Complete Character Revision Discussion

[The Curator]

Yes. Balance changes. If you are allergic, simply do not reply. There is no need to scream at it publicly and discourage improvement on the game.

 

Here is the reason, the character balance in this game is one of its greatest problems. Every character either has an outrageous strength that makes game-play absurdly more easy, has not enough strengths to justify their existence, or is just bland in general.

 

Wigfrid has multiple significant boons, which include being fifty percent stronger then Wilson, with no real downsides.

Wolfgang can become double as powerful as Wilson, simply by eating.

Wickerbottom can mass auto-grow crops, among the various other ridiculous advantages of her books.

WX-78 gains ridiculous base statistics towards the endgame, and can perpetually be overcharged for absurd efficiency.

Maxwell can gather resources at a morbidly faster speed then everybody else.

Webber can gather colossal amounts of resources with Spider Wars.

Wendy can massacre weaker mobs with ease using Abigail.

 

There are also blatant disadvantages.

 

Webber's spider befriending mechanic is useless, and the fact he does not trigger spiders when stepping on web makes fighting them needlessly more difficult and tedious for no real reason.

Wendy has to wait for specific time frames for Abigail to even be useful, and she constantly has to bear Abigail as a burden due to her sloppy and intrusive A.I.

Maxwell's duelists are quite useless past a certain danger level, and Maxwell's gatherers are absolute destructive hooligans.

Woodie gains no benefits from the Werebeaver form, and Woodie in general has very lackluster and unappealing gimmicks.

Willow has a large box full of worthless items and meaningless gimmicks left behind after a shoddy attempt to nerf her from popular demand.

 

 

The point is, every character but Wilson the Average Default and Wes the Challenge Mode could use a complete rework to iron out their overly negative or overly positive traits; which force them into certain min-max patterns like RPG classes. Balance is key, every sizable boon needs a sizable downside. Clever design choices help make this less of a boring scale of strength and weakness.

This thread is in general discussion because this should be a discussion among all players who main each character as to how that character could be changed for the better. Yes, some players are fine with Abigail; but Abigail still has blatant design flaws. Why not change her completely so that she is fine across the board, she does not have to be a nuisance. It may be easier to leave it that way, but to improve the game changes need to be made.

Otherwise, the current meta will remain.

Some worry that changing one meta character will just take away from the meta that is actually used, well there is an exceptionally easy solution to this; balance all of the characters so there is no longer such clear meta and every character is evenly enjoyable to use.

Nerf or buff is not the proper word for this process. Proper balance changing is not about simply cutting down or stacking up numbers. Doing this will just wipe away the colours of that characters profile. If changes need to be made, it is better to rebuild the character from the ground up; using the same themes as their original design but keeping in mind the problems that design had caused. Finding a way to keep their original themes, but reworking them to be fair and still enjoyable to play.

 

Have provided a template of possible new designs for each character, based off having used each of them for moderate amounts of time to gauge what was too good or too bad about them. The goal is to discuss any additional changes or other templates that could be used, not to argue whether Wigfrid is balanced because Wolfgang is more absurd by comparison. Every unique character is up for changes, because every character does have some manner of problem in the balance of their design.

 

 

 

Wigfrid :

 

150 Health

180 Hunger

120 Sanity

Wigfrid has 20% more attack power and 20% less defense power then the average character.

Wigfrid is able to craft a special Battle Spear, which has the same damage as an average Spear but with more durability. Using moonstone as an unique requirement to craft. She is also capable of crafting her special Battle Helmet, providing the same defense as a football helmet but with more durability as well. Using multiple marble as a unique ingredient.

Wigfrid loses additional sanity from everything from the darkness to picking evil flowers, however she loses less sanity then average while fighting or being near enemies. Wigfrid gradually gains sanity from combat.

Wigfrid will only eat meat, but has a larger stomach for storing hunger gained.

 

This new Wigfrid encourages a much more stylistic play-style. Her damage is balanced out by her weakness, encouraging players to kite. Rewarding players for it additionally. Wigfrid also has differently balanced variables for sanity, losing more from regular events but losing less from combat. This encouraging her to participate in stressful combat over stressful acts.

By gaining sanity in combat, this helps her to regenerate the additional sanity she loses normally. Even allowing her to regenerate autonomously by being actively violent.

Finally, reducing the power of the Battle Spear helps mitigate her damage potential. Having the additional ingredients changed to more obscure materials rewards players for finding moonstone and marble in the world to create superior base equipment.

 

 

Wolfgang :

 

200 Health

220 Hunger

150 Sanity

Wolfgang has 10% more defense power then the average character and 10% less attack.

Wolfgang becomes stronger and weaker based on his hunger. When his hunger is on the lower spectrum, he loses his defense bonus and loses an additional 15% attack power. When his hunger is maximum, he gains 15% more defense and loses his attack penalty. His hunger decrease slightly fluctuates based on how full he is, when over 150 hunger it drains 20% faster; when below 80 hunger it drains 20% slower.

Wolfgang loses more sanity while near the darkness and loses sanity passively while hungry, however he gains slightly more sanity then average from the daytime and eating food.

 

The new Wolfgang is centred around being a tank, who also has a unique play on hunger. Wolfgang has lower statistic bonuses then Wigfrid, but he gains more and loses his negative effects when he is well fed. Additionally, Wolfgang encourages hunger management in general. Allowing players to survive longer when they starve, while punishing them with weaker statistics, rewarding players for keeping him well fed; but he burns hunger faster.

Wolfgang also loses more sanity from the darkness, but this is offset by him gaining more in the day. He also gains more sanity from eating, which pairs with him losing sanity gradually while hungry. With lower polarities to each side of his hunger spectrum, there is less room for his power to be exploited and more room for him to suffer from being underfed.

 

 

WX-78 :

 

80 Health

80 Hunger

80 Sanity

WX-78 starts off very weak, however he can increase his basic statistics by consuming gears. This caps at 250 health, 250 hunger and 200 sanity. It requires twenty gears for WX-78 to reach his maximum statistics. Additionally, WX-78 regenerates 60 of every statistic when consuming gears. This effect decreases to 30 after he maximizes his statistics.

WX-78 loses health and sanity at 0.5 per second while it is raining, however WX-78 is also a magnet for lightning. When struck, he regains 100 of every statistic and gains a several minute speed boost. However successive lightning strikes will have the opposite effect.

WX-78 receives no penalties for eating spoiled food.

 

WX-78 starts off hard, but finishes strong as he consumes gears to improve. To help with the rough start, he also regenerates by eating gears while strengthening himself. But this effect is mitigated by the time he is maximized.

WX-78 suffers from the rain, but he is rejuvenated and empowered by lightning. He naturally attracts lightning to help increase this likelihood, but the effect does not stack. Because rain is more common then lightning, WX-78 also is resistant to spoiled food to help offset his weakness towards water.

Having repeated lightning strikes punished stops Wickerbottom from boosting WX-78 with rejuvenating lightning strikes.

 

 

Wickerbottom :

 

150 Health

150 Hunger

220 Sanity

Wickerbottom gains twenty five percent more sanity from prototyping new things, but starts off with the same knowledge as everybody else. She also loses less sanity from everything then other characters. However she has insomnia, and cannot sleep to restore herself.

Wickerbottom receives significantly greater penalties for eating spoiled food, but gains slightly more benefits then average for eating fresh food.

Wickerbottom is capable of crafting special books with unique effects. But, these books cost significant amounts of resources to craft and have very limited uses. Wickerbottom gains sanity from crafting each one.

 

Wickerbottom benefits from having a higher sanity pool and lower sanity drain then the average character, making her highly resistant. She even gains more sanity from prototyping and reading books. However she is incapable of sleeping, which means she is deprived of an extremely valuable method for regenerating health and sanity.

Wickerbottom incurs large penalties from eating spoiled food, but gains slightly more from healthy food. Because spoiled food is less common, the penalty is greater then the benefit of fresh food which is a more common resource.

Wickerbottom's books provide a massive potential boon, but they require significant amounts of resources to craft. They have very limited uses to avoid them being overused, but they rejuvenate some sanity each time they are crafted due to their rarity and limited uses.

 

 

Woodie :

 

150 Health

170 Hunger

150 Sanity

Woodie starts the game with his special axe Lucy, who has infinite durability but only seventy percent of the attack damage of an average axe. Woodie however chops trees at an average speed, but regenerates sanity while doing so.

Woodie has a special meter which decreases when he does not chop trees, it increases largely when he chops and somewhat if he eats wood. The lower the meter becomes, the faster Woodie's sanity drains when he is in stressful circumstances.

Woodie will morph into a Werebeaver if his special meter reaches zero, or a full moon occurs. During this state Woodie drops all his items and gains a significant amount of base attack, defense and insulation. While in his Werebeaver form he cannot interact with normal items save for munching them, but he also has limited nightvision. While in Werebeaver form Woodie loses sanity and hunger gradually, and can only return to normal if he chops and or eats a large amount of wood as the meter will continue draining while in this form.

Woodie gains some hunger, sanity and health from eating wood, twigs and the like. He also gains sanity from planting saplings.

 

Woodie revolves specifically around woodcutting. He has an additional meter which needs to be fulfilled by cutting wood, but he gains sanity from doing so and planting saplings. This also helps make up for his lower sanity. If the meter is not satisfied he will morph into a Werebeaver, which can be used as a combat advantage. However, he loses sanity and hunger while in this form and so it will make him suffer. Woodie needs to put effort into returning to normal when in this form as the meter will keep draining if he stops munching, but his hunger and sanity will keep draining. Meaning, the form cannot just be used for free combat power, it will drain from Woodie and requires effort to get out of so it cannot be easily used for drop-in-and-out combat power.

The insulation of the Werebeaver allows them to survive significantly long periods of time in the winter, but in the summer it is a drawback.

Woodie has an axe with infinite durability to help him chop, and she helps warn him of when he meter is getting too low. Woodie even can consume wood and similar items to slightly regenerate himself as a whole to help benefit his need to constantly chop wood. This also helps balance out his increased sanity drain as the special meter decreases.

 

 

Willow :

 

150 Health

140 Hunger

120 Sanity

Willow begins the game with a special lighter, which lasts moderately longer then a torch. The lighter is able to cook food without a fire, but this consumes a portion of its durability. It does however have a smaller field of illumination then a torch. The lighter regenerates durability while not in use, although the durability is only visible while holding it or hovering your cursor over it.

Willow begins the game with Bernie, her plush bear. When Bernie is set on the ground, he will taunt nearby enemies to distract them. Enemies will remain attracted to Bernie even if they are attacked. But Bernie has a very small health pool, and so he cannot distract enemies for long. Two uses of a sewing kit will repair him completely.

Willow regenerates small amounts of sanity and health while she is near fires, however the effect does not stack. She also loses sanity 10% faster then the average character, and gains significantly more regeneration from open fires. Campfires and stone fire pits regenerate much less. The size of the fire increases how much she regenerates from it.

Willow suffers significantly less damage from overheating, and has a much higher resistance to reaching overheating. However she has significantly less resistance to the cold, and takes more damage when freezing.

 

Willow is able to use Bernie as a special combat advantage, however he costs chunks of sewing kit durability to repair and has a low damage threshold. Willow also has a special lighter that can cook without fires, but it costs rechargeable durability. The lighter however has a very small range of view, and so it cannot be used for easy exploration at night. But it is a constant tool for lightning rogue fires.

Willow loses sanity slightly faster and has a smaller sanity pool then usual to make up for her unique ability to regenerate while near fires. Having her gain more from rogue fires started by setting random things aflame gives her an added benefit, at the cost of consuming natural resources. Having the regeneration change based on fire size also means that burning larger things is more beneficial, but potentially costly.

Willow also is more resilient to the summer due to her fascination with fire and thus heat, but she is in turn more susceptible to the cold. However her benefits from fire help compensate this as well.

 

 

Webber :

 

175 Health

140 Hunger

100 Sanity

Webber is viewed as a monster, and so normally friendly creatures like pigs and bunnies will be aggressive towards him. However spiders are friendly towards Webber.

Webber will not be slowed by webbed ground, but will still trigger spiders if he steps on it. Additionally, Webber can feed a spider meat to befriend it. Only one spider will be befriended, but they will follow Webber for a significant period of time. Up to five spiders can be befriended at one time. If Webber is attacked, any spiders in the area will become aggressive to the attacker as if they attacked one of their own. However, if Webber attacks a spider; any spiders he has befriended will turn against him. Webber can construct spider nests himself, and feed spider nests silk to increase their current tier.

Webber is able to eat monster meat and monster lasagna with no downsides, gaining more then average restoration from them. However, Webber gains slightly less from consuming normal foods.

Webber can also grow a beard of silk.

 

Webber is capable of amassing small groups of minions to support him in combat at the cost of meat, this replacing the ability to befriend pigs and bunnies. Spiders are also friendly to him and will support him if he is attacked nearby, making up for the fact that pigs and bunnies are extremely aggressive and persistent in pursuing him. But, Webber will still trigger spiders by walking on their web in order to still make them accessible opponents.

Having allied spiders turn against him if he attacks their own kind stops him from enacting Spider Wars, ridiculously efficient and without risk ways of massacring spiders.

Webber has lower sanity and hunger, but slightly higher health. He also is able to craft and improve spider nests himself and grow a beard of silk. Finally, Webber is not only able to eat monster meat without penalties but benefits more from it. While gaining slightly less from regular food, changing his eating priorities from the norm.

 

 

Wendy :

 

120 Health

120 Hunger

200 Sanity

Wendy is slightly weaker then the average survivor, with 10% less damage and defense, she also has a smaller pool of health and hunger. However Wendy loses 30% less sanity then the average character, and has a higher sanity pool.

Wendy starts off with Abigail's Flower, the flower blooming after several days. When Abigail's Flower is in bloom, Wendy can activate it manually at the cost of 80 sanity and 40 health. This will summon Abigail's spirit to fight for her.

Abigail has a total of 600 health, taking average damage from regular enemies and reduced damage from bosses. Abigail deals 40 damage during the day, 60 damage at dusk and 80 damage at night.

Abigail strikes single targets, but will occasionally activate a more powerful attack with higher damage and an area of effect. Abigail will actively disengage from combat if Wendy leaves the area, and Abigail will only fight for less then a few minutes before disappearing and returning 40 sanity to Wendy. Her flower will bloom again randomly between a day to several days at which point she can be summoned again.

 

Wendy is balanced by lower base power and thresholds, but a higher resilience to sanity. She also is able to spawn Abigail, an exceptionally powerful ally capable of tanking and dealing high amounts of damage. Abigail briefly consumes sanity and health, putting Wendy at risk, returning some of it afterwards while still taking a permanent deduction. Wendy's higher resilience to insanity making it easier for her to maintain higher amounts to afford this cost.

Wendy is meant to be a moderately below average fighter, who makes up for this by being able to spawn a profoundly powerful ally for brief periods of time at the cost of sanity and health.

 

 

Maxwell :

 

80 Health

140 Hunger

200 Sanity

Maxwell is significantly weaker then the other characters, with less health he also has 25% less damage and resource gathering speed when using tools such as axes. Maxwell however is naturally dapper, he loses significantly less sanity from all sources but also gains slightly less sanity from positive sources.

Maxwell is capable of summoning shadow puppets at will using his Codex Umbra, each shadow puppet is capable of switching to any tool to assist Maxwell in gathering resources. They each have the gather efficiency of 15% of a normal characters abilities. When in combat, their damage scales to be 15% of Maxwell's. The puppets will only engage in activities Maxwell first does.

The Codex Umbra can be upgraded with nightmare fuel, to increase the base values of the puppets by 0.5% for each one. This caps at twenty fuel.

For every puppet present Maxwell's sanity drains, but he is also capable of banishing them at will. A maximum of four puppets can exist at a time, and their sanity drain scales slightly as the Codex Umbra is upgraded.

 

Maxwell uses his puppets to compensate for his weakness. Additionally, Maxwell is significantly resilient to sanity drain so that he may consume his sanity to summon puppets. But, he also gains less sanity from performing restorative acts and so massively consuming sanity for puppets will make it harder to recover. Maxwell can use the puppets in mass to become even stronger in both combat and gathering then the average character, but this is offset by the sanity cost it will incur which is more difficult to recover from.

[Astroknot]

(Wigfrid is only 25% better then Wilson in combat not 50%) If these changes were to get added I would stop playing. I know were supposed to be constructive, but these changes make all the characters very bland, boring and change WAY too much compared to single-player. The way the characters are now with the exception of Willow, they really just need to have slight tweaks, not full overhauls. Klei made a great decision back in single-player to not worry about balance and simply about how fun a character was to play. So what if Wolfgang is OP? We like him that way.

[Rellimarual]

13 minutes ago, Astroknot said:

If these changes were to get added I will stop playing.

I wouldn't worry too much about that.

[56933043043]

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

Additionally, Webber can feed a spider meat to befriend it. Only one spider will be befriended, but they will follow Webber for a significant period of time. Up to five spiders can be befriended at one time.

I vehemently disagree with this change to Webber's spider army.

The strenght of the spider army lies in the use of many expendable followers. Spiders are weak. Their attacks are interrupted by enemy attacks. Why be Webber to have 5 maximum spiders when I can be any other character, and have over 15 pigs or bunnymen follow me? Minions that don't get stunlocked, attack faster , take and deal more damage, have names, and that I can give helmets to make even bulkier? Webber's advantage over those options is that he can get a ridiculously high number of minions.

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

Webber is able to eat monster meat and monster lasagna with no downsides, gaining more then average restoration from them. However, Webber gains slightly less from consuming normal foods.

Monster meat and monster lasagna give no health or sanity benefits. They just give a decent amount of hunger.  At the cost of getting less stats back from blue caps, icecream, dragonpie, jerky, honey ham, fishsticks-(...list goes on...). Webber would have no problem starving(trivializes the name of the game) since monster meat is so common, and he'd be worse for combat because he wouldn't be able to heal as quickly.

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

Yes. Balance changes. If you are allergic, simply do not reply. There is no need to scream at it publicly and discourage improvement on the game.

If there are flaws in what you propose, it's best for them to be pointed out. This is an online forum, the whole point of it is to openly discuss and debate ideas about the game. Telling people to not reply to your post will only make them less likely to consider your ideas and discuss them with you.

 

 

 

 

 

[CarlZalph]

As playing as much Waxwell as I have, I'd like to see the puppet master be able to control the puppets more.

The auto cruise-control AI could be a fallback default when not being controlled, but for important tasks such as the duelists I feel they should be able to be controlled to follow Waxwell in sync with his actions to make them any bit viable towards stronger monsters.

Think of it like multiboxing, but with the shadow puppets. -> https://gfycat.com/DistantAdorableHylaeosaurus

 

The proposed change by the OP to make his overall productivity decrease initially and increase to a tiny bit over his current state via 20 fuel is a nifty idea and one I can get behind.

The math checks out for 2+ puppets to be equal/better when at the 20 fuel.

[The Curator]

3 hours ago, Sketched_Philo said:

I vehemently disagree with this change to Webber's spider army.

The strenght of the spider army lies in the use of many expendable followers. Spiders are weak. Their attacks are interrupted by enemy attacks. Why be Webber to have 5 maximum spiders when I can be any other character, and have over 15 pigs or bunnymen follow me? Minions that don't get stunlocked, attack faster , take and deal more damage, have names, and that I can give helmets to make even bulkier? Webber's advantage over those options is that he can get a ridiculously high number of minions.

Monster meat and monster lasagna give no health or sanity benefits. They just give a decent amount of hunger.  At the cost of getting less stats back from blue caps, icecream, dragonpie, jerky, honey ham, fishsticks-(...list goes on...). Webber would have no problem starving(trivializes the name of the game) since monster meat is so common, and he'd be worse for combat because he wouldn't be able to heal as quickly.

If there are flaws in what you propose, it's best for them to be pointed out. This is an online forum, the whole point of it is to openly discuss and debate ideas about the game. Telling people to not reply to your post will only make them less likely to consider your ideas and discuss them with you.

 

 

 

 

 

The change of minions is suggested because from experience, you need to feed spiders ridiculous food items to get them to follow you for more then half a day. And, in Together, there seems to be actually a cap of three spider minions. Attempting to befriend more then that always leads to the previous ones losing their befriending. Perhaps this is incorrect, but this is what has been observed from multiple tens of hours as Webber. Which is why people default to Spider Wars, because it's the only viable use for the extremely limited mechanics of befriending them.

Webber already can use monster meat to stay perpetually fed, because it is so easy to acquire. That change was an attempt to at least force him to rely exclusively on monster meat to help counter its benefits. However, Spider Wars certainly do not help the matter. Still, it would be good for there to be some downside to Webber for his ability to eat the meat.

The people being addressed at the start of the post are ones who do not actually talk about balance, and simply complain and persecute people who bring the subject up. Even going so far as to ask the subject to automatically locked because it's been talked about before in a month old derailed thread. No. Excluding those people does not reduce the openness of this thread, those people are already excluding themselves. Which is the entire problem.

4 hours ago, Astroknot said:

(Wigfrid is only 25% better then Wilson in combat not 50%) If these changes were to get added I would stop playing. I know were supposed to be constructive, but these changes make all the characters very bland, boring and change WAY too much compared to single-player. The way the characters are now with the exception of Willow, they really just need to have slight tweaks, not full overhauls. Klei made a great decision back in single-player to not worry about balance and simply about how fun a character was to play. So what if Wolfgang is OP? We like him that way.

Wigfrid has 25% bonus damage and defense, that is 50% stronger. Perhaps in Together one of those variables was removed, however from all the hours spent on the Don't Starve Together wiki it very rarely mentions character differentiations between Together and the main game. So no way of knowing.

Yes. If your meta characters were no longer meta you would not be able to destroy the game with zero effort despite the fact it is supposed to be a challenging, unforgiving wilderness survival game. The characters all still have unique abilities and some like Wigfrid were even given entirely new ones to make them different from Wolfgang. Perhaps you do not like them but they are certainly not bland, which is pretty much you saying the characters are already bland but because some of them are overpowered that makes up for it.

2 hours ago, CarlZalph said:

The proposed change by the OP to make his overall productivity decrease initially and increase to a tiny bit over his current state via 20 fuel is a nifty idea and one I can get behind.

The math checks out for 2+ puppets to be equal/better when at the 20 fuel.

Yes the idea was, he uses puppets to make up for his base weakness; and by sacrificing sanity to spawn even more of them he can become able to outplay other characters at the risk of becoming insane. Then the small sanity regain penalty helps make recovering from this more difficult, and the sanity drain increase as the Codex is upgraded accounts for how much stronger he can become as a whole with the upgrades.

[Arlesienne]

Characters are already established, with different playstyles and ideas, the game is no longer in beta and they won't be changed, I'm 99% sure. Klei wraps up ANR and then we can hope for events adding new content. Anything you want, change with a mod, just stop the flood of topics featuring people acting like they've been around for a long time and correcting Klei on their way of thinking. DST is very moddable for this reason: you customise your adventure while avoiding Paladins-style "Nerf X" or "Buff Y" threads all around.

We like the characters enough the way they are. Just look how happy WX is!

#HugYourAutomatonFriendDay

[Astroknot]

2 hours ago, The Curator said:

 

Wigfrid has 25% bonus damage and defense, that is 50% stronger. Perhaps in Together one of those variables was removed, however from all the hours spent on the Don't Starve Together wiki it very rarely mentions character differentiations between Together and the main game. So no way of knowing.

Yes. If your meta characters were no longer meta you would not be able to destroy the game with zero effort despite the fact it is supposed to be a challenging, unforgiving wilderness survival game. The characters all still have unique abilities and some like Wigfrid were even given entirely new ones to make them different from Wolfgang. Perhaps you do not like them but they are certainly not bland, which is pretty much you saying the characters are already bland but because some of them are overpowered that makes up for it.

25% bonus defense is totally pointless if you know how to kite making that perk "almost" useless. I don't even play the meta characters, I main Wes and Webber. I personally like how Klei has developed the cast (except for Willow) and because this is a co-op game, the balance is mostly unimportant. Also the changes you proposed for Wolfgang ruin his strongman persona completely, and my main problem with your changes is that they're all just massive nerfs with a few buffs thrown in for good measure. I do respect your opinion however so I won't continue to post in this thread as to prevent a massive war of sorts. Have a nice day/evening/night.

[HamBatter]

I like the concept of making Maxwell more DS-like with better puppet mechanics.

Don't know how well this would work in practice:

• each minion costs 55 max sanity and 15 health, lasting 2.5 days
• minions don't have hitboxes for non-players, but every 1-2 hits on Maxwell despawns one
• for following Maxwell actions: attempt to repeat chop x3, mine/dig/kite attack x2
• damage 33

[StretchVanb]

Listen bud.

I'm that it that joined a RP and left without explanation. I am the stalker of this forum, and as such deserved no respect.

But I will not stand aside and let you propose broken changes to characters in a game obviously centered around fun, not balance. Nerfing "Meta" characters isn't even a good idea. The optimal thing to do would be buffing non-meta characters. But do you seriously think Klei will make hardcore, "leet" centric changes like these when they have a literal challenge character in the game? Like, a character whose only purpose is being statistically below average? No. That's your answer. Wolfgang might be "OP", but his abilities are designed to be fun, not balanced. They ruined Willow by making changes like this, and I doubt they are willing to make the same mistake again. I mained Willow and it's because of players like you that I switched to Wendy, and then eventually Wolfgang. What I appreciated about all of them is their fun play styles. All of them are broken. Even Wes' balloons are broken when used right. Your incapability of using their abilities correctly is not a flaw in the game. You know Willow? She's the only exception. The only "balanced" one except for Wilson. And she is BORING to play.

Back off. I won't let you ruin a good game with these suggestions. And I won't let you keep being a edgy prick to everyone on the forum. Telling people to "not answer" if they don't like your ideas is childish. Learn how to actually be polite yo. You might think me a hypocrite, but I am acting defensive. I repeat, you will NOT keep ruining the atmosphere of these forums.

Now if you were to accept other's points, I would totally be willing to be friends with you. Can you please try?

[AniMike]

As always in these adjust the characters posts I always will disagree. Short and simple.

[56933043043]

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

The change of minions is suggested because from experience, you need to feed spiders ridiculous food items to get them to follow you for more then half a day. And, in Together, there seems to be actually a cap of three spider minions. Attempting to befriend more then that always leads to the previous ones losing their befriending. Perhaps this is incorrect, but this is what has been observed from multiple tens of hours as Webber. Which is why people default to Spider Wars, because it's the only viable use for the extremely limited mechanics of befriending them.

Webber already can use monster meat to stay perpetually fed, because it is so easy to acquire. That change was an attempt to at least force him to rely exclusively on monster meat to help counter its benefits. However, Spider Wars certainly do not help the matter. Still, it would be good for there to be some downside to Webber for his ability to eat the meat.

I booted up the game to verify the first claim, and it seems like there isn't a cap for spidery minions(if there is, it is , certainly higher than 3).

At first I thought you were arguing to decrease Webber's minion cap, not to increase it. Regardless, a cap of 5 is very low for weak and very expendable followers. I'd be fine if it stayed as is.

Webber already has downsides as a counterpoint to his spider army and monster meat tolerance. He can't use bunnymen or pigs,and as I mentioned before, are better fighters, but asides from that:

>Bunnymen are excellent for farming Krampus, as killling them gives 3 naughtiness points(butterflies give 1 point). If any of them survive, they'll attack Krampus on sight, too.

>Bunnymen are also a good source of meat, vegetables, beard hair,and to a lesser extent, beard hair and monster meat.

>Pigmen can chop down trees. Just befriending one already gives a notable increase in wood obtained from chopping.

>Pigmen can be fed monster meat directly by most characters(not Webber) to turn them into Werepigs and guarantee pig skin drops from them. Webber has to go across hoops to get a pigman to eat the four pieces of monster meat(pigmen have a delay between food consumption).

>Heck, it's possible to make bunnymen fight each other , the same way spiders can in spider wars. Bunnymen just happen to require a longer setup time, but it can be done by every character(...again,Webber is the exception).

Webber's one edge over these armies is high numbers. Why take it away?

There's also Webber having half the maximum sanity of every other character, which means that he'll go insane faster...but having a low total sanity score means faster changes between insanity and sanity, so...sort of a double-edged sword.

I think that Webber has enough downsides as is. I find him a boring character because it's far too easy to be self-sufficient with spider wars. These changes you propose for him would only make him more boring and predictable in my eyes. 

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

The people being addressed at the start of the post are ones who do not actually talk about balance, and simply complain and persecute people who bring the subject up. Even going so far as to ask the subject to automatically locked because it's been talked about before in a month old derailed thread. No. Excluding those people does not reduce the openness of this thread, those people are already excluding themselves. Which is the entire problem.

...If the problem is that these people are excluding themselves from these threads...why do you say statements that only make it more likely that they'll exclude themselves? If these people have excluded themselves from these threads(as you said), is there a point to excluding them?  It seems counterproductive to me: I assumed you directed that at everyone in a "If you disagree, keep it to yourself." manner.

Some people are reluctant to discuss Wigfrid and character balance because of that one thread that went on for over 15 pages. The topic has been beat to the ground already.

"let it die, let it die, let it shrivel up and-"

 

[PillsStealer]

Your ideas on changing webber isn't great, at all.

Positives

• Silk Beard
• Can walk on silk
• Eat monster meat
• Make spider nests

Negatives

• Slightly less hunger gain from normal food (Did you know 95% of food are normal food)
• Passive animals hate him
• Low Sanity
• Low Hunger
• Nerfed Spider Army
• If attacks friendly spider, they turn on him
• Max 5 Spider Friends
• Spider friends are fragile
• Spider friends can get stunlocked
• The cost of 1 spider friend is 1 meat

Overall your changes to Webber will kill the poor child, leave him alone

[HamBatter]

I thought the concept of Webber was to plop some Dens/Queens, wait until Dusk, then have one Spider attack an unsuspecting target. It's too bad there are so few enemies that make it viable and worth the effort though.

He's fine as is, but regaining the ability to eat horrible meats would be neat.

[Toros]

You're going to get a lot of negative feedback that is diffuse, largely because characters have been largely untouched, and when they were touched, it ended poorly.

 

I'll get to my specific criticisms eventually, but the fundamental problem is that you don't understand the game well enough to be able to make these sort of major reworks.  You don't understand the impact of each change and as a result you have a tepid mixture of good and bad ideas that isn't going to get the support of anyone.

 

Character specific:  The general theme is major nerfs and leaving minor, unimportant strengths that make character choice largely aesthetic.  You may have increased mechanical balance but you stripped out the flavor and appeal of some of the characters.

 

Wigfrid: I've told you this before, Wigfrid isn't OP.  You then made her worse and even less appealing to play.  Her bonuses are pointless and her battle helm/spear are way too expensive.  They were only ever decent equipment.

 

Wolfgang:  Your version of Wolfgang is ruined.  People play wolfgang for his speed and his damage.  His high max health is a decent afterthought but healing items make a defense bonus a joke.

 

Wx: There's no need to start him so low, and your lightning strike change has enormous grief potential.  The only real issue with Wx is how massive his stats get and how long overcharge can last.

 

Wickerbottom:  This is actually not bad.  Making her books more expensive and removing her free innate science machine don't necessarily break her, though I'm guessing you'd want to go too far with it.  No one really has issues with wickerbottom being OP, because she does it in a fun and interesting way.

 

Woodie:  This is a grab bag of changes that mostly just counter each other out.  Wereform is still questionably useful, and dropping all your items when a full moon occurs is not good design in a multiplayer environment.  He also would struggle to farm nightmare fuel due to the excessive number of sanity restoring mechanics.

 

Willow:  Standing near fires for significant periods is already a waste of time.    You haven't done anything to solve her lack of an upside, lighter is still pretty useless, and so is Bernie.  Torches are cheap to the point they're practically free, so anything that leaves the lighter worse off is a bad idea.

 

Webber: Doesn't need a nerf like you suggest, but I do like the triggering webs thing.  I already wrote and published a webber rework that leaves him balance but a lot more interesting, so your version doesn't appeal.

 

Wendy: The primary and arguably best use of Abigal is farming spiders and bees and other weak aoe vulnerable creatures who get stunlocked.  Making her do single target damage with her tiny health pool is a distinct nerf.  There are several mods that improve Abi's AI, and I'd take them over what you're suggesting.

 

Maxwell:  You've made Maxwell's puppets garbage for gathering, made maxwell himself worse at fighting, and the puppets remain garbage at fighting.  He's also worse at staying insane.  You can already banish his puppets easily.  You don't understand Max's mechanics and uses to realize how much worse off you're leaving him.  Also, it's "en masse" not "in mass"

 

Learn more about the game, learn from people who have rebalanced the characters before you, and better.

[Auth]

Something tells me you are way overestimating the usefulness of wigfrid's gear. If this stuff costed this much I'd just laugh it off and go back to EXTREME PIG GENOCIDE DEERCLOPS EDITION and get nine trillion football helmets and tentacle spikes, and I'd just use the marble on marble suits, which, is already one of the best armors in the game (if you can pilot around moving slower than usual, which, with a walking cane, is stupidly easy as its still +0.15)

I've been hearing you trash talking wigfrid a lot, and as a wigfrid main, I don't actually think you've played them a lot but you are instead super salty that the characters are all different from the standard wilson you chose to play as or whatever. Wigfrid is not a "survival made easy" or a "supreme fighter", but they still have a semi-aggressive playstyle. If you remove wigfrid's "Helpful teammate" thing (unless they live in a hyperactive meteor zone with a thousand marble shrubs) then you're going to witness a lot of wigfrids just moving to wolfgang as he gets the job done better than wigfrid in almost every scenario, which I'm pretty sure will just make you shift your arguement. The way you should look at Wigfrid is that she's meant to be the RoG walani (except if they actually made Walani a good character) meaning she gets a great start early game but mid to late game almost everyone outclasses them in everything.

 

Is wigfrid perfect? No. Could she use a tweak? Yeah sure, I know the perfect one. Should the entire game bend over backwards to nerf her? Lordy loo no. I know I shouldn't even bother replying to you as you'll just nitpick this post to get me to say what you want for the ultimate perfect comebacks, but you should still stop overestimating wigfrid.

[KoreanWaffles]

There are a few things I'd like to comment on with your proposals (and by a few I mean a lot).

Wigfrid: If you nerf Wigfrid's spear to deal the same damage as a normal spear, and make it harder to craft with the only real benefit being increased durability, why not just craft multiple normal spears instead? Also, one great thing about Wigfrid's battle spear is that  it deals 42.5 damage. Paired with her 25% increased damage output, she deals 53.125 damage per swing. This is really significant because it surpasses the 50 damage threshold, meaning she can 2 shot creatures like spiders who only have 100 health. With your proposed changes, a 34 damage spear paired with 20% increased damage only nets you 40.8 damage per swing which means she 3 shots spiders like everyone else. This is the same reason why Klei buffed the War Saddle to deal 16 bonus damage from 15. A default Beefalo will deal 34 damage per swing; that's 3 hits to kill a spider. With a 15+ damage modifier, a default Beefalo only deal 49 damage per swing, still requiring 3 hits to kill a spider. A 16+ damage modifier reaches that 50 damage threshold.
Also, her lower max hunger is supposed to encourage players to fight more. Lower max hunger means she'll have to eat more regularly (but not necessarily more), and since she can only eat meat, she'll have to kill animals more frequently to obtain said meat. Taking 20% more damage doesn't make much sense either, as it would discourage combat.

Wolfgang: Why exactly did you take off his damage multiplier? He is the strongman after all (although I can understand 2x damage is pretty insane). His new tank benefits are pretty underwhelming. At most, he'll receive 25% damage mitigation. That's the same as Wigfrid currently has. I do like the idea of him gaining more sanity from food though. It may be small and probably unnecessary (most crockpot foods only grant 5 sanity anyway) but it's a nice little touch to his character.

WX-78: I don't think WX-78 should have to consume 20 gears to fully upgrade. He currently has to consume 15 gears to reach max stats, and that's already a huge burden on a team. Sure you could just ruins rush, but even then, you'll probably only have enough gears for a single WX-78 player anyway. Also, the overload changes are rather unnecessary. If multiple lightning strikes have the opposite effect on WX-78, then a Wickerbottom player could deliberately kill WX-78 with The End is Neigh. I'd say his overload mechanic is fine as is. Klei already nerfed it by giving it diminishing returns.

Wickerbottom: I don't really have anything to say about these changes, except I find them unnecessary. Also, why did you lower her max sanity from 250 to 220? That part seems really arbitrary. 

Woodie: Not much to say here. I agree that Woodie should gain sanity from chopping trees, or at least in Werebeaver form. Currently, his Werebeaver form is discouraged because of the large sanity drain. Klei gave him the benefit of gaining sanity from planting trees, but you can still use that benefit and never go Werebeaver. If he gains sanity from chopping in Werebeaver form, players will be encouraged to actually use it to chop trees. Again, the stat change of 150 hunger to 170 is really arbitrary.

Willow: If you're going to let her lighter regenerate durability, you might as well make it infinite. I don't think these changes make Willow any more appealing though. She still sounds rather lackluster. I'm surprised you didn't make larger changes. Willow seems to be the character most in need of an overhaul. (Again, why did you lower her hunger from 150 to 140?)

Webber: As most people have pointed out, there's no need to nerf his spider befriending perk, as his followers are very expendable. The hunger nerf from 175 to 140 doesn't make much sense. I always thought the logic behind Webber having a larger stomach despite only being a child was that he had both the stomach of a human child and a spider. (For those wondering how his befriending perk works, I believe he can befriend up to 3 spiders per meat as long as 3 spiders are in the vicinity. As far as I know, there is no cap to how many spiders he can befriend at any given time, but they won't follow him forever.)

Wendy: I don't really agree with these changes. I don't think Wendy needs any retooling at all. Wendy is among the most popular characters to play as because of how beginner-friendly she is, as she has Abigail to protect her. If you can only summon Abigail temporarily, then realistically, you're only going to summon her to fight a boss, or a horde of enemies. Even when fighting a Treeguard, I wouldn't summon Abigail. Why use 40 health to summon her when I can just kite the Treeguard and take no damage? Also, it's nice to Abigail around even when just taking on a single spider. Not having Abigail by your side takes away some of the charm when playing as Wendy. I don't think many Wendy mains would be too happy with these changes.

Maxwell: I'm not quite sure what you mean by these changes. Currently, Maxwell's puppets cost max sanity to summon, meaning he can only have so many followers out at once. Judging from the way you worded things, there is no cap to how many followers Maxwell can have, since they just drain sanity. You could constantly be at 0 sanity but have 100 puppets out, at which point it wouldn't matter that nightmare creatures are attacking you. 100 puppets is more than enough to make short work of a Terror Beak. I do agree that Maxwell should have more control over his puppets. However, one nice thing about Maxwell's puppets is that he doesn't need to have a tool in his inventory for his puppets to get to work (they already cost a tool to summon). The simplest workaround I can think of for Maxwell is to give him the ability to make his puppets active/passive. No one likes the Maxwell who brings his puppets that chop down all the tier 1 trees. (Again with the stat tweaks: why did you give Maxwell 5 more health and 10 less hunger?)

 

[ImDaMisterL]

Friendly reminder to play nice everyone. I know people generally don't like these kinds of threads, but I believe things can work out if everyone remains calm and on-topic, which I'm sure you guys can do

[Sinister_Fang]

Almost all of these completely change how the character works and how you play them. I don't want what happened to Woodie and Willow to happen to every other character. I think that subtle tweaks to buff some characters would go over a lot better then just completely reworking everyone.

[The Curator]

Apparently the general response is people actually prefer the balance to be broken, because, ugh. The entire reason why it is a crucial idea is because this game specifically touts and encourages itself as being an unforgiving, difficult experience.

There is no difficulty in Wigfrid and Wolfgang being able to solo major bosses, or Wickerbottom being able to auto-grow masses of food. Webber being able to start spider wars, so on. It is all blatant methods which devalue the challenge of the game, in a game that explicitly lauds itself as being a challenge. That is why the integrity of the difficulty is so important. So important that the developers massively scaled up numerous enemy strength levels in the game when Together was made to offset the multiplayer aspect.

And again, some rubbish about downplaying the blatant strengths of characters. Some, its fine as it is; even though it could still be improved but people can't be bothered with change. And some other fools who literally do not understand the purpose of the changes being made.

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Maxwell:  You've made Maxwell's puppets garbage for gathering, made maxwell himself worse at fighting, and the puppets remain garbage at fighting.  He's also worse at staying insane.  You can already banish his puppets easily.  You don't understand Max's mechanics and uses to realize how much worse off you're leaving him.  Also, it's "en masse" not "in mass"

 

Learn more about the game, learn from people who have rebalanced the characters before you, and better.

The unique strengths of Maxwell's new puppets allow them to be useful and even give him special benefits without making him too overpowered. All you do is look at the negatives of the change and completely ignore the positives and their entire purpose. But you are clearly already highly insecure to criticize such an arbitrary piece of spelling tripe for no reason. And the fact you still think Wigfrid isn't overpowered, she is fifty percent stronger then every other character but with no downsides. It is literally, so obvious. But regardless, get off your high-horse.

28 minutes ago, KoreanWaffles said:

Wendy: I don't really agree with these changes. I don't think Wendy needs any retooling at all. Wendy is among the most popular characters to play as because of how beginner-friendly she is, as she has Abigail to protect her. If you can only summon Abigail temporarily, then realistically, you're only going to summon her to fight a boss, or a horde of enemies. Even when fighting a Treeguard, I wouldn't summon Abigail. Why use 40 health to summon her when I can just kite the Treeguard and take no damage? Also, it's nice to Abigail around even when just taking on a single spider. Not having Abigail by your side takes away some of the charm when playing as Wendy. I don't think many Wendy mains would be too happy with these changes.

Maxwell: You could constantly be at 0 sanity but have 100 puppets out, at which point it wouldn't matter that nightmare creatures are attacking you. 100 puppets is more than enough to make short work of a Terror Beak.

 

Abigail is already exceptionally useless at boss fights, yet you criticize the new change makes her useless at boss fights. The new change gives her more general effectiveness in fighting a wide range of enemies instead of just being useful for fighting groups.

There is literally a line that states Maxwell has a puppet amount cap. Puppets already do not help you fight shadows, and a mechanic could be added which makes them vanish at zero sanity. You do not seem to have paid any attention to his change list.

1 hour ago, Sketched_Philo said:

I booted up the game to verify the first claim, and it seems like there isn't a cap for spidery minions(if there is, it is , certainly higher than 3).

...If the problem is that these people are excluding themselves from these threads...why do you say statements that only make it more likely that they'll exclude themselves? If these people have excluded themselves from these threads(as you said), is there a point to excluding them?  It seems counterproductive to me: I assumed you directed that at everyone in a "If you disagree, keep it to yourself." manner.

 

As stated, attempting to befriend another spider always seems to cause the original spiders to lose their befriending.

And again, the people are already excluding themselves. Cannot discourage that which already does not want to participate.

1 hour ago, PillsStealer said:

Your ideas on changing webber isn't great, at all.

The changes are based on the aforementioned phenomenon that attempting to befriend multiple spiders always seems to cause the previous to disengage from being allies. And thus, the changes are designed to improve this into being a more useful minion system that balances out his problems. If it is possible to amass a spider army in Together, have not only never seen it done before but cannot manage it personally either because of the mentioned

2 hours ago, Astroknot said:

25% bonus defense is totally pointless if you know how to kite making that perk "almost" useless.

Well you aren't going to dodge every single hit. But people insist that they always will and so defense is useless. Okay why do players wear any armor at all if kiting is so easy. Why does armor even exist then.

This repetitious empty counter is absurd. Defense is fundamental in every game with combat, yet in this single instance people suddenly start claiming defense isn't useful anymore because dodging exists. Dodging exists in every game, defense still is useful.

1 hour ago, AniMike said:

As always in these adjust the characters posts I always will disagree. Short and simple.

How constructive.

2 hours ago, StretchVanb said:

Listen bud.

You should visit a therapist or councilor, and learn how to rectify your profoundly abhorrent behavioral issues and conceit. As much ignorant arrogance as there is in some of these replies, none ever reached the level of melodramatic hateful witch-hunting that you do.

 

Not going to bother proof reading this, interest lost.

[Sicko Hog]

2 hours ago, The Curator said:

There is no difficulty in Wigfrid and Wolfgang being able to solo major bosses, or Wickerbottom being able to auto-grow masses of food. Webber being able to start spider wars, so on. It is all blatant methods which devalue the challenge of the game, in a game that explicitly lauds itself as being a challenge. That is why the integrity of the difficulty is so important. So important that the developers massively scaled up numerous enemy strength levels in the game when Together was made to offset the multiplayer aspect.

Your problem is you're expecting the game to be challenging after you know how the mechanics work.
Non-raid bosses aren't difficult, getting lots of food isn't difficult, farming spiders isn't difficult. Whenever you know how things work in this game, and you've had enough practice, the challenge is gone no matter what character you're playing.

[Toros]

13 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Apparently the general response is people actually prefer the balance to be broken, because, ugh. The entire reason why it is a crucial idea is because this game specifically touts and encourages itself as being an unforgiving, difficult experience.

There is no difficulty in Wigfrid and Wolfgang being able to solo major bosses, or Wickerbottom being able to auto-grow masses of food. Webber being able to start spider wars, so on. It is all blatant methods which devalue the challenge of the game, in a game that explicitly lauds itself as being a challenge. That is why the integrity of the difficulty is so important. So important that the developers massively scaled up numerous enemy strength levels in the game when Together was made to offset the multiplayer aspect.

And again, some rubbish about downplaying the blatant strengths of characters. Some, its fine as it is; even though it could still be improved but people can't be bothered with change. And some other fools who literally do not understand the purpose of the changes being made.

The unique strengths of Maxwell's new puppets allow them to be useful and even give him special benefits without making him too overpowered. All you do is look at the negatives of the change and completely ignore the positives and their entire purpose. But you are clearly already highly insecure to criticize such an arbitrary piece of spelling tripe for no reason. And the fact you still think Wigfrid isn't overpowered, she is fifty percent stronger then every other character but with no downsides. It is literally, so obvious. But regardless, get off your high-horse.

Abigail is already exceptionally useless at boss fights, yet you criticize the new change makes her useless at boss fights. The new change gives her more general effectiveness in fighting a wide range of enemies instead of just being useful for fighting groups.

There is literally a line that states Maxwell has a puppet amount cap. Puppets already do not help you fight shadows, and a mechanic could be added which makes them vanish at zero sanity. You do not seem to have paid any attention to his change list.

As stated, attempting to befriend another spider always seems to cause the original spiders to lose their befriending.

And again, the people are already excluding themselves. Cannot discourage that which already does not want to participate.

The changes are based on the aforementioned phenomenon that attempting to befriend multiple spiders always seems to cause the previous to disengage from being allies. And thus, the changes are designed to improve this into being a more useful minion system that balances out his problems. If it is possible to amass a spider army in Together, have not only never seen it done before but cannot manage it personally either because of the mentioned

Well you aren't going to dodge every single hit. But people insist that they always will and so defense is useless. Okay why do players wear any armor at all if kiting is so easy. Why does armor even exist then.

This repetitious empty counter is absurd. Defense is fundamental in every game with combat, yet in this single instance people suddenly start claiming defense isn't useful anymore because dodging exists. Dodging exists in every game, defense still is useful.

How constructive.

You should visit a therapist or councilor, and learn how to rectify your profoundly abhorrent behavioral issues and conceit. As much ignorant arrogance as there is in some of these replies, none ever reached the level of melodramatic hateful witch-hunting that you do.

 

Not going to bother proof reading this, interest lost.

It's pretty telling that you ignored most of the feedback I gave you to focus on a small correction in your phrasing.

 

Wigfrid is not a strong character.  Her being stronger than wilson is because Wilson is trash and barely better than wes and willow. Her offensive benefts are minor, her defensive benefits are forgettable and her passive benefits are vastly eclipsed by not being able to eat mushrooms and cactus flesh.

 

You seem pretty defensive and there's no reason to be.

[KoreanWaffles]

10 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Abigail is already exceptionally useless at boss fights, yet you criticize the new change makes her useless at boss fights. The new change gives her more general effectiveness in fighting a wide range of enemies instead of just being useful for fighting groups.

There is literally a line that states Maxwell has a puppet amount cap. Puppets already do not help you fight shadows, and a mechanic could be added which makes them vanish at zero sanity. You do not seem to have paid any attention to his change list.

In regards to the Wendy changes, I don't think there's any need to revamp Wendy is take on stronger foes like bosses. You already have characters like Wigfrid and Wolfgang who fit that purpose much better than Wendy does. I didn't mean to say your proposed changes made Wendy useless in boss fights, but rather commenting that making Abigail a temporary ally would be a bad idea, especially with the summoning costs. Having to decide when to summon Abigail would make Wendy less fun to play as. The Treeguard was an example showing how summoning Abigail is unappealing, even in a situation where she is intended to be summoned. 

 

I don't play too much Maxwell, and I completely overlooked the line where you mentioned the puppet cap. My bad.

Although, the puppet changes do seem like a large unnecessary nerf. With 4 puppets out, you can achieve 60-100% increased chopping or mining power, which isn't that great, especially when you can befriend pigs to help you chop trees. The puppets' dueling capabilities are now significantly weaker too (and they're already pretty bad). Currently, Maxwell's puppets deal 40 damage per swing. With two shadow duelists out, Maxwell will have more dps than your proposed changes. If the puppets' damage were to scale with Maxwell's damage, then even with a Dark Sword equipped, Maxwell's puppets will deal a mere 12.75 damage each (taking into account Maxwell's 0.75 damage multiplier and assuming the puppets are fully upgraded). This wouldn't necessarily net you 75% increased damage from your puppets either, as their kiting AI lowers their damage output considerably.

 

I'm still wondering why did you tweak the characters' stats like so. Removing 10 hunger still seems really arbitrary and serves no purpose in promoting the play-styles of characters such as Maxwell and Willow.

[Auth]

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

You should visit a therapist or councilor, and learn how to rectify your profoundly abhorrent behavioral issues and conceit. As much ignorant arrogance as there is in some of these replies, none ever reached the level of melodramatic hateful witch-hunting that you do.

Holy cow man, ouch. We try to be friendly on here, yknow?

[Nullum]

On 3/24/2017 at 11:36 PM, Asparagus said:

@The Curator, you seem to be getting a bit... heated. 

 

Oh yeah he is!!! 

( ͡º ͜ʖ ͡º)

Spoiler

Let's make these a meme for angry, heartless discussions where some persons are vexed that they'll bite of you.