Why is my AETN overheating

[blash365]

I am having some troubles with my AETN cooling down an aquatuner. The AETN should have a cooling effect of -400W, while the aquatuner has a heat output of ~48W. So expected worst case scenario would be bad conductivity between the two resulting in the AETN cooling itself down to negative amounts, while the Aquatuner overheats.

The best case scenario would be good conductivity with the AETN out-performing the aquatuner resulting in a cool AETN and a cool Aquatuner.

So either way, there should be a cold AETN, cause that thing has the highest cooling output unmatched by anything else in that area.

However what i am observing is the AETN heating up to ~40°C (and increasing). How is that even possible?

 

The aquatuner is submerged in petroleum with a few iron plates connecting it to my hydrogen filled room (10kg per tile atm) with an AETN. The entire Hydrogen area is sealed of with abysalite walls.

There is also a hydrogen geyser which is only separated by an ordinary wall, because i wanted the hydrogen coming out of the geyser being cooled down to reasonable levels. While the geyser is certainly limiting my AETN cooling, i wouldnt expect it to be the main problem, since it only outputs very small amounts of hydrogen (100g/s @500°C).

Can you guys suggest any improvements or enlighten me about the cooling mechanics.

 

On a side-note i would be happy if somebody could also point me to some resources of how to cool the surface of the asteroid. My abysalite-chamber (with glass/diamond top) sits @ 300°C and i cannot get it cooled down.

 

 

Spoiler

Heatmap

 

[Deustodo]

The Heat generation of the Aquatuner can be misleading. It states it will generate +58,12 W cooling 1kg of water. Now here is the problem. Usually you send 10kg of a liquid. So for water it would be +581,2 W. So yeah.

[heckubis]

10k hydrogen per tile is 10 times the volume to transfer heat to. at that amount your slowing down heat transfer on pure gas density alone. 2k takes along time 10 k would take ages.

[trukogre]

3 hours ago, Deustodo said:

The Heat generation of the Aquatuner can be misleading. It states it will generate +58,12 W cooling 1kg of water. Now here is the problem. Usually you send 10kg of a liquid. So for water it would be +581,2 W. So yeah.

1 kg/s of water cooled by 14 Celsius is 1000 * 14 * 4.18 = 58 kw, or for 10 kg/s 580 kW.  The AETN cools by 400 W  times 200 hidden building factor, or 80 kw.  The ratio between the AETN and the aquatuner is thus 5 times larger than Deustodo's figures.  The reason for this discrepancy is that the aquatuner works differently than other heat-generating buildings, it directly moves heat from the liquid into the environment, without the 1/5 building mass factor coming into play.  (200 building factor = 1/5 building mass hidden factor * 1000 heat display error factor)  It should theoretically take just over 7 AETNs to fully cool one aquatuner.  (I haven't tested aquatuner heat production in many patches, so if anyone has more recent info, please share)

[Carnis]

Easier way to cool that aquatuner is submerge it in pW. Insulate it. Run toiletwater through a sieve, comes out at 40C. Then push this 40C water into radiantpipes that cool your aquatuner surroundings. Then electrolyze the heated water.

[chemie]

Cool gas with gas and liquid with liquid.  Aetn and weeze are only good for gas cooling.  Heat capacity is a thing.

[blash365]

5 hours ago, Carnis said:

Easier way to cool that aquatuner is submerge it in pW. Insulate it. Run toiletwater through a sieve, comes out at 40C. Then push this 40C water into radiantpipes that cool your aquatuner surroundings. Then electrolyze the heated water.

Thanks, but i would prefer to get around fix-output temperatures, if possible.

 

10 minutes ago, chemie said:

Cool gas with gas and liquid with liquid.  Aetn and weeze are only good for gas cooling.  Heat capacity is a thing.

That would still leave me with hot liquid. What should i do with it? And please dont say water sieve.

11 hours ago, trukogre said:

1 kg/s of water cooled by 14 Celsius is 1000 * 14 * 4.18 = 58 kw, or for 10 kg/s 580 kW.  The AETN cools by 400 W  times 200 hidden building factor, or 80 kw.  The ratio between the AETN and the aquatuner is thus 5 times larger than Deustodo's figures. 

Two posters, three different sets of numbers.:(

Assuming your numbers are correct, i would expect my hydrogen chamber to be alot warmer already.

[Carnis]

Trukogres numbers are right.

If you want out of fix temps, then you need a pW boiler to delete The heat.

No matter what, aetn will not be sufficient to cool water.

[trukogre]

2 hours ago, blash365 said:

Thanks, but i would prefer to get around fix-output temperatures, if possible.

 

That would still leave me with hot liquid. What should i do with it? And please dont say water sieve.

Two posters, three different sets of numbers.:(

Assuming your numbers are correct, i would expect my hydrogen chamber to be alot warmer already.

The part where we calculated out 10,000 g/s * 14 degrees * 4.18 J per degree-gram and got 580 kW is obviously correct, since that's simple math.  If they ever change(d) aquatuners to cool the full amount, 580 kW with pure water or 840kW with polluted water, but no longer output the full amount of heat to the environment, then aquatuner become not only an expensive but powerful heat mover, but also a powerful heat deleter.  I don't think Klei is likely to do that although I should still test it soon, but, so--what are other explanations for your hydrogen chamber to not be heating as fast as you think?  1.  You're overestimating how much 580 kW actually is.  By comparison, a liquid tepidizer applies around 4200 kW of heating power.  2.  Your insulation isn't perfect around your hydrogen area for two reasons: highly conductive metal doors and noninsulated tiles.

 

"That would still leave me with hot liquid. What should i do with it? And please dont say water sieve."

 

I mean, I could say take the 60 C water you likely have going to your electrolyzers, and heat it to 95 C before it gets to the electrolyzers, but that's heat deletion just like the water sieve.  Not sure what to tell you bro, Klei decided to make liquid tepidizers heat for 4200 kW but AETNs to be A. non replicable and B only cool for 80 kW, I don't know how much more clearly Klei could tell you "you might as well use heat deletion because all the machine based methods for cooling we put in are janky, and by janky we mean not just bad but 2 orders of magnitude smaller than heating effects bad".

[Carnis]

Polluted water turned into Steam then recooled deletes 20kW / 10kg. This value can Be expanded infinitely, If you are ok with your Steam/water hotter than your incoming coolant/pW.

[trukogre]

8 minutes ago, Carnis said:

Polluted water turned into Steam then recooled deletes 20kW / 10kg. This value can Be expanded infinitely, If you are ok with your Steam/water hotter than your incoming coolant/pW.

There doesn't appear to be a consistent reason to be ok with this but not ok with fixed temp heat deletion machines, but it's certainly true that this works and is fun to play around with.  Chilling a petroluem generator to 50 K so it put out 50K blocks of polluted ice is fun too, same caveat as before though.

[Hellshound38]

So your not ok with fixed temp output, but you are ok with magical heat eating hydrogen powered device and magical heat eating plants??

This is like when a monotheist says a religion with many gods is absurd.

[nvzboy]

I think your problem is indeed the hydrogen geyser. If you do the math quickly of how much heat the hydrogen geyser is putting out: dQ = m'*c*dT or Heat output of geyser = 100g/s * 2,4j/(g*°c)* (500-34°C) = 111840 watts or 112kW for short. This is much more than the aetn can handle. So it makes sense that when the geyser is active your AETN overheats.

 

About cooling that room in space: How about you build a bottle emptier and deliver petroleum, water or crude oil  that is much cooler. When you are done, remove the back wall and the hot liquid will go off into space.

[blash365]

2 hours ago, trukogre said:

I mean, I could say take the 60 C water you likely have going to your electrolyzers, and heat it to 95 C before it gets to the electrolyzers, but that's heat deletion just like the water sieve. 

Thanks, but my water is unfortuantely already coming with 90°C (sometimes even hotter) from the water/cold steam geysers. I am already sending a good deal of that to the electrolizers (i have around 6 water/steam geysers on my map, didnt even tap half of them). My problem is that i need water for my bristles and i do not want to use the water sieve technique if i can avoid it.

So far the only reasonable solution i have seen is using alot of oil wells, using oil as cooling medium and drop it into space when it's too hot to handle.

2 hours ago, trukogre said:

Not sure what to tell you bro, Klei decided to make liquid tepidizers heat for 4200 kW but AETNs to be A. non replicable and B only cool for 80 kW, I don't know how much more clearly Klei could tell you "you might as well use heat deletion because all the machine based methods for cooling we put in are janky, and by janky we mean not just bad but 2 orders of magnitude smaller than heating effects bad".

Good point. And my point to klei is: Change that please. Jarrett foolishly asked for feedback on the last live stream.

[trukogre]

26 minutes ago, blash365 said:

Thanks, but my water is unfortuantely already coming with 90°C (sometimes even hotter) from the water/cold steam geysers. I am already sending a good deal of that to the electrolizers (i have around 6 water/steam geysers on my map, didnt even tap half of them). My problem is that i need water for my bristles and i do not want to use the water sieve technique if i can avoid it.

So far the only reasonable solution i have seen is using alot of oil wells, using oil as cooling medium and drop it into space when it's too hot to handle.

Good point. And my point to klei is: Change that please. Jarrett foolishly asked for feedback on the last live stream.

Water already at 90 C:  ah, fair enough.

Oil wells: that's the most realistic solution yet in this thread, although also not super efficient.

Point to Klei:  change it how exactly, though?  venting hot liquids/gases to space is the most realistic, yet most wasteful method.  If Klei changed the max temps you could raise things to with aquatuners/thermoregs by increasing the overheat temps of those machines, it would make that method much much better.  A huge problem with ONI right now is the Steam turbine and the fact that crude oil themocracks into methane, combined with the highly unrealistic energy density of methane in ONI.  These factors mean that Klei is reluctant to let players heat things too easily, which is the strong constraining factor limiting fluid heat dumping into space.

[Sevio]

The steam turbine needs a rework so it works as a condensing steam turbine, giving variable power.based on the amount of cooling done to the steam it condenses. That way it could probably be balanced to work with low temperatures of steam again without creating infinite energy loops.

This should be coupled with a fix for thermocracking of crude oil (should crack to petroleum and coal) and petroleum. (should probably crack to methane and coal) By varying the ratio between coal and petroleum they can balance the energy density of both those steps.

Those two fixes should remove the most important constraints that are keeping Klei from allowing us to heat liquids further and dumping them to lose heat.

Another fairly realistic option for dumping heat to space that doesn't involve mass dumping is with a radiator building that needs to "see space" to work, similarly to solar panels. It could provide a variable amount of cooling based on the temperature of the liquid you pipe through it, (hotter radiators dump more heat, after all) however similarly to the meteor scanners it doesn't work well when other things (especially other radiators nearby) obstruct its view of space.

[KittenIsAGeek]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:51 PM, Deustodo said:

The Heat generation of the Aquatuner can be misleading. It states it will generate +58,12 W cooling 1kg of water. Now here is the problem. Usually you send 10kg of a liquid. So for water it would be +581,2 W. So yeah.

The listed 48 watts of heat is for the operation of the aquatuner.  The device is a heat pump: It moves heat from one point to another.  Specifically heat is moved from the liquid to the environment around the aquatuner.  So, in addition to the 48 watts the building generates, you ALSO must cool the heat moved from the liquid into the environment.  Which, as pointed out above, is quite a lot.

[trukogre]

2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

The listed 48 watts of heat is for the operation of the aquatuner.  The device is a heat pump: It moves heat from one point to another.  Specifically heat is moved from the liquid to the environment around the aquatuner.  So, in addition to the 48 watts the building generates, you ALSO must cool the heat moved from the liquid into the environment.  Which, as pointed out above, is quite a lot.

This doesn't appear to be true, the listed 58 W of heat appears to be the amount of heat = to heating 1000 g/s of water by 14  degrees C, divided by the x1000 temperature display error factor in the code.  I'm looking at the aquatuner description ingame right now, and there doesn't appear to be any 'operating heat' for the aquatuner in the current game version, aside from the heat exchange from the cooled fluid.  IIRC the aquatuner never had an 'operating heat', and before the current 'estimated heat' for 1 kg/s of water was added the heat generation field in the description was just empty.

 

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

1 hour ago, trukogre said:

divided by the x1000 temperature display error factor in the code

Klei just simply multiply specific heat capacity with 14. No mass nor 1000 factor is taken into account. If my memory is right, the display of heat generation of regulator was 14 kw, and aquatuner was 58 w in past. I feel they don't care about the displayed number at all.

BTW, I made a mod to adjust some heat generation mechanism and display. But it was for CU upgrade, and isn't available now.

Spoiler

 

[trukogre]

41 minutes ago, R9MX4 said:

Klei just simply multiply specific heat capacity with 14. No mass nor 1000 factor is taken into account. If my memory is right, the display of heat generation of regulator was 14 kw, and aquatuner was 58 w in past. I feel they don't care about the displayed number at all.

BTW, I made a mod to adjust some heat generation mechanism and display. But it was for CU upgrade, and isn't available now.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

thermoregulator displays 14w...if you're correct and it was once 14kw (which was correct), then that suggests that they indeed did change it to 14w, which is wrong by exactly the 1000 factor, which suggests that they did indeed take the 1000 factor into account.--unless you have another theory as to why they would change it from the correct value to an incorrect value which matches that factor.

 

"Klei just simply multiply specific heat capacity with 14. No mass nor 1000 factor is taken into account"

 

If you're saying that the code doesn't include any mention of (1000grams), then ok, I believe you.  If you're saying that proves they didn't take it into account, I don't agree, they could have taken it account but simply not left any clue in the code that they took it into account other than the fact that the answer matches what it would be if they had and had it cancel out the 1000 error factor, which is a pretty big clue imo, when combined with the above paragraph about the thermoregulator.  It's difficult to mindread what they are or aren't taking into account, right?  Do any of us really understand why all displayed heat generation values are off by a factor of 1000?   (i don't mean, at the level of "it's because it's in the code that way", i mean "they obviously could have changed the code so that buildings display the real heat output by now, but they've chosen to not, for unknown reasons, probably just to save time but we don't know") It's definitely true that the descriptive text which accompanies the aquatuner, the text which pops up when you hover the 58 Watts amount, claims it takes the amount of liquid into account, which is anotehr indication that Klei did in fact take those 1000g into account.

 

anyways, thank you for the information about the code but your information about what the thermoregulator used to say only reinforces my belief that Klei did indeed take both the 1000g and the 1000 error factor into account, although I remain open to further evidence either way, not that it matters other than as a matter of curiosity.

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

In code.

Most building's heat generation display is 1/200, but regulator and aquatuner is 1/1000. Don't you feel strange? factor 200 is confused enough for newbie, and I bet when newbie know they should use factor 1000 instead of factor 200 in some situations, they will be more confusing.

 

 

If someone are confusing about how code works:

Spoiler

Actually factor 1000 should be divided into two factors, as you know, heat capacity factor 0.2 and heat generation display factor 0.005.

Heat generations of most building(except aquatuner, regulator and metal refinery) are multiplied with 0.005 when they are displayed. You can find a global constant called HEAT_KW_DISPLAY_FUDGEFACTOR=0.005, and you can find 0.005 in many places where is relative with heat display.

The display of metal refinery is exactly how much it generates. The generation of aquatuner and regulator exactly equals to how much they move from contents. As for their displayed numbers, I suggest ignore them.

Heat capacity of most building are multiplied with 0.2. It is a variable which called temperature_modification_mass_scale. It equals to 0.2, but in few place, it equals to 1.

 

[PhailRaptor]

The takeaway from all of this (including the other thread about the Electrolyzer and Water Sieve) is that heat management, while functional, is wonky and inconsistent, and will likely be subject to a "tidy up" patch at some point in the future, before the game leaves Early Access.

[Sevio]

Has Klei said anything on their plans for future improvements to anything related to heat management? I'd like it to get a good overhaul but I'm also a bit worried given the road Klei has taken with the expressive update that the thermal system isn't a priority anymore.

[Craigjw]

On 27/07/2018 at 2:54 PM, chemie said:

Cool gas with gas and liquid with liquid.  Aetn and weeze are only good for gas cooling.  Heat capacity is a thing.

Not entirely true, Thermal Conductivity is more relevant than capacity for a heat exchange.

If you have 0 thermal conductivity, it doesn't matter what your Heat capacity is, it could be 1 billion, but it'll never get transferred between objects, as the super dense material you used with 1 billion heat capacity is also a perfect insulator.

I have made very successful gas heat exchange unit using Worts using the correct construction.  Using Wolframite/tungsten for your radiant gas pipes is really the only option, as everything else is really low, also, compressing the Hydrogen in the Wort chamber helps considerably, I personally like to mechanically compress the Hydrogen above 20kg's to maximise the heat transfer.

[trukogre]

2 hours ago, Craigjw said:

Not entirely true, Thermal Conductivity is more relevant than capacity for a heat exchange.

If you have 0 thermal conductivity, it doesn't matter what your Heat capacity is, it could be 1 billion, but it'll never get transferred between objects, as the super dense material you used with 1 billion heat capacity is also a perfect insulator.

I have made very successful gas heat exchange unit using Worts using the correct construction.  Using Wolframite/tungsten for your radiant gas pipes is really the only option, as everything else is really low, also, compressing the Hydrogen in the Wort chamber helps considerably, I personally like to mechanically compress the Hydrogen above 20kg's to maximise the heat transfer.

You could have also said: if you have zero heat capacity, then it doesn't matter what your conductivity is.  This argument doesn't support your thesis, nor is solely examining the empty endpoints of the graph convincing in the slightest.  The truth is, you need adequate capacity and adequate conductivity, you need both.  Chemie is saying that one scenario is not adequate capacity.  If she is correct, then the conducivity doesn't matter, the system doesn't have adequate capacity, so it won't work.  It's that simple. (Where 'work' is defined by "move at minimum a certain x amount of heat", for some x)