Klei Should Have a Character Update

[TheKingofSquirrels]

3 minutes ago, Cellby said:

CHARACTER REBALANCE > SKINS

[Sinister_Fang]

4 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

like Maxwell's Duelists not being worth making at all

Lies! They make great backup dancers when you're using the perma-insanity trick. But... their uhhhh... intended purpose... is lacking...... a lot... *Cough*

[Queron81]

My ideas for Wilson:

- Should be able to craft everything from the Science tab from the beginning
- Should start with two gears and two electrical doodads
- Should be able to update buildings like ice boxes (hold up more items) and ice flingos (bigger range or less fuel consumption), using a bigger amount of gold and cut stone
- Maybe an own tab with more machines, that only he can uses (like Wickerbottom with her books). Every machine should require gears.

Why? Because he is a scientist.

[. . .]

39 minutes ago, Queron81 said:

Why? Because he is a scientist.

Wilson's as much a scientist as fool's gold is gold, Wickerbottom is the real scientist lol

[GuyNamedChris]

9 hours ago, Queron81 said:

Why? Because he is a scientist.

I think Wilson's entire premise is supposed to be failed scientist. I mean, even in the Forbidden Knowledge trailer we see him failing to mix some chemicals together and the entire thing just blowing up in his face. v( '-' )v

[Mario384]

Personally, I wouldn't touch Wilson, but I would:

- Give Duelists 40% damage resistance

- Give Willow full fire immunity again, but still let her overheat

- Let Beaver heal on eating, buff the damage some, and reduce the sanity drain to that of about a negative Tam O' Shanter (basically opposite of Maxwell's positive drain)

- Give *something* to Winona, literally anything would help at all.

This would make 4 characters actually a little more prosperous, though Maxwell doesn't need it as much, it'd let the Duelists actually serve a purpose.

[Toros]

You can really tell whether someone understands the current state of character balance based on how good they believe Wilson to be.

If you think he’s not just slightly better than Wes and less powerful than the other characters mechanically you are mistaken.

I’ve done about a 2000 word analysis of Wilson’s perks and his beard hair production is utterly pitiful (10 max beard hair by the end of winter, which is 4 hours and 40 minutes into the world) and beard hair is only used for effigies (made obselete by amulets or even allies nearby with telltale hearts) and bernie (only relevant with willow, and multiple have diminishing returns).

[Mario384]

4 minutes ago, Toros said:

You can really tell whether someone understands the current state of character balance based on how good they believe Wilson to be.

If you think he’s not just slightly better than Wes and less powerful than the other characters mechanically you are mistaken.

I’ve done about a 2000 word analysis of Wilson’s perks and his beard hair production is utterly pitiful (10 max beard hair by the end of winter, which is 4 hours and 40 minutes into the world) and beard hair is only used for effigies (made obselete by amulets or even allies nearby with telltale hearts) and bernie (only relevant with willow, and multiple have diminishing returns).

At this point though, I consider Wilson's status to be much like Wes's, where his weakness is something that sort of defines him.  I'm not sure if they should improve him or not because of that.  If anything, I'd give him more use to the beard stuff and improve the beard economy with higher returns.

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, Mario384 said:

- Give Duelists 40% damage resistance

That's a start. Personally I'd tweak the AI just a bit. I'd make it so that duelists don't agro on anything that attacks Maxwell first. They would only engage in combat when Maxwell hits something first. This way if you're trying to ignore some enemies they won't go and cause problems for you (such as hitting a spider close to a nest and getting a group of warrior spiders to chase you). Another change I would make would be to have duelists lose agro if Maxwell dosen't attack anything within 1-2 seconds. This way the player would need to actually engage in combat instead of relying on them exclusively. And lastly, when duelists attack, they don't draw agro. This means they're extra dps, not a wall/distraction like Abigail is. It also helps with kiting. Kiting can sometimes get tricky when you lose agro and they focus on something else.

[Toros]

1 hour ago, Mario384 said:

At this point though, I consider Wilson's status to be much like Wes's, where his weakness is something that sort of defines him.  I'm not sure if they should improve him or not because of that.  If anything, I'd give him more use to the beard stuff and improve the beard economy with higher returns.

You mean something like this?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1169329065

[ShadowDuelist]

45 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

That's a start. Personally I'd tweak the AI just a bit. I'd make it so that duelists don't agro on anything that attacks Maxwell first. They would only engage in combat when Maxwell hits something first. This way if you're trying to ignore some enemies they won't go and cause problems for you (such as hitting a spider close to a nest and getting a group of warrior spiders to chase you). Another change I would make would be to have duelists lose agro if Maxwell dosen't attack anything within 1-2 seconds. This way the player would need to actually engage in combat instead of relying on them exclusively. And lastly, when duelists attack, they don't draw agro. This means they're extra dps, not a wall/distraction like Abigail is. It also helps with kiting. Kiting can sometimes get tricky when you lose agro and they focus on something else.

THIS
If you ladies and mentlegen were Maxwell mains you'd all be raining likes on this. Just sayin.

[GuyNamedChris]

43 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

That's a start. Personally I'd tweak the AI just a bit. I'd make it so that duelists don't agro on anything that attacks Maxwell first. They would only engage in combat when Maxwell hits something first. This way if you're trying to ignore some enemies they won't go and cause problems for you (such as hitting a spider close to a nest and getting a group of warrior spiders to chase you). Another change I would make would be to have duelists lose agro if Maxwell dosen't attack anything within 1-2 seconds. This way the player would need to actually engage in combat instead of relying on them exclusively. And lastly, when duelists attack, they don't draw agro. This means they're extra dps, not a wall/distraction like Abigail is. It also helps with kiting. Kiting can sometimes get tricky when you lose agro and they focus on something else.

It'd also be nice if they could attack nightmare creatures. I mean I get why Abigail and other followers can't, but these are shadow puppets we're talking about, they should be able to slice through other nightmares.

[ShadowDuelist]

29 minutes ago, Chris1488 said:

It'd also be nice if they could attack nightmare creatures. I mean I get why Abigail and other followers can't, but these are shadow puppets we're talking about, they should be able to slice through other nightmares.

To compensate such a buff they should be attacked by shadows if maxwell's insane. It would certainly make using the duelists to stay insane-locked harder, even if they are buffed as @Sinister_Fang said. If they are not gonna draw aggro from physical enemies, I guess it's fair they do from shadow creatures.
Also I think they need some form of armor just like @Mario384 mentioned , otherwise even if they do not take aggro from enemies, AOE splash damage will insta-kill them just as it does now. For PVP purposes perhaps other player can bypass that armor if they attack the duelists.
I don't think anyone would mind paying more for the duelists (lets say increasing the basic cost of them to 3 fuel instead of 2) if you know they are going to be worth the investment with all the awesome features mentioned on this thread, and it would help to distinguish them even further from the basic working puppets.

[Sinister_Fang]

23 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I don't think anyone would mind paying more for the duelists (lets say increasing the basic cost of them to 3 fuel instead of 2) if you know they are going to be worth the investment

Actually, an increase in cost might not even be necessary if shadows agro on them. This means that having one duelist is fairly safe, but 2 puts you close to insanity and thus puts them (and you) at risk. I think having them agro on the puppets is a great idea. It adds more depth to Maxwell's sanity management. Do you want to spend more sanity for a 2nd duelist, or go with one duelist and spend the extra sanity on a dark sword? Or do you just want to go all out and use 2 duelists and a dark sword? You could end up losing them that way then have to deal with the shadows AND whatever it was you were fighting to begin with.

[GMDApple]

Actually for Maxwell I really liked the shadow duelist giving off extra dps when you focused on an enemy in the forge. What if instead crafting the Shadow Duelist thing by the codex umbra only gives a buff that can create fhese duelist giving extra dps?

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, GMDApple said:

Actually for Maxwell I really liked the shadow duelist giving off extra dps when you focused on an enemy in the forge. What if instead crafting the Shadow Duelist thing by the codex umbra only gives a buff that can create fhese duelist giving extra dps?

It was a fun perk in the forge, but I think it would be a bit awkward if the duelists worked so differently from the other puppets in the base game.

But if this was added in, it couldn't just come for free. I think it would be too op if it was. It would need some kind of cost like sanity or something. But then that could get annoying if you didn't want the duelists to activate and waste your sanity. So there would need to be some way to activate it on demand, or a way to toggle the passive perk. Like I said, it would be kinda awkward to implement it into the base game in a way that it feels right. I think improving upon what we already have works better then replacing it entirely.

[Ressayez]

I think Wilson should be able to read.

[minespatch]

11 minutes ago, Ressayez said:

I think Wilson should be able to read.

That's Wickerbottom's job to teach him.

[HamBatter]

2 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

It was a fun perk in the forge, but I think it would be a bit awkward if the duelists worked so differently from the other puppets in the base game.

But if this was added in, it couldn't just come for free. I think it would be too op if it was. It would need some kind of cost like sanity or something. But then that could get annoying if you didn't want the duelists to activate and waste your sanity. So there would need to be some way to activate it on demand, or a way to toggle the passive perk. Like I said, it would be kinda awkward to implement it into the base game in a way that it feels right. I think improving upon what we already have works better then replacing it entirely.

Add a ranged Shadow Duelist II that attacks after every x hits, including hits that your Shadow Duelists do or otherwise reducing hits needed to proc while Shadow Duelists are active.

[Toros]

For you Maxwell mains if you haven’t already you should check out the Rezecib’s rebalance version.  It adds extra shadows and lets you freely swap out their tools, and improves their AI (and lets you give them armor hats).

It’s a really nice change for Max imo.

[Sinister_Fang]

4 hours ago, Toros said:

For you Maxwell mains if you haven’t already you should check out the Rezecib’s rebalance version.  It adds extra shadows and lets you freely swap out their tools, and improves their AI (and lets you give them armor hats).

It’s a really nice change for Max imo.

It is really nice, but it also changes a lot more then just the shadows. Now if there was a standalone version with just the puppet improvements, I'd have that on every world I make. I love using those shadow porters so much.

[Toros]

21 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

It is really nice, but it also changes a lot more then just the shadows. Now if there was a standalone version with just the puppet improvements, I'd have that on every world I make. I love using those shadow porters so much.

I believe everything can be turned on or off a la carte via the configuration menu so you could just have Max’s changes.  It might not have been originally but it does now.

[CarlZalph]

On 12/29/2017 at 2:33 PM, ShadowDuelist said:

If you ladies and mentlegen were Maxwell mains you'd all be raining likes on this. Just sayin.

I main Waxwell, and the spider situation can be avoided by dancing before drawing aggro of the spiders, and then when the spiders target you the shadows don't have enough time to see you have a target and will run away first when you start moving.  This gives you enough time to run away and get out of the nest minion spawning radius.

As for losing aggro on the shadows it'd be situational, but I find them being useful to maintain aggro as a lot of 'mob' type monsters split up when they distance themselves up giving an advantage by splitting to conquer.

And lastly with having them unable to draw aggro I'm indifferent.  Half the time I find it useful on higher damaging single targets and half the time I find it's what causes them to be oneshot by giants.  I'm not perfect in timing and sometimes it'll be down to either me or the shadow being hit and I let the shadow take it every time.

 

 

 

To the OP, I feel that some characters underperform and/or feel less fun to play than others.

Perhaps if Klei did a poll as to which characters felt the "most fun" to play as they could derive as to what the playerbase as a whole feels should be worked on to make more fun.

Maybe even as a main-menu vote thing (that doesn't count friends and family accounts) with some spools as an incentive.

[Mr Pig]

I just want to see 2 things, 2 things and I can die happily.

1. Wickerbottom needs a sanity number > or equal to the amount of sanity a book costs to use in order to use it. I mean cmon we all know wicker needs a nerf but half of us would rather keep her OP. If she's gonna read into oblivion I think she's gonna get a headache that she should be relieving via cooked cactus or cooked greencaps before she faints out of exhaustion and migraines.

2. (be prepared to look at the following and scoff but please hear me out here as someone who has spent hours upon hours playing this character I think my opinion is worth at least a tiny bit here) Woodie's werebeaver form doesn't need a buff. There I said it. I think it could use some coloring editing and sound editing in terms of insanity filters (tho after 400+ hours you get used to it surprisingly). Klei calls Woodie's werebeaver form a curse and a terrible secret. If Woodie is to be buffed center it around his human form rather than his beaver form. His character as a whole should be valued and centered around who he is as a person. I mean Wolfgang is a strongman. So his abilities should be centered around his strength. If Woodie is a lumberjack center it around his chopping skills and not the curse that he intends to hide and leaves him vulnerable. If you want to make Woodie a good character try buffing him in the places that make him have a character to begin with. 

[GMDApple]

IMO We don't really need just a character buff. We need a whole bunch of them. Especially to some of the weapons (mainly magic weapons)

Blowdarts while powerful, are too costly to be considered reliable.

I don't see a situation at ALL where I would use a fire staff. Fire in general is really dangerous if you can't take care of it, and not much use later on.  Also the staff burns your loot on a kill. The ice staff can be used against dragonfly, but that's about it. (You could always use it against a boss if you're unprepared but if you're not prepared it's your fault anyway). In crowd situations you'll be too overwhelmed to be able to even use it. Both the fire and Ice staff aren't that expensive, but they aren't useful/efficient either. Both staves need a buff both in combat and utility.

Melee combat should still be the best for DPS but range should have some use as well.