Kabrute Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 well there goes free ranging mid game :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScaryOne Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Or ranching. I mean, I'm sure by cycle 50 or 60 most of your wild critters will be dead. I've never stopped running vacuum insulated base walls, but this is going to make everything else suck, like my water sieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risu Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Nemez said: 10 cycle It looks like none of the heat is moving through the borders, just the edges interacting with nearby cells. Funny enough it's the high heat capacity of abyssalite that is the problem with this. They really want to soak up all the nearby heat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasuha Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) I'm pretty sure that the best, "most correct" way of "averaging" two heat transfer coefficients c1 and c2 for ONI purposes is: c(average) = 1/(1/c1 + 1/c2) = c1*c2/(c1 + c2) Edit: I was wrong by factor of two - it should probably be standard harmonic mean. See my later post: Edited April 25, 2018 by Kasuha 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemez Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, Risu said: They really want to soak up all the nearby heat. for me, abyssalite disseminates stored heat / cold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xedlord Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 1 hour ago, watermelen671 said: What does this even mean? ...Does this mean I have to update my neat little critter sheet? I JUST FINISHED THAT!!! It mean's that, for example: If a hatch lays a stone hatch egg, it should now look like a stone hatch egg instead of a hatch egg, and vice versa. And no, you don't have too update the sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThyReaper Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 52 minutes ago, onebit said: Average of 0 and 1. Arithmetic: (0 + 1) / 2 = .5 Geometric: [(0+1) x (1 + 1)]^(1/2) - 1 = .41 Not much difference and higher computational cost. @Nemez Double every wall. The geometric mean is the square root of the product, so 0 and 1 would have a geometric average of 0. Abyssalite and anything else would be roughly sqrt(1e-5 * 1) or 0.003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Cheerio said: average conductivity thats greeeeeeeat! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoazureus Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 20 minutes ago, Kasuha said: I'm pretty sure that the best, "most correct" way of "averaging" two heat transfer coefficients c1 and c2 for ONI purposes is: c(average) = 1/(1/c1 + 1/c2) = c1*c2/(c1 + c2) Fourier's law for two bodies in contact (area = 1 = 1*1) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regault Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 31 minutes ago, Kasuha said: I'm pretty sure that the best, "most correct" way of "averaging" two heat transfer coefficients c1 and c2 for ONI purposes is: c(average) = 1/(1/c1 + 1/c2) = c1*c2/(c1 + c2) This really is the best way to handle it. Since there's no square roots involved it should be mathematically simple for the game to calculate. Technically the formula to determine the heat transfer through a pipe from the liquid to the surround atmosphere is U = 1/[(1/h1)+(dw/k)+(1/h2)] Where h1 and h2 are the heat transfer coefficients of the fluids, k is the conductivity of the pipe, and dw is the pipe's thickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebit Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 (edited) How does that formula compare to the old pipes formula, e.g. granite pipe with oil inside in oxygen atmosphere. Edited April 24, 2018 by onebit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 I found a bug, or didn't find, um, well, I posted a bug report already but I thought it would be fun to share it here too. I was playing when I noticed light wandering around randomly like. o.o 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzkhie Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 invisilbe shinebug? nooooo! cosmic radiation strikes again 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabrute Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 badump tish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Saturnus said: Well, at least it was mentioned in the update notes. A very effective way to heat death the entire map quite fast I must say. Guess we'll go back to the vacuum separated outer walled dwarven fortresses we made a year ago before abyssalite was a thing you could build stuff from. We have come full circle it seems. Fortunately, Borg Cubes still work so we'll have to rely on those a lot more than before to have any chance of making a sustainable base, I guess. "Fortunately" my arse... What an incredibly silly change. So once a piece of the asteroid is revealed, it begins to average out in temperature. Genius.... Looking forward to the incoming reverts for final release. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilalaunekuh Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Just reroll the normal thermal energy transfer for insulated items Would make them usefull even with abysalite, but wouldn´t make every heat transfering build much bigger for the 2. walls^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemez Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 cycle 11- cycle44 stabilization Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Tarunio Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, Kabrute said: badump tish naming hatches when XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fihgu Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Alpe12 said: Major change there. Good bye overpowered Abyssalite. Build two layers of it, problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumPion Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) This averaging of heat coefficients does not make any sense physically or gameplay wise! Thermal conductivity is mathematically the same as electrical resistance. If you have a 1 ohm resistor in series with a 1,000,000 ohm resistor, you do not use the arithmetic average of 500,000! The resistance should be the sum of both! Edited April 25, 2018 by QuantumPion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regault Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Actually the problem with using the standard equation for thermal resistance is that then materials wind up with much lower conductivity than normal. For instance a block of copper conducting heat to a block of copper would do so at 30 W/k rather than 60. The more I look into it, the more I think the geometric mean will create values that "feel" right to people. Of course, given that square roots are a bit more processor heavy than you'd want for something that is calculated for thousands of blocks a tick, it might be best to create a lookup table of material interface conductances. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnambic Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 19 minutes ago, regault said: The more I look into it, the more I think the geometric mean will create values that "feel" right to people. Of course, given that square roots are a bit more processor heavy than you'd want for something that is calculated for thousands of blocks a tick, it might be best to create a lookup table of material interface conductances. This, exactly. I've played around with the numbers for a bit (see below). The original (minimum) formula breaks radiance (assuming that it's implemented as a constant factor, analogous to insulation before). The arithmetic mean kills insulation between solids. Kasuha's proposal causes self-conductance issues as you noted, but even if you "fix" those (say, by doubling the result), naive radiance still doesn't do what one would expect. The geometric mean looks much more reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, pnambic said: This, exactly. I've played around with the numbers for a bit (see below). The original (minimum) formula breaks radiance (assuming that it's implemented as a constant factor, analogous to insulation before). The arithmetic mean kills insulation between solids. Kasuha's proposal causes self-conductance issues as you noted, but even if you "fix" those (say, by doubling the result), naive radiance still doesn't do what one would expect. The geometric mean looks much more reasonable. Factors: Insulated 0.03125(1/32), radiant 32 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnambic Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Just now, R9MX4 said: Factors: Insulated 0.03125(1/32), radiant 32 Serves me right for trusting that Wiki. Thanks! The radiance factor is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 50 minutes ago, QuantumPion said: This averaging of heat coefficients does not make any sense physically or gameplay wise! Thermal conductivity is mathematically the same as electrical resistance. If you have a 1 ohm resistor in series with a 1,000,000 ohm resistor, you do not use the arithmetic average of 500,000! The resistance should be the sum of both! Electrical engineer here.. Wouldn't thermal conductivity be more like resistors in parallel? If that's the case, then I can see why heat is ignoring the insulators. 1/1 + 1/1000000 = 1.000001 = 1/R-total, so R-total would be 0.999999 -- Basically 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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