Fix heat deletion exploits

[Express]

As a new player who has appreciated and respected the temperature simulation (it’s beaten me up quite a lot), these methods in deleting heat seem like bugs or oversights so I was wondering if they are working as intended or will be fixed down the line.

Being unable to convert nearly boiling water into manageable temperatures instantly would add greater challenges!

But seriously, the primary reason in fixing these is to remain consistent with the overall simulation and game design.

[ArunPrasath]

The devs have not changed these for so long is that we don't have a viable way of handling heat in the game.

You'll have a lot of heat generated to remove germs from polluted water. All those heat has to go somewhere.

That somewhere doesn't exist now in the game. When its implemented, the devs will remove all the heat deletion exploits in the game.

[Express]

5 hours ago, ArunPrasath said:

The devs have not changed these for so long is that we don't have a viable way of handling heat in the game.

You'll have a lot of heat generated to remove germs from polluted water. All those heat has to go somewhere.

That somewhere doesn't exist now in the game. When its implemented, the devs will remove all the heat deletion exploits in the game.

Are you saying the wheezeworts and the AETN are not sufficient methods in removing heat for a full playthrough? I haven't gotten far into the game but these methods have been enough for my short base thus far. I haven't used any heat deleting exploits yet and its worked out. Of course, maybe I'm still very early into the game.

[fredhp]

21 minutes ago, Express said:

Are you saying the wheezeworts and the AETN are not sufficient methods in removing heat for a full playthrough? I haven't gotten far into the game but these methods have been enough for my short base thus far. I haven't used any heat deleting exploits yet and its worked out. Of course, maybe I'm still very early into the game.

AETN and wheezeworts are not sufficient. 
They are very helpful, but one aquaturner with any coolant will surpass any AETN cooling capabilities, as long you can drop the aquaturner heat somewhere. 

There are lots of buildings here in the forum that do heat destruction. It can be as simple (and wasteful) as using aguaturner to turn water to steam and venting it to space, or complex as some of the buildings this topic ( https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/98732-the-steam-turbine-everything-you-need-to-know/ ) has.

[Neotuck]

steam turbines seems to be the best way of removing excess heat once you get advanced materials from space industry 

[yoakenashi]

My 1 cent (my opinion isn’t worth 2 cents) is that it would be possible to build a colony without fixed output buildings, specifically the sieve, but I’m an experienced player. Would it be easy for most new players? ~ probably not. It’s interesting @Express has a different opinion, thanks for sharing it!

I think this comes down to two questions:

1) would the game be too difficult without the fixed output / heat elimination exploits?

2) is the fixed output too confusing for new players?

Realism was never a question for me: creatures eating rocks, creatures growing plastic scales, and players growing wriggling plants?!

[D.L.S.]

2 hours ago, yoakenashi said:

My 1 cent (my opinion isn’t worth 2 cents) is that it would be possible to build a colony without fixed output buildings, specifically the sieve, but I’m an experienced player. Would it be easy for most new players? ~ probably not.

You joking? First of all, for new player water sieve will create heat: fixed output at +40C while your ambient temperature +25C - it will slowly heat your base... it creating heat without any warning in description - this confusing for new players. And then they will find out that it outputs at constant temperature, and will figured how to exploit it to kill heat.

This exploit must be fixed, stop defending it already.

[cpy]

It's a game physics, not real physics. We don't have thermal radiation so take a break from realism. Neutronium that have 0 thermal conductivity? Man wish we had this IRL.

[yoakenashi]

20 hours ago, D.L.S. said:

You joking?

...

- this confusing for new players.

This exploit must be fixed, stop defending it already.

No, I’m not joking. As you pointed out, I was referring to using the sieve to reduce temperatures, not to increase them.

I’m not defending it, I just don’t want it’s removal to cause lots of problems for inexperienced players.

Personally I think it should be variable temp and not constant, but Klei should build the game to just my taste.

 

[Coolthulhu]

I'm certain no one who is heavily against the fixed temperature mechanic actually considered what would happen if it was removed.

Geyser-fed eletrolyzers would fry entire colonies, you'd have to keep dupes in atmo suits or use other """exploits""" just to keep the base livable. Or only use seeds with overpowered geysers like slush.

[Sasza22]

49 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Geyser-fed eletrolyzers would fry entire colonies

That depends on what would be the conversion. If it produced at the machine temperature like nat gas generators it wouldn`t be a problem ever since current electrolizers output at 70<sup>o</sup>C and it`s managable. If we want the exact heat energy it`s a different story. There was a thread about energy conservation in the elctrolizers and the conclusion was that it`s impossible to keep it realistic in the game world.

Removing the sieve deletion wouldn`t be so harsh for new players as it seems. Considering new players already have trouble cooling geyser water for the plants and mostly sieve the waste water from their base and naturally spawning in the swamp biomes they are actually generating heat rather than deleting it. A bit later in the game they will go for mushroom for food anyway. Toilets and sinks can work fine with pretty hot water so just insulating the farms and letting the base sit at 50<sup>o</sup>C wouldn`t be terrible.

I don`t think removing the sieve deletion would break the game for new players. Not in the first 100 cycles at least.

[Coolthulhu]

22 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

electrolizers output at 70^oC and it`s managable.

That's because 70C doesn't damage dupes and because sieves keep producing 40C water.

95C oxygen would fry dupes. Though if the temperature was preserved exactly, we could still move heat from oxygen to water (1kg of water has more capacity than 0.9kg of oxygen and 0.1kg of hydrogen).

But if all heat energy in water was preserved, the output oxygen would be at something like 300C.

[impyre]

3 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

...overpowered geysers like slush.

I agree... a single slush geyser trivializes cooling to the point that you really needn't bother with "exploits"... and my current map has two that alternate, so they're always running. Of course, if you get a bad seed with few wheezeworts (i've had some bad ones in the past), and few aetn's, and no slush geysers... you'd be in for a very rough time come mid-game. You hit a point where early game methods don't cut it, but you don't have the power/resources to take care of it on a large scale. Right now, fixed outputs ensure that you can bridge mid-game with wheezewort/aetn.

 

2 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

Removing the sieve deletion wouldn`t be so harsh for new players as it seems. Considering new players ... mostly sieve the waste water from their base...

I wonder how many of them use the tepidizer for purification... and I also wonder how many of them heat it before filtering or after.

[yoakenashi]

At the time of creating this post: 60% of people feel fixed output should be fixed - 40% feel it is fine.

[D.L.S.]

10 hours ago, yoakenashi said:

No, I’m not joking. As you pointed out, I was referring to using the sieve to reduce temperatures, not to increase them.

I’m not defending it, I just don’t want it’s removal to cause lots of problems for inexperienced players.

It can not only kill heat but also could create it, all depends on input temperature.

 

9 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

I'm certain no one who is heavily against the fixed temperature mechanic actually considered what would happen if it was removed.

Lets solve problems one by one, if there is lack of thermal balance in the game, it doesn't mean we all should use this exploits to deal with it(and now we must use it, as you said: or you fried your colony or you exploit constant temperature output). We need dedicated device to get rid of heat(was suggested many), but not water sieve whose main function just filter water, it is just OP: it do its main function well - filter water, and as bonus do this thermal manipulations.

 

Just to feel scale of this, here you go: 5kg of polluted water at -15C in -> 5kg of clean water at +40C out: 55K temp difference * 4.186J/g/K * 5000g = 1151150J creating ~1.15MJ oh heat energy for just 120W of electricity each second, for comparison liquid tepidizer create ~4.1MJ of heat for 960W of electricity per second, so water sieve creating heat(at some specific conditions, when input temperature very low) even better then dedicated to heating water device(just as example, exploiting  this massive heating power can save your colony in some ice world map).

As for cooling power: 5kg of polluted water at +115C in -> 5kg of clean water at +40C out: 75K difference, 75 * 4.186 * 5000 = 1569750J, here even better ~1.5MJ of heat just destroys for only 120W of electricity consumption, as comparison aqua tuner transfer ~1MJ oh heat from one medium to another(just move/multiply heat, not kill) with best coolant in the game for 1200W, while magic water sieve doing this better cheaper and as side effect...

Ofc it work at specific cases, but it work and better then dedicated for temperature management devices. Dont liked word "exploit" let call it unbalanced or OP, all calculations above.

[Hexicube]

The sieve is one of only three buildings that I'm aware of that have a fixed temperature output, the others being the electrolyzer (70C) and the steam turbine (226.15C). It's clearly intended.

Now, if you want to talk balance and not bugs, this should stay in place until the AETN gets a buff first. It's garbage right now at -80kDTU/s. For comparison an always-on metal refinery processing gold (lowest heat recipe) produces 16kDTU/s from being a refinery and ~264kDTU/s for processing gold. Steel makes it produce ~2339kDTU/s, something only a steam turbine can reliably control with its minimum 3100kDTU/s heat removal.

By comparison, the sieve is a joke, removing at most ~167kDTU/s (120C pwater to 40C water at 500g/s). Barely exceeds two AETNs.

[Yunru]

22 hours ago, yoakenashi said:

At the time of creating this post: 60% of people feel fixed output should be fixed - 40% feel it is fine.

You mean that of the obviously biased sample, 40% still think it's fine?

That says something.

[impyre]

This is probably one of the most recurrent posts, and also one of the most contested issues. I'm sure they'll figure out something great, whether they change it, modify it, or leave it as is. Most people who want it left as is are less likely to contribute to these threads. I'm in a somewhat tough spot in my base atm, as the sieve isn't removing enough heat (and I'm not going to waste sand just so i can remove more heat)... but I don't think I can pull off steam yet. Not having a slush geyser on my map is making it terribly difficult.

[Mariilyn]

4 hours ago, Hexicube said:

By comparison, the sieve is a joke, removing at most ~167kDTU/s (120C pwater to 40C water at 500g/s). Barely exceeds two AETNs.

It's 5000g/s

[Hexicube]

Whoops, yeah, 1671kDTU/s. That's actually pretty high.

[Sasza22]

22 hours ago, Hexicube said:

The sieve is one of only three buildings that I'm aware of that have a fixed temperature output, the others being the electrolyzer (70C) and the steam turbine (226.15C). It's clearly intended.

The carbon skimmer also has a fixed 40^oC. The oil refinery outputs petroleum at a fixed 75^oC. I wonder if the compost output is fixed as well, not that it`s any useful.

[D.L.S.]

On 03.12.2018 at 9:55 AM, Hexicube said:

Whoops, yeah, 1671kDTU/s. That's actually pretty high.

Yes, and you can build them as many as you want(basically only availability of PWater limit its usage, but we can make pwater in many ways), while AETN unique device with limited quantity on map. AETN require buff, but its another story.

[Lurve]

On 12/2/2018 at 8:32 PM, Hexicube said:

The sieve is one of only three buildings that I'm aware of that have a fixed temperature output, the others being the electrolyzer (70C) and the steam turbine (226.15C). It's clearly intended.

In addition to Sasza's buildings, there's a whole other class of building whose outputs are fixed to the temperature of the building and the input temps are ignored.  Natural gas generators are the most prominent examples: cool the gens down to -10 before switching them on, and they'll make -10 polluted water basically forever because they create their own thermal mass.  It's not as convenient as a totally fixed temperature, but it is very capable of deleting a large amount of heat nonetheless.

I think there's a long enough shopping list for the devs to make a "Thermal Update" in the future.  Remove the heat deletion exploits but add wheezewort breeding, space radiators, buffed AETNs (maybe eventually buildable with space materials), and you ought to end up with a fairly straightforward heat management progression.

[Xuhybrid]

I first started playing in the Thermal Update, so it's amusing to think back to how simple the game was back then. These thermal systems definitely need looking over and reconsidering. I personally don't think it makes logical sense for anything to output at a fixed temperature. If machines have to create more heat to compensate, that's fine. It allows heat to be added early game, without allowing mid-late game abuse of heat deletion.

[Hexicube]

10 hours ago, Lurve said:

wheezewort breeding

You can get more from rockets. It's expensive, but a wort lasts forever.