Does Wes make sense in DST?

[Soto8969]

1 hour ago, Axehilt said:

It's not, in a single player game.

DST isn't a single player game.

wat? i did not undestood your statement....

[Axehilt]

1 hour ago, Soto8969 said:

wat? i did not undestood your statement....

In a singleplayer game it's fine to have an underpowered character because you're not hurting anybody.  (Though even there it's more interesting to control difficulty via difficulty options than by gimped characters.)

But in team-based multiplayer, it's definitely not fine to have an underpowered character because you're actually hurting your team.

[Soto8969]

26 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

In a singleplayer game it's fine to have an underpowered character because you're not hurting anybody.  (Though even there it's more interesting to control difficulty via difficulty options than by gimped characters.)

But in team-based multiplayer, it's definitely not fine to have an underpowered character because you're actually hurting your team.

Oh, ok.

[DarkXero]

The core idea here is: "All characters in a cooperative multiplayer game must contribute something to the team."

Which is what DST is after all. A survival game where players can choose to cooperate to survive.

 

The issue here is that Wes is the exception to this idea.

Some people dislike it, because that gets Wes hate (because you can pick something better), or because the idea should be a rule set in stone (after all, it's a cooperative game, it makes no sense to gimp your team just because).

Other people like it, because just like how Wes breaks the single player core idea of "upside with downside", he breaks the multiplayer idea of "team related upside with team related downside". And having Wes any other way would be a sacrilege against the identity of the character.

 

So this just ends up as a battle of opinions.

Balance 1 character out of 11 or destroy what Wes is all about?

And well, a lot of people here really like Wes.

 

2 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

But in team-based multiplayer, it's definitely not fine to have an underpowered character because you're actually hurting your team.

If by hurting my team, you mean, "you could pick something better", then you are hurting your team when:

- you pick Wickerbottom and there's already a Wickerbottom (you only need one to craft and read books)

- you pick Wigfrid and there's already a Wigfrid (you only need one for helmets and spears)

Actually, lets make it:

- you pick anybody else except Wolfgang

 

Because a Wolfgang with food (that you should be able to know how to get if you are actually bothering making tier lists) has both more damage and more movement speed compared to other characters, which saves you the most valuable resource of all: time. Beard hair, awful torches, a useless ghost, a gears drain, situational books, a wood provider, two weaklings that give situational useless shadows or a bunch of silk, just pale in comparison to some bunny hutches (or no hutches at all), some spider dens, and a single birdcage.

After all, I need none of those useless things: I just need food to survive, and the silk for clothes comes extra!

A thousand meatballs available during all seasons. And you can have this by the end of autumn.

And I don't have to keep Willow sane so she doesn't freeze.

And I don't have to help Wendy against high hp targets.

And I don't have to give WX-78 anything: not gears, not lightning.

And I can replace the book of horticulture with even more eggs. No Tam O' Shanter for Wickerbottom's sanity, more for me.

And I don't need 2000 chests or a mega base, Woodie and Maxwell can bug off.

Hounds waves? Smack them down.

Giants? Smack them down.

Anything else? Just hit it until it dies.

Need to go from point A to point B? Just leave everybody behind.

 

However, just because of this I don't go saying that all characters except Wolfgang don't make sense in DST.

 

I just take Wes for the exception that he is. He's the character a player uses for bragging rights.

He's not here to find a role in the metagame, he's here to suck and then carry his team.

[Axehilt]

1 hour ago, DarkXero said:

The core idea here is: "All characters in a cooperative multiplayer game must contribute something to the team."

Which is what DST is after all. A survival game where players can choose to cooperate to survive.

 

The issue here is that Wes is the exception to this idea.

Some people dislike it, because that gets Wes hate (because you can pick something better), or because the idea should be a rule set in stone (after all, it's a cooperative game, it makes no sense to gimp your team just because).

Other people like it, because just like how Wes breaks the single player core idea of "upside with downside", he breaks the multiplayer idea of "team related upside with team related downside". And having Wes any other way would be a sacrilege against the identity of the character.

 

So this just ends up as a battle of opinions.

Balance 1 character out of 11 or destroy what Wes is all about?

And well, a lot of people here really like Wes.

 

If by hurting my team, you mean, "you could pick something better", then you are hurting your team when:

- you pick Wickerbottom and there's already a Wickerbottom (you only need one to craft and read books)

- you pick Wigfrid and there's already a Wigfrid (you only need one for helmets and spears)

Actually, lets make it:

- you pick anybody else except Wolfgang

 

Because a Wolfgang with food (that you should be able to know how to get if you are actually bothering making tier lists) has both more damage and more movement speed compared to other characters, which saves you the most valuable resource of all: time. Beard hair, awful torches, a useless ghost, a gears drain, situational books, a wood provider, two weaklings that give situational useless shadows or a bunch of silk, just pale in comparison to some bunny hutches (or no hutches at all), some spider dens, and a single birdcage.

After all, I need none of those useless things: I just need food to survive, and the silk for clothes comes extra!

A thousand meatballs available during all seasons. And you can have this by the end of autumn.

And I don't have to keep Willow sane so she doesn't freeze.

And I don't have to help Wendy against high hp targets.

And I don't have to give WX-78 anything: not gears, not lightning.

And I can replace the book of horticulture with even more eggs. No Tam O' Shanter for Wickerbottom's sanity, more for me.

And I don't need 2000 chests or a mega base, Woodie and Maxwell can bug off.

Hounds waves? Smack them down.

Giants? Smack them down.

Anything else? Just hit it until it dies.

Need to go from point A to point B? Just leave everybody behind.

 

However, just because of this I don't go saying that all characters except Wolfgang don't make sense in DST.

 

I just take Wes for the exception that he is. He's the character a player uses for bragging rights.

He's not here to find a role in the metagame, he's here to suck and then carry his team.

Right, you're hurting your team by not choosing someone better.  That's the point.

It doesn't even matter to me whether a character works by helping the team (Wigfrid's crafted gear) or simply being a strong individual (Wolfgang's combat).  Whether you contribute to the team directly or indirectly is irrelevant.  It only matters that Wes is underpowered relative to everyone else.

It's strange that this is even a discussion in DST, since in any other game it's just basic common sense that things should be balanced.  If a class/character/faction is overpowered or underpowered, then it's only a matter of showing conclusively that the thing in question is unbalanced and when that's true everyone just agrees that the game would be better with better balance.

Balance creates interesting decisions in games, which are usually the root of fun gameplay ("a game is a series of interesting decisions" -Sid Meier (designer of Civilization)) 

[Nickolas2600]

Wes for me is welcomed. When I see a Wes 90% of the time the player is 10 times better than I am. They pick wes because they like him. If you dont like wes than play privately with friends who wont pick him. If you only want the best that would be boring you need a bit variety and a wes is ALWAYS welcomed on my team.

[Bebbit]

1 minute ago, Axehilt said:

Right, you're hurting your team by not choosing someone better.

Helping less isn't hurting your team, and who's to say you are helping less by playing Wes? Of course, Wilson is objectively better than him (statistically), but when there are more than enough resources to sustain either one of them, what difference does it make?

A semi-independent Wes can still survive, can still do damage, and can still feed himself and the team just as well as anyone else can when resource management and kiting strategies are employed. You're using more resources, sure, but there are still many more for everyone else because of how large DST's default world is.

A good Wes prioritizes his team and is willing to stay in adversity for the greater good of the group. That applies to all characters, but especially Wes because adversity is so much easier to come by. A good Wes may focus on contributing renewable resources to plant near the base and should be willing to journey far to fetch what the world has to offer, again more than others.

 

In conclusion, it's hard to help your team as Wes just like it's hard to survive as Wes, but in both situations it is completely possible to overcome your difficulties and persevere just like everyone else.

[Nickolas2600]

To be honest Wes isnt even that bad? Let me get this straight lower sanity but higher than webber. more damage than wendy more health than maxwell. A lower stomache which means nothing if you an okay player. No super amazing special power. The balloons are great decor. I say as long as the Wes CAN play wes than he should be allowed too. That doesn't mean I want unskilled players such as myself playing him.  

[Soto8969]

15 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

It only matters that Wes is underpowered relative to everyone else.

Thats the point of his existence.

 

15 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

and when that's true everyone just agrees that the game would be better with better balance.

But in here many people doesn't want any change, it is good the way Wes is.

16 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

Balance creates interesting decisions in games, which are usually the root of fun gameplay

If you are talking about a Multiplayer games you are right(Like DST). but not in every game needs "balance", for example: "Crypt of the NecroDancer" there are about 3 characters that are not even close to be balanced by the rest: Aria,Bolt, and Coda. oh, Binding of Isaac... The Lost....Blue Baby.... Lets not forget about Hotline Miami 2 Hardmode! 

[Bebbit]

Time to lighten the mood by not arguing.

Wes' balloons drain his sanity because of that F@#$ING SOUND. That's a fact.

Now I wait until nome corrects me with some hilarious reason that's way better than mine and gets swarmed with likes.

[DarkXero]

22 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

Right, you're hurting your team by not choosing someone better.  That's the point.

It doesn't even matter to me whether a character works by helping the team (Wigfrid's crafted gear) or simply being a strong individual (Wolfgang's combat).  Whether you contribute to the team directly or indirectly is irrelevant.  It only matters that Wes is underpowered relative to everyone else.

Everybody is underpowered relative to Wolfgang.

People still play those characters.

24 minutes ago, Axehilt said:

It's strange that this is even a discussion in DST, since in any other game it's just basic common sense that things should be balanced.  If a class/character/faction is overpowered or underpowered, then it's only a matter of showing conclusively that the thing in question is unbalanced and when that's true everyone just agrees that the game would be better with better balance.

Balance creates interesting decisions in games, which are usually the root of fun gameplay ("a game is a series of interesting decisions" -Sid Meier (designer of Civilization))

Balance is important, which is why Klei takes community feedback for the game.

We enjoy balanced content too!

However, we can also enjoy overcoming a challenge when the odds are stacked against us.

For another example of this, I can point to Dark Souls and the Soul Level 1 runs.

You don't have to do it, and you are gimped for summons and invasions, but you do it anyways, to show skill.

Of course, it's not for everyone.

[T4T3RGR3NAD3R]

On 5/8/2016 at 5:21 PM, Arlesienne said:

They inspire altruism in other players

I read this as autism

[Soto8969]

19 minutes ago, Bebbit said:

Time to lighten the mood by not arguing.

Wes' balloons drain his sanity because of that F@#$ING SOUND. That's a fact.

Now I wait until nome corrects me with some hilarious reason that's way better than mine and gets swarmed with likes.

@nome cannot come like that. you have to *clears throat* INVOKE HIM(Grammar intended).

First we need a sacrifice, then we need potato cups, then we need to make exactly 1 gnome with around 5-30 gnometes. and for the final part: We need to say "Backwards Message" backwards 3 times.

[ADinosaur]

It's been five pages and we still have the same argument of "Oh Wes can do everything everyone else can. Nothing wrong. Sure he may not have special abilities but he can sustain himself."

Please people! OP is trying to get Wes to have a benefit to the team, NOT A BLOODY MASSIVE BUFF TO WES! Just one simple benefit. Like balloons giving a sanity aura for other people, but insanity aura for Wes.

[VexTheHex]

@DarkXero, as much as the OP seems to exaggerate how much Wes hurts his team, I think you did the same in regards to Wolfgang. For Wolfgang to stay mighty to benefit from his perks, he'd be consuming a high amount of food. Add more Wolfgangs into the mix, and that's a lot of food to get Wolfgang's full benefits.

 

 I'm a tad defensive on him, as I started playing him quite a bit recently. And he isn't a common character on public servers either. Wolfgang has his own hurdles that can easily be killer to him. If you compare that to Wigfrid, who really has no major hurdles and can deal out consistent damage rather than situational. I think it could be argued Wigfrid could easily be the character that everybody "should" be. A lot less effort, for a smaller but still high reward. 

 

 But in the grand scheme of everything, any character loses their potential as you add more of the same character into a server. 

[AnonymousKoala]

3 hours ago, Soto8969 said:

Thats the point of his existence.

 

But in here many people doesn't want any change, it is good the way Wes is.

If you are talking about a Multiplayer games you are right(Like DST). but not in every game needs "balance", for example: "Crypt of the NecroDancer" there are about 3 characters that are not even close to be balanced by the rest: Aria,Bolt, and Coda. oh, Binding of Isaac... The Lost....Blue Baby.... Lets not forget about Hotline Miami 2 Hardmode! 

I'd compare Wes to Blue Baby if we're going on Isaac standards.

Lost is too good(Not the greatest, but post buff he's pretty good) and keeper...Even Wes kicks his butt.

 

1 hour ago, VexTheHex said:

@DarkXero, as much as the OP seems to exaggerate how much Wes hurts his team, I think you did the same in regards to Wolfgang. For Wolfgang to stay mighty to benefit from his perks, he'd be consuming a high amount of food. Add more Wolfgangs into the mix, and that's a lot of food to get Wolfgang's full benefits.

 

 I'm a tad defensive on him, as I started playing him quite a bit recently. And he isn't a common character on public servers either. Wolfgang has his own hurdles that can easily be killer to him. If you compare that to Wigfrid, who really has no major hurdles and can deal out consistent damage rather than situational. I think it could be argued Wigfrid could easily be the character that everybody "should" be. A lot less effort, for a smaller but still high reward. 

 

 But in the grand scheme of everything, any character loses their potential as you add more of the same character into a server. 

Thing is, Wolfgang, as much as I like both, is kinda better. Sure, he requires resources to do his extra damage, but when you can get that much hp, kill bosses in around 10 hits(aka, deal that insane amount of damage in these 10 hits), walk around faster, and have 3 states wit just 1 that you'd like to avoid...You're kind of better than the armor making Wigfrid who has slight damage decrease against her, and slight damage increase from her, as well as regains stats by killing.

 

1 hour ago, ADinosaur said:

Just one simple benefit. Like balloons giving a sanity aura for other people, but insanity aura for Wes.

I'd actually love this.

 

[DarkXero]

26 minutes ago, VexTheHex said:

as much as the OP seems to exaggerate how much Wes hurts his team, I think you did the same in regards to Wolfgang. For Wolfgang to stay mighty to benefit from his perks, he'd be consuming a high amount of food. Add more Wolfgangs into the mix, and that's a lot of food to get Wolfgang's full benefits.

In a team where the Wolfgang's know what they are doing, I think they can all manage just fine.

A koalefant gives 8 meat. 2 meat + 1 monster meat + 1 filler (berry/mushroom/fish/morsel/egg) gives you a meaty stew.

So that's 4 meaty stews per koalefant, plus trunk.

With a hunt cooldown of 1.2-1.5 days.

So you can aim to have 8 meaty stews for 2 days with two dedicated hunters.

Run away from ewecus or obliterate wargs in the way. But if you hunt as a pair, you can pummel the ewecus too.

If the other 4 guys want to contribute or hunt their own food, even better.

You got ponds, ponds in caves when it's winter. You got mushrooms both up and in caves for filler. You got spiders, tons of spiders.

You can even hammer all the pig houses along the way and bring them to base. 1 werepig = 2 meat and 1 pig skin.

And if you REALLY want to push it:

1 meat + 1 monster meat + 2 morsels/fish/froglegs/drumsticks = a meaty stew.

So you can get 8 meaty stews from a single koalefant if you kill some spiders, and put some rabbit traps or kill some frogs or fish some fish, or just transplant berry bushes to your base, pick the berries, and use them to lure gobblers and smack them. And, if your camp is near the decidious forest, go moleworm hunting. You can even massacre the birds with all the silk you are going to get.

If you decide do set up camp in a savanna, you will have beefalo nearby, and tons of rabbits.

With one Wolfgang dedicated to fishing and getting morsels, you should make enough.

That meat can also come from werepigs or tallbirds, or beefalo when you go get some hairs from them for winter.

Of course, all of this requires the Wolfgangs to have some coordination.

39 minutes ago, VexTheHex said:

I'm a tad defensive on him, as I started playing him quite a bit recently. And he isn't a common character on public servers either. Wolfgang has his own hurdles that can easily be killer to him. If you compare that to Wigfrid, who really has no major hurdles and can deal out consistent damage rather than situational. I think it could be argued Wigfrid could easily be the character that everybody "should" be. A lot less effort, for a smaller but still high reward.

Definitely.

If people want to win by holding F, then they can just pick Wigfrid, blast everything, and eat everything.

The thing is that you see Wolfgang does have hunger as a major hurdle, but Wigfrid doesn't.

All new people that start with Wigfrid starve with 99 berries on their inventory, and think that hunger is a major hurdle.

Until they learn better. It will be the same for you. At least that's how it happened for me.

 

If you really want to get a good impression on Wolfgang, I suggest you play singleplayer, where stuff has less hp than multiplayer.

All this being said, I don't play Wolfgang much, because he spoils me really hard. I enjoy him a lot.

[WildWesternWilson]

27 minutes ago, DarkXero said:

In a team where the Wolfgang's know what they are doing, I think they can all manage just fine.

A koalefant gives 8 meat. 2 meat + 1 monster meat + 1 filler (berry/mushroom/fish/morsel/egg) gives you a meaty stew.

So that's 4 meaty stews per koalefant, plus trunk.

With a hunt cooldown of 1.2-1.5 days.

So you can aim to have 8 meaty stews for 2 days with two dedicated hunters.

Run away from ewecus or obliterate wargs in the way. But if you hunt as a pair, you can pummel the ewecus too.

If the other 4 guys want to contribute or hunt their own food, even better.

You got ponds, ponds in caves when it's winter. You got mushrooms both up and in caves for filler. You got spiders, tons of spiders.

You can even hammer all the pig houses along the way and bring them to base. 1 werepig = 2 meat and 1 pig skin.

And if you REALLY want to push it:

1 meat + 1 monster meat + 2 morsels/fish/froglegs/drumsticks = a meaty stew.

So you can get 8 meaty stews from a single koalefant if you kill some spiders, and put some rabbit traps or kill some frogs or fish some fish, or just transplant berry bushes to your base, pick the berries, and use them to lure gobblers and smack them. And, if your camp is near the decidious forest, go moleworm hunting. You can even massacre the birds with all the silk you are going to get.

If you decide do set up camp in a savanna, you will have beefalo nearby, and tons of rabbits.

With one Wolfgang dedicated to fishing and getting morsels, you should make enough.

That meat can also come from werepigs or tallbirds, or beefalo when you go get some hairs from them for winter.

Of course, all of this requires the Wolfgangs to have some coordination.

Definitely.

If people want to win by holding F, then they can just pick Wigfrid, blast everything, and eat everything.

The thing is that you see Wolfgang does have hunger as a major hurdle, but Wigfrid doesn't.

All new people that start with Wigfrid starve with 99 berries on their inventory, and think that hunger is a major hurdle.

Until they learn better. It will be the same for you. At least that's how it happened for me.

 

If you really want to get a good impression on Wolfgang, I suggest you play singleplayer, where stuff has less hp than multiplayer.

All this being said, I don't play Wolfgang much, because he spoils me really hard. I enjoy him a lot.

Wolfgang is amazing once you have food all sorted, because man.

'I WILL PUNCH YOU!'

[PanAzej]

People are still arguing over this?

You don't need super powers to pick some berry bushes or cook some food for the team before you all go to kill MacTusk. Or hunt Koalefants or even kill a Bearger. All you need is knowledge about stuff.

Wes is for advanced players. Don't pick him if you're bad at the game. Problem solved.

 

"But why not give him something special for the team, at least?"

Sure, he could just gimp himself, and not other players... But meh, I mean, if you're so certain that Wes is useless, go and pick a 'superior' character and I'll play Wes. You can be sure I won't be standing there being useless, and I don't wanna brag but I might even do better than you. While being this gimped little mime, yes.

[Kuirem]

I'm late on the topic but since it still alive let me make a contribution.

I see people arguing that Wes is useless for the team, others says that he is not completely and the last say that his balloon are good for decor. You know what I do from all these arguments? I take them and throw them in the birdcage for Eggs.

People play Video Game to have fun. For TheHalcyonOne fun means having a super optimized survival team with each survivor bringing a new skill on the table. Is he wrong? Of course not it is his own definition. But for other playing as Wolfgang is boring as heck as he can just crush through any difficulty (switch Wolfgang for Wicker/WX/Maxwell/Whoever) and they want some challenge and will play with a 10-Wes team because why not?

A challenging character makes as much sense in multiplayer that it does in soloplayer. There is no need for a perfect balance between character as long as each one bring something on the table and I am not speaking about survival but about gameplay. Wes is here to provide some challenge and he is fine as is, stop trying to kill that and add him "usefulness".

[or1239]

Can we all just take a  deep breath and settle a few points so we won't just repeat the same thing over and over, i feel like there's more to cover on this topic but at this rate this thread is just going to get locked.

lets all agree that Wes should stay the same, and he is can be useful just as much if not more then other character and players. Ok?

now can we talk about this thing?

8 hours ago, DarkXero said:

The core idea here is: "All characters in a cooperative multiplayer game must contribute something to the team."

Which is what DST is after all. A survival game where players can choose to cooperate to survive.

The issue here is that Wes is the exception to this idea.

Some people dislike it, because that gets Wes hate (because you can pick something better), or because the idea should be a rule set in stone (after all, it's a cooperative game, it makes no sense to gimp your team just because).

Other people like it, because just like how Wes breaks the single player core idea of "upside with downside", he breaks the multiplayer idea of "team related upside with team related downside". And having Wes any other way would be a sacrilege against the identity of the character.

 

So this just ends up as a battle of opinions.

Balance 1 character out of 11 or destroy what Wes is all about?

And well, a lot of people here really like Wes.

 

 

Why is Wes an exception to this idea?

  My problem with him is that it seems like he can't do anything past the basics to support other players, which everyone can already do, so i get that not having a power is basically his thing, he doesn't follow the rules he has nothing and that's his thing.

but i still don't understand why he can't have anything for other players,  why is having Wes support his team with something special sacrilege against his identity? is it because he get to be  useful in a unique way? but he can already do such a thing thanks to his balloons, getting nightmare fuel easily and distract enemies with balloons, doesn't this mean his identity is already broken?

i ain't saying balance him, just saying give him something unique that is beyond the basic materials to help players.

that's why when someone picks wes i don't like it, i know that if that player picked anyone else he could have helped me in some unique way, but with Wes that player is having his own challenge seemingly entirely out of my world, he can be the best player in the world and help me go through hundred of days easily  with no problems, but past food/resources and hitting enemies with me he doesn't have a combo with my character he doesn't bring an interesting dynamic to me , hes just a normal guy with a handicap, and its perfectly fine for him and if people don't like Wes they shouldn't pick him but would it really break his entire identity if lets say his balloon raised my sanity?

if someone picks Wes its out of my control,so making every character at least bland in well while keeping their original identity could  make everyone happy...right?

5 minutes ago, Kuirem said:

 

A challenging character makes as much sense in multiplayer that it does in soloplayer. There is no need for a perfect balance between character as long as each one bring something on the table and I am not speaking about survival but about gameplay. Wes is here to provide some challenge and he is fine as is, stop trying to kill that and add him "usefulness".

What exactly do you mean about gameplay and not survival? 

[Kuirem]

12 minutes ago, or1239 said:

What exactly do you mean about gameplay and not survival? 

OP said that Wes does not make sense because Wes brings nothing to help with survival. It is true that he has trouble staying alive but as I said as long as he brings something something original in the game (i.e. an original gameplay) it is fine. And what he brings is challenge.

[Asparagus]

This still is going on eh?

[t0panka]

Everyone crazy about Wes being bad or not usefull and yet noone mentions how Willow is even worse. I never ever used her lighter and it is usefull only before you pick two twigs and grass. I never even seen someone use it either. She is so "bad and not usefull" that i would take rather half a Wes to replace her. And what about Wilson? He is ok because he has basic dmg on top of Wes?

Not to mention that if Klei changes anything about Wes there will be riot like noone seen before!

This is not "normal game with balance" at all so stop acting like it is. All of us have 64858262 characters to pick from so let Wes be like he is. Also proper Wes players can be usefull more that 95% DST players so it is not about him but about players .)

[Mikeadatrix]

Everyone's beating around the bush here so I'm say it like it is.

Wes is "bad"... Okay? Not bad as in" Oh my god get outta the server you trash!"

Bad as in his stats are not great, HOWEVER a great DS player can harness his bad stats and make him a beast.

Every character brings something to the table, including Wes. Wilson's beard (and hidden stat of being the best 'boxer' in all the lands), Willows Lighter and Bear, Maxxy's book and dapper-ness, and Wes's high output for extreme skill if used by the right guy.