How do you deal with large amount of gases

[paoweeotter]

On 1/10/2019 at 9:37 AM, bleeter6 said:

The over pressure chamber for gases is based on tile mechanics so it's unlikely to be changed.

This is regarding door pumps right? What is everyones stance on it? Is it a shameful bug/exploit that shouldnt be relied upon?

[Glassyfo]

1 hour ago, paoweeotter said:

This is regarding door pumps right? What is everyones stance on it? Is it a shameful bug/exploit that shouldnt be relied upon?

No. It's based on a small amount of liquid preventing the gas vents from detecting overpressure.

[DemainaNyx]

3 hours ago, paoweeotter said:

This is regarding door pumps right? What is everyones stance on it? Is it a shameful bug/exploit that shouldnt be relied upon?

It depends on how you do it.  You can over pressure things multiple ways. 

 

If you leave a layer of liquid over a vent, the vent will never go over pressure so it will continue to empty forever even though it shouldn't.  This works with electrolyzers too, so you can keep them running constantly without them over-pressurizing.

 

Another way is to use a wheezewort to act as a pump to over pressurize for you.  A vent near a wheezewort will go over pressure for a second, then the wheezewort breaths in, and the vent sees free space and exhausts more.

 

Alternative you can use doors to compress liquids and gases achieve the same thing.  The smaller room fills until over pressure, you suddenly open a vacuum and suck some of it into a middle area, open the high pressure room and then force the new gas there and repeat.

 

You can also just take advantage of the current in game physics to beat the system.  I dug down like below, dripped some water into it to create a water lock, and then dug up and out the other side.  Yet, funnily enough, there is a vacuum.  It's because gas and liquids don't share the same tile, so that tiny amount of water to the left of the hole is preventing gas from filling this spot, and when I dug out the rock on the right, the water dropped down and it left a vacuum.

 

Should the game work this way, probably not.  But the thing is they'd have to do more work to account for little things like the image above where I just dug a hole and accidentally made a vacuum.  Instead, they decided that liquids and gases don't share tiles, thus leading to images like above and why liquid over a vent stops it from over pressurizing.  Doors used to delete gases, so instead they made is to that when doors shut, they pushed the gas to the sides, displacing it instead of destroying it.  That's why despite there being thousands of grams of gas on the right of that door, it still tries to push it out of the way instead of just deleting it or not functioning at all.  If they changed those parts of the game, who knows what we'd find next that would break the system they put in place.

[fishoutofwater]

10 minutes ago, DemainaNyx said:

You can also just take advantage of the current in game physics to beat the system.  I dug down like below, dripped some water into it to create a water lock, and then dug up and out the other side.  Yet, funnily enough, there is a vacuum.  It's because gas and liquids don't share the same tile, so that tiny amount of water to the left of the hole is preventing gas from filling this spot, and when I dug out the rock on the right, the water dropped down and it left a vacuum.

I use that to insulate a room so my dupicants can still enter it.

[fredhp]

I never have "too much gas" problem, except in early game. Too much CO2/Chlorine? Dig Deeper. Too much Hydrogen? Dig the ceiling.

By the time this strategy begins to fail (too much gas), there is already ways to turn gases into something useful. CO2 to Oil, Hydrogen to power/rockets, etc... 

The only gas i think is useless is Chlorine - Once the kitchen and automated food storage is filled with it, there is no more viable uses for it, so, if the map has a chlorine geyser, i just "close" the geyser and dump the excess chrorine to space. It the map does not have one and the kitchen is already overpressurized, i store somewhere (i dump it in the oil biome).

[Miravlix]

On 10/1/2019 at 5:56 PM, beowulf2010 said:

Personally, I either just ignore them once my base is sealed up or store them in a gas overpressure chamber. Yeah, it's an exoloit but I never seem to get around to liquifying gas for storage purposes. 

There is door compressors and using the liquid with gas vents and gas with liquid vents to create unlimited pressure. Both seems to be very easily fixed problem, but it seems instead that both mechanics is *intended*

 

Since this isn't version 1.00 of the game, talking about exploits is silly, because there will be many changes to the game that may make current solution irrelevant, just because we can no longer build with absylite, DOES NOT MEAN it was an EXPLOIT that we did use it.

[ONIfreak]

51 minutes ago, Miravlix said:

There is door compressors and using the liquid with gas vents and gas with liquid vents to create unlimited pressure. Both seems to be very easily fixed problem, but it seems instead that both mechanics is *intended*

 

Since this isn't version 1.00 of the game, talking about exploits is silly, because there will be many changes to the game that may make current solution irrelevant, just because we can no longer build with absylite, DOES NOT MEAN it was an EXPLOIT that we did use it.

Yes, however using word 'exploit' for any feature or behave that take game out of balance in my humble opinion is right. Also the topic was to share ideas exploity or not how are gases handled by dicferent people so however will come here might find something interesting. I definitly find a lot of interesting approaches which allowed me to re-think handling of some gases for which i'm grateful

And about abyss. Yes it was an exploit as it made insulatet tiles pipes unused - and that was not intended i bet. So Klei changed it to be harder to get perfect insulation very early in game and have to deal with heat and manage it as it was intended. Now for abyss tiles - good replacement are vacuum tiles aroubd your base. I bet this will be changed as well

[biopon]

2 minutes ago, ONIfreak said:

using word 'exploit' for any feature or behave that take game out of balance in my humble opinion is right.

I think that's only right when used to describe a confirmed bug or design mistake. Not a mechanic that's been confirmed to work as intended.

Either way, both door compressors and liquid-over-vent tricks are cheesy AF. Do I use them? The latter for sure, rather extensively, because I find the alternatives even less appealing. But to each his own, this is a single player game and you play by the rules you want to play by. But don't think playing with a different set of rules makes you morally superior or inferior to others.

[ONIfreak]

49 minutes ago, biopon said:

I think that's only right when used to describe a confirmed bug or design mistake. Not a mechanic that's been confirmed to work as intended.

Either way, both door compressors and liquid-over-vent tricks are cheesy AF. Do I use them? The latter for sure, rather extensively, because I find the alternatives even less appealing. But to each his own, this is a single player game and you play by the rules you want to play by. But don't think playing with a different set of rules makes you morally superior or inferior to others.

I try to find alternatives cause i personally feel like cheating using those exploits. XD. But if it had been said that it was intended the ok it is feature not exploit - sorry for this.

[ishakaru]

4 hours ago, ONIfreak said:

Yes, however using word 'exploit' for any feature or behave that take game out of balance in my humble opinion is right.

I prefer to define exploit as something that utilizes objects in such a way that it works when it shouldn't. Here that would be the opposing element type over a vent(liquid on gas, gas on liquid). It tricks/fools the vent by making it think it's obeying the rules set out. There isn't another way to describe what's happening with out lying.  Turbine setups that use a superheat gas other than steam for one tile and steam in another would fall squarely in this category.

 

I would not define door pumps as an exploit, but as out of balance mechanics. While it seems to defy the intent of the developers, all pieces are working as intended. Turbines with 1 or more ports blocked fall into this category as well since they still produce at full power. But do so when all other requirements are met.

 

The former I expect to be eliminated as soon as they can. The latter I hope will be balanced in some way. 

[beowulf2010]

6 hours ago, ishakaru said:

I would not define door pumps as an exploit, but as out of balance mechanics. While it seems to defy the intent of the developers, all pieces are working as intended.

Door pumps, I agree are just fine with a bit of bakancing.

Door compressors? That's an exploit just like the vent over pressure trick I love to use. 

The only reason I go out of my way to identify things as exploits is so that people unfamiliar with the ideas will know and can make their own decisions based on their playstyle. 

I started playing at the height of the Borg Cube/drip cooling bug so feel it's best to identify, but not judge, exploit use whenever possible. 

[ishakaru]

10 hours ago, beowulf2010 said:

Door pumps, I agree are just fine with a bit of balancing.

Door compressors? That's an exploit just like the vent over pressure trick I love to use.

The only difference I can think between the two is the magnitude of the end point. They both move gas from low pressure to high pressure. 

 

Maybe you are talking about something I'm not thinking about?

[Glassyfo]

12 minutes ago, ishakaru said:

The only difference I can think between the two is the magnitude of the end point. They both move gas from low pressure to high pressure. 

 

Maybe you are talking about something I'm not thinking about?

The magnitude of the endpoint is also the difference between a regular high pressure vent and the element-over-vent trick. The magnitude of the endpoint is the whole reason why it can be seen as an exploit.

[Yunru]

Canister Filler is the least exploity way of infinite storage.

[ishakaru]

Just now, bleeter6 said:

[snip]

I don't agree with this view:  You build a system with the liquid on low pressure vent in a vacuum. Not an exploit. You dump 1kg/tile gas into said room. Not an exploit. You raise it to 1.999kg/tile... still not an exploit. 2.001kg? exploit. Never mind the fact that the vent has been ignoring what the pressure has been the entire time.

 

Doors on the other hand do not check pressure. You don't have to circumvent a designed limitation of the object to achieve an effect.

 

In short: I draw the line between "exploit" and "needs balance" based on how you got there. Not where you get to.

[ONIfreak]

5 minutes ago, ishakaru said:

I don't agree with this view:  You build a system with the liquid on low pressure vent in a vacuum. Not an exploit. You dump 1kg/tile gas into said room. Not an exploit. You raise it to 1.999kg/tile... still not an exploit. 2.001kg? exploit. Never mind the fact that the vent has been ignoring what the pressure has been the entire time.

 

Doors on the other hand do not check pressure. You don't have to circumvent a designed limitation of the object to achieve an effect.

 

In short: I draw the line between "exploit" and "needs balance" based on how you got there. Not where you get to.

Vent and high pressure vent are design to make additional requirement for peple to approach gases. Space requirements. Orherwise you would make sustain base - lock it -send diggers to dig everything without breaking to vacuum/space. Set pump to pump all gases to one small room. Set pump with filters if you need any gas. Job done. All asteroid is for you 

[ishakaru]

Just now, ONIfreak said:

[snip]

 

In short: I draw the line between "exploit" and "needs balance" based on how you got there. Not where you get to. 

 

Just so I understand where you draw the line: if I was to freeze O2 so that it dropped into debris on the floor, thereby making an infinite storage for it... is that an exploit as well?

[ONIfreak]

14 minutes ago, ishakaru said:

 

In short: I draw the line between "exploit" and "needs balance" based on how you got there. Not where you get to. 

 

Just so I understand where you draw the line: if I was to freeze O2 so that it dropped into debris on the floor, thereby making an infinite storage for it... is that an exploit as well?

Do you mind if we start to call those things not exploits but "tricks" or "tactics" or "bubbles" (it would sound funny "guys i found new bubble and it is amazing"). I never intended to argue about wording.in my opinion this behaviour just make game easier ( i use it as well beacuse is there but i would like if this could be changed).

And in regards of freezing and debris on the floor - yes this trick is also quite unusual but freezing O2 is not that easy and not reachable in early parts of the game unless not without effort - and about this effort we are talking about. This game is about founding solutions and organising your base so , again in my opinion, it would be much more rewarding if this kind of "tricks" would be limit to minimum. Of course game would be harder as well which i personally don't mind. 

[Miravlix]

The game has an issue that large storage fixes.

 

The optimal base uses 100% of a resource, only limited burst and/or processing storage needed. (Power, Gas, Liquid, Materials is all included in this)

 

So I build a 20x20 tank setup, took countless cycles just to build it and after a while I not sit with 20x20 tank empty, because I'm using the resource in an optimal manner and storage is pointless.

 

I don't build battery farms or storage farms, it's simply put stupid waste of time, because in the end you can only use what is created as renewable pr. cycle, so the only point of any type of storage is to be empty.

 

If the map gives you 10 units of water/gas/slime, there is little point in using 20 units, because you will simply run out and now have a broken base that is 10 units short.

 

We still have very limited burst issues, we very rarely have to balance burst over many cycles, most power burst is balanced within a single cycle, exception is perhaps things like rocket usage of fuel and unloading where you have to be ready every X cycle.

[Lawnmower Man]

1 hour ago, Miravlix said:

[...]

We still have very limited burst issues, we very rarely have to balance burst over many cycles, most power burst is balanced within a single cycle, exception is perhaps things like rocket usage of fuel and unloading where you have to be ready every X cycle.

I have lots of geysers that are idle for dozens of cycles at a time.  Sometimes 50 cycles at a time.  You don't store anything for these, or you don't need geysers?

[ONIfreak]

16 hours ago, Miravlix said:

The game has an issue that large storage fixes.

 

The optimal base uses 100% of a resource, only limited burst and/or processing storage needed. (Power, Gas, Liquid, Materials is all included in this)

 

So I build a 20x20 tank setup, took countless cycles just to build it and after a while I not sit with 20x20 tank empty, because I'm using the resource in an optimal manner and storage is pointless.

 

I don't build battery farms or storage farms, it's simply put stupid waste of time, because in the end you can only use what is created as renewable pr. cycle, so the only point of any type of storage is to be empty.

 

If the map gives you 10 units of water/gas/slime, there is little point in using 20 units, because you will simply run out and now have a broken base that is 10 units short.

 

We still have very limited burst issues, we very rarely have to balance burst over many cycles, most power burst is balanced within a single cycle, exception is perhaps things like rocket usage of fuel and unloading where you have to be ready every X cycle.

I would love that. Due to lack of careness at the beginning i now have pool below my base 25 tile high and half map wide filled with water and polluted water and i have no idea what to do with it. By mistake (big mistake) i put some tamed pacu in there so now have also around 200 pacu in there ( which is fine until i want to load a game). I will not be building steam power as other ways to utilize that water are just not fast enough. Btw due to pressure without any exploits you can store 1.5k kg PW on one tile. You just have to have a lot of it .

 

Ah and a fun part. Right below this pool is gold volcano which is surrounded by water ( i made vacuum and use different materials for multiple layers) - this is very amusing time bomb especialy when i need to get some gold. ( btw if mat temp bothers you store it under cold water or pw - after 2 cycles my gold drop from 200 degree to 15 degree without heating water - which i think is a bug)

[Smithe37]

 p
Here's a really easy solution

 

 

[The Plum Gate]

1 hour ago, Smithe37 said:

Here's a really easy solution

The idea that the walls and floor aren't seeing the pressure seems a bit odd to me - given a environment where the doors and vents can be utilized to "over pressurize" some area - i'm surprised that tiles don't break like they do with large columns of water, etc.

[Sasza22]

4 hours ago, The Plum Gate said:

i'm surprised that tiles don't break like they do with large columns of water, etc

I think it`s based on the mass as pressure doesn`t exist in the game. I imagine you`d have to pump 1100kg of gas per tile to break tiles.

[Lawnmower Man]

4 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

I think it`s based on the mass as pressure doesn`t exist in the game. I imagine you`d have to pump 1100kg of gas per tile to break tiles.

That's only 1.1t, which is just over the density of water, which has never broken tiles in my games.  But @Smithe37 is showing ELEVEN TONS of O2 in a single tile.  If pressure would break tiles, I'd think 11 t/m^2 would do it. The only way I've gotten 11t of anything in a tile is with debris.  But then, I'm not big on the liquid vent exploit.