what you are doing over there in your dimension.

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DustFireSky    160

I think not responding to bug reports isn't a problem, IF the bugs become solved. If u ever had something like a support forum (Code writer or similar, write your own software etc.), u know how important is the fact to not ignore the users. U can do it, IF u react on the suggestions and bug reports through solving it or implement it or u discuss the change or the rejection. Sometimes u have no time to answer each person. That's normal. And for the laziest developer they could just add a read state. One click to change it. If u are the more laziest developer ever, run an SQL Command to do it. :D

The most developer/companies don't react. The worst thing u can do. It results in disappointed user.

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42 minutes ago, Mayveena said:

You can't compare a forum dedicated to basically public information like fluid dynamics to a forum dedicated to a game where only the developers fully know what the source code looks like and where they are going with it. While the ONI Biology chart person might have been very experienced with the game, there's no way he's more or even equal to the expertise of the developers, and therefore the devs are entitled to do what they wish with the author's information including not acknowledging it.

Actually you can compare them since these issues are community "human resources" related. They are generally applicable.

Also, we aren't talking about subjective gameplay mechanics, but objective data/info and bugfixes.

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M.C.    118

I'd also like to point out something relevant. Remember the old steam turbine and all the exploits that came with it? The damn thing was so dysfunctional that it basically required at least one exploit to be useful at all.

Well, QoL III fixed it with extreme prejudice via redesign.

That tells me a couple of things. First, change is happening. Perhaps not as quickly as some of us might like, but it's happening. The game has not been abandoned. Second, Klei as a company prioritizes their work as they see fit -- just like every single business in the world.

Which makes me wonder... did R9XM4 really expect Klei to change their priorities just because he submitted a lot of bug reports? Because if so, well... that's not a realistic thing to expect.

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1 minute ago, M.C. said:

I'd also like to point out something relevant. Remember the old steam turbine and all the exploits that came with it? The damn thing was so dysfunctional that it basically required at least one exploit to be useful at all.

Well, QoL III fixed it with extreme prejudice via redesign.

That tells me a couple of things. First, change is happening. Perhaps not as quickly as some of us might like, but it's happening. The game has not been abandoned. Second, Klei as a company prioritizes their work as they see fit -- just like every single business in the world.

Which makes me wonder... did R9XM4 really expect Klei to change their priorities just because he submitted a lot of bug reports? Because if so, well... that's not a realistic thing to expect.

I mostly agree. However, the notion "they prioritize their work" is misleading. First of all, through early access and using the community as beta tester they are effectively involving the community.

Second, there is this thing that community communication is a time and money robbing act. That really doesn't have to be. If Klei puts out a tender on the boards "hey guys, we are looking for someone to help us out with communication between community and devs. We can't pay you, but we appreciate the help", there are bound people to reach out. There are a lot of persons being satisfied and happy they can help out.

I do want to underline, again, that Klei does it better than most others. They actually involve the community. However, I do feel if you do that, you have to accept there is an increased requirement for communication.

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nonoxyl    191

Seems like there multiple topics being debated here.

Personally, I do not think we should be discussing @FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX motives. There seems to be a lot of conjecture going on here. 

Topic #1: Are threads communal property or are they content created by the OP?

I think the forum software answers this. The forum currently assigns ownership of a thread to the OP. That is unlikely to change. It's not like we do not have access to the cached page. If someone feels this information is important to other players, they can pick up the banner, make a new thread, and continue the charge. The forum software could definitely be improved by having a dedicated sideboard for stickied threads but we make due with what we have at hand. The community could make a consolidated thread and bump it weekly if we thought it was that important.

Topic #2: Are the devs doing a good job communicating with us forum posters? Are we justified if we feel like we are being ignored?

I doubt anyone thinks Klei should kowtow to us forum users the way several MMO developers do. I would hope they are interested in our feedback on general discussion and suggestions. But I think the real issue is in the bug reporting. 

This may seem a bit arrogant, but I feel as early release purchasers, we are not merely players. We spent money on an incomplete game. The probability that Klei will have a successful launch of ONI and make a profit from the game was increased because we gave them money ahead of launch. Many purchasers just wanted to support what appeared to be a good game. Many of us also wanted to help participate in the development process by giving feedback and reporting bugs. I feel Klei has some obligation to do us a solid and communicate their stance on bug related issues in a somewhat timely fashion.

16 hours ago, JoeW said:

The way we look at bug reports is that they are there so that we may we sift through them and fix them as appropriate based on priority and what were working on. If they are there, you know we know about them. But it's not meant to be a channel of communication. 

Maybe that could change without too much effort.

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M.C.    118
3 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

I mostly agree. However, the notion "they prioritize their work" is misleading. First of all, through early access and using the community as beta tester they are effectively involving the community.

It's not misleading, and you are mixing two different issues here.

Do we as customers have any control over which bugs Klei developers fix first? No, we do not. The sooner people get used to that notion, the better off we will be as a community.

Do Klei developers communicate with us adequately? No, they do not. They dropped the ball. Their communication style, if you can call it that, sends one clear message:

"We don't give a damn about your feedback."

That has to change. Sorry, Klei dudes, that's the truth.

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Junksteel    393
27 minutes ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

I mostly agree. However, the notion "they prioritize their work" is misleading. First of all, through early access and using the community as beta tester they are effectively involving the community.

Second, there is this thing that community communication is a time and money robbing act. That really doesn't have to be. If Klei puts out a tender on the boards "hey guys, we are looking for someone to help us out with communication between community and devs. We can't pay you, but we appreciate the help", there are bound people to reach out. There are a lot of persons being satisfied and happy they can help out.

I do want to underline, again, that Klei does it better than most others. They actually involve the community. However, I do feel if you do that, you have to accept there is an increased requirement for communication.

I rather prefer silence and mistery than PR professionals all over the place telling borderline lies to calm down the masses and repeating beautiful words in behalf of the dev team they barely know.

But I'm an old dinossaur that grew up playing games in other's devices and never dreamed about communicating with the industry that produces the toy. This thing is fairly new and I'm not sure it can be done reasonably making everyone happy.

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blash365    569
6 minutes ago, M.C. said:

"We don't give a damn about your feedback."

That has to change. Sorry, Klei dudes, that's the truth.

BS!

They literally thank the community for exactly that in every of their streams. But i guess you already made your mind up, didnt you?

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M.C.    118
2 minutes ago, blash365 said:

BS!

They literally thank the community for exactly that in every of their streams. But i guess you already made your mind up, didnt you?

I care more about their actions than I do about their words. Talk is cheap. Go to the bug forums. Take a look at how many bug reports remain unacknowledged. Their words may say "thank you", but their actions are more along the lines of "screw you".

2 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

Since I will keep my promise from the QoL3 thread, you better get ready and say your farewell because this will take a long time...

*prepares ultra-fluffy cotton swabs*

I'm going to erase you.

...I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

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blash365    569
2 minutes ago, M.C. said:

I care more about their actions than I do about their words. Talk is cheap. Go to the bug forums. Take a look at how many bug reports remain unacknowledged. Their words may say "thank you", but their actions are more along the lines of "screw you".

Well, if you care so much about their actions then maybe you should try to read their changelogs, which they have been releasing for the past months. But hey, why not just complain. It's so much more fulfilling.

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15 minutes ago, M.C. said:

It's not misleading, and you are mixing two different issues here.

Do we as customers have any control over which bugs Klei developers fix first? No, we do not. The sooner people get used to that notion, the better off we will be as a community.

Do Klei developers communicate with us adequately? No, they do not. They dropped the ball. Their communication style, if you can call it that, sends one clear message:

"We don't give a damn about your feedback."

That has to change. Sorry, Klei dudes, that's the truth.

But where did I, or anybody claimed they need to adress some issues first? Go back and read my previous posts. Just acknowledging the issue and that it will be fixed eventually is already a huge step forward!

More communication is not the same as giving in to demands, but it does mean atleast listening and acknowledging issues.

They do listen, for the record. I think most issues can be solved with a weekly "hey guys, this week we mostly had complaints about X, Y and Z. They are on the list and will eventually be fixed.". You will not solve everything with that, but that's a step forward in proper community management.

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pacovf    321

...People need to chill. Ideally, get off their keyboards for a while too.

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1 minute ago, pacovf said:

...People need to chill. Ideally, get off their keyboards for a while too.

Am I still under ideal conditions if I get off the keyboard, opened up the mobile version on my android device and pashionately discuss!

(yes, it is a joke. Please calm down.)

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Junksteel    393
1 minute ago, M.C. said:

I care more about their actions than I do about their words. Talk is cheap. Go to the bug forums. Take a look at how many bug reports remain unacknowledged. Their words may say "thank you", but their actions are more along the lines of "screw you".

Why you think that man? Not answering things doesn't necessarily carries that negative charged attitude. Just imagine a situation where the team just decide to not fix something for whatever reason.... schedule, resources, design, doesn't matter. Stating to the community that specific thing won't be fixed would generate a terrible outcry. Why one would consciously undermine their freedom of work and creation with nothing in return?  If far ahead they find out a solution to that problem, they just deliver it.

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Mr.Trueba    83
1 minute ago, pacovf said:

...People need to chill. Ideally, get off their keyboards for a while too.

Please!

This forum sometimes looks like a convention of frustrated teenagers.

People, stop. Klei is one of the video game companies that most love what they do, so stop crying for everything.
Go out forma some sunlight, talk to your friends and if you do not have, please, get some.

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0xFADE    345

Ah well. That is why you can’t get that emotionally invested in things you have no control over. 

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Gurgel    946
2 hours ago, SakuraKoi said:

Games are not for glory and as much as helping is praiseworthy, this utterly destructive behavior just tells how it would have been quite possible for one to grow arrogant indeed, if one not already was. Competence does not mean benevolence and it should be quite obvious how we judge people, when they are at their worst, and not at their best. Why should one "respect" a war hero turned serial killer? The scale here is obviously smaller but the fruit is the same and rotten, people change...

Indeed. When you help successfully somebody in this context, that merits a moment of warm, fuzzy feeling, but that is basically it. If you start to feel you are a "major contributor" or a "major helper" or an "alpha poster" in this context, you might end up feeling like superman, when in fact you are just "bicycle-repairman".

Anybody that feels the need for dramatic gestures in a gaming-forum has a problem. It may be helper syndrome (which finds its destructive pinnacle in Munchausen syndrome by proxy and an analog of that certainly exists in the software world). It can be a need to dominate and shape the discussion. It can be a desperate need to matter and be recognized (usually far above the actual level of skill of the person).

So lets not get crazy about this. One person left. He did give us a destructive parting gift, so no reason to see a wronged hero or the like here. He made it very clear he does not really care about the people here by his actions. But on the other hand, it is not that important. This is a game support forum, not a "safe space" or a place to live a significant faction of one's social life in or a place where one should get a majority of one's validation as a person.

9 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

Why you think that man? Not answering things doesn't necessarily carries that negative charged attitude. Just imagine a situation where the team just decide to not fix something for whatever reason.... schedule, resources, design, doesn't matter. Stating to the community that specific thing won't be fixed would generate a terrible outcry. Why one would consciously undermine their freedom of work and creation with nothing in return?  If far ahead they find out a solution to that problem, they just deliver it.

From my personal observations, Klei reads them all and pretty fast. They just have a hands-off approach and most bug reports are minor things or not even bugs. They just let them sit there, which is the perfect approach. But they have also patched obviously critical things within hours. Triage is critical and they are doing it expertly. And they realized that some not-so critical things have been on the back-burner for too long, or we would not have gotten three (!) QoL updates.

6 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Ah well. That is why you can’t get that emotionally invested in things you have no control over. 

Excellent advice. Few people know how to follow it though. "I have been WRONGED because the TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, developers are not thanking me on their knees for my great bug reports!" is an example of that.

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goboking    1,301
36 minutes ago, M.C. said:

Their words may say "thank you", but their actions are more along the lines of "screw you".

I'm going to refute this.  I've seen Klei make several changes based on our feedback.  Hell, I've seen them make changes based on my feedback, so I know they're listening and I know "thank you" isn't just an empty platitude.

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nonoxyl    191
21 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

They just let them sit there, which is the perfect approach.

I really do not agree. This is an early access game. Essentially, it is a open beta (alpha really if you got in early) that we had to PAY to participate. Granted, we got a good price and will get to keep playing the game after release. But the company got a huge bump in available funds to continue development. That is not nothing. Is it not at least reasonable to expect a bit of feedback on bug reports considering we have paid money and taken time to submit them?

 

26 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Excellent advice. Few people know how to follow it though. "I have been WRONGED because the TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, developers are not thanking me on their knees for my great bug reports!" is an example of that.

Jokes aside, I would ask, wouldn't the discussion here be more "on target" and the bug reports more accurate if we had a general idea from Klei on what kinds of game behavior are intended?

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Junksteel    393
6 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

Is it not at least reasonable to expect a bit of feedback on bug reports considering we have paid money and taken time to submit them?

Which game studio do that kind of thing in an authentic way?

I get your point, but.. as desirable as it can be I never saw it happening for real in any early access I participated.... so, not that reasonable to be expected. At least I never had a reason to expect that lol

 

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nonoxyl    191
3 minutes ago, Junksteel said:

so, not that reasonable to be expected.

Ok, expected was not the best word. I don't "expect" anything from a for-profit company except they seek profits. 

How about, are we not JUSTIFIED in wanting and asking for said feedback?

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Gurgel    946
1 hour ago, nonoxyl said:

Jokes aside, I would ask, wouldn't the discussion here be more "on target" and the bug reports more accurate if we had a general idea from Klei on what kinds of game behavior are intended?

I don't think that would be a good idea. First, they may not actually know in some areas. And second, they probably get better feedback if they just toss the stuff out there and see what people make of it. Also, expect endless discussions of whether they are wanting the right thing...

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WanderingKid    438
6 hours ago, Junksteel said:

As far as communication goes, I'd like to know what would be the parameter for a hypothetical better job in that regard. Which game studio develop amazing games while do a great job handling communication to a big pool of players? I am trying to think of a single one and none comes to my mind.

 

4 hours ago, goboking said:

What you're asking for is developer feedback.  The reality is the developers are busy working on the game (especially now that they're in the crunch for final release), and that setting aside time to respond to our feedback on a regular basis would only slow the development of the game. 

To name a few game developers I've seen with more robust forum communications, Toady's State of the Fortress Addresses, KSP's original group of developers, Arcen games AIWar and AIWar 2 (among other games), and a few of the triple AAA games I'm participated in. I will agree the AAA guys are seriously hit or miss.

In regards to bug fix acknowledgements, there is a way to adjust this.  You include a few additional statuses.  Things like "More information required." "Pending - Low Priority" "Won't fix, too much work, enjoy your bug"... okay the last one is humor but you get the idea.  Simple statuses like this know if we should stop beating the drum or if there just isn't enough information.  It would also help consolidate the mess that IS the bug forum right now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Developer Feedback could be handled without diving in hands first into the muck.  A pinned FAQ that acknowledges the developers are aware of core issues in the simulation and other concerns and is maintained would be an excellent first step.  An example of old:

Borg Cube:

We know it's there, we know the bugs.  The engine is deep and we're realigning it eventually, but it's not an immediate priority.  Enjoy it for now, but know we'll fix it eventually.

or perhaps a different one in a new vein (Please note these answers are MY answers, not Klei's):

Fixed Temperature of the Sieve and other buildings:

Due to the way the simulator works, we wanted the sieve and other buildings to be useful as players progressed.  We're aware of the concerns with using it for abuse for cooling systems, but the other methods of heat deletion would also need to be addressed and we are not going change it in the immediate future.  Expect to continue to use it in your builds as is, except for the Steam Turbine, which we'll address next.

----------------------------------------------------------

Finally, the streams are not useful either.  It's a direct place to be able to chat with the developers, but unfortunately their hands are tied.  I'm not talking about things like "No, we're not going to tell you what we're releasing in 1.0 in a month.".  That's expected.  It's other things, long standing issues or recent concerns of the enthusiastic playerbase that actually came to login to see what's new and have a conversation...

… and we end up watching Base vs. Base combat and rarely getting an answer.  I've given up on watching the streams at this point, honestly.

 

All of these things are ways the developers could stay aloft from the mighty murkiness of the forums and not trying to answer every post ever created.  Our enthusiasm and hopes for the final product want it to succeed and we're trying our best to help them.  If they could let us know where we're ACTUALLY helping, and what's just under the radar for now while they get things figured and fixed, that would be a tremendous advancement for my, and I assume others', feelings of feeling like we're shouting into a maelstrom and just wasting our breath.

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nonoxyl    191
38 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

I don't think that would be a good idea. First, they may not actually know in some areas. And second, they probably get better feedback if they just toss the stuff out there and see what people make of it. Also, expect endless discussions of whether they are wanting the right thing...

I'll leave it alone after this. I know this can be a touchy subject and I am not looking to offend.

Say, for example, one of the many threads about fixed temp output buildings gets hot. I would give a big thank you if a red name chimed in with a quick post like "Fixed temperature output buildings are a core mechanic of our game and many aspects of gameplay are developed with this in mind." Bam! end of debate and we can move on. Alternatively, they could say "We appreciate the discussion generated on this topic. please continue." We would know the topic was of interest to the developers and give it due consideration. Neither statement costs them anything but a moment of time if they are reading the forums anyway. There is already endless discussions of whether they are wanting the right thing. Gamers are gamers after all.

To be explicit, I do not feel entitled to a response from the devs about anything. They will run their forums as they see fit and I am a guest here. That doesn't mean a response is not desirable or would not be appreciated.

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