discussion Is "Together" Klei's great Misstep?

[Mobbstar]

Before anything else, let's get some things set in stone: Klei is a company with the main intention of making profit and you can't blame them for that. I do not have more input on Klei's finances than most people reading this. Arguing for either side without having both "games" is possible, but not very convincing. I have played DS base, DS RoG and DST before, but not DS SW.

I am sorry for any eye injury caused by the terrible structure of the following text or the fact that I call DLCs gamemodes. No refunds.

 

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Don't Starve was originally not designed for multiplayer modes, but as the game got bigger and more popular, Klei figured it to be possible to make it multiplayer-capable. This meant a different code foundation was needed, and the easiest approach to that was making a stand-alone version for multiplayer.

From a business perspective, choosing this approach makes perfect sense: Give out the new game to owners of the old one to make them happy and cheerful and spread the word, whilst potentially selling two games to any new users.

However, this "new game" has "local offline servers" (alias singleplayer) in it, making the old game (DS) redundant. Basically, DST has all the features DS has, and more, and spiffier UI as well. It's plain better.

No. DST does not have everything DS has, nor vice versa. This is the problem:

1) Content

DST and DS are similiar, but not identical games. I am certain Klei doesn't want to make DST-exclusive content which would work in DS without many changes, but that is the case. DST has received a lot of improvements: improved modding API, eight-faced walls, farm rotation, sleek new UI elements and tweaks, etc.; all of which could be brought to DS relatively easily.

Synchronising code through-out all gamemodes would likely make future changes and additions easier too. It's less intense on human resources if the wheel can be copy-pasted instead of re-invented.

Sure, it could break some mods to make such code changes, but keep #2 in mind. But either way, there's more important things to work on than porting features back, it seems. Except for Shipwrecked, porting things there doesn't seem to be a problem. More on that topic at #3. Yeah I kinda forgot about this paragraph and decided to leave it as-is.

2) Mods

Mods are a huge part of the fun with Don't Starve. Many mods try to make the game more interesting for new players, others present late-game challenges, others just improve some mechanics a bit.

Making mods for DST is different from DS mods (regardless of DLCs). Porting them to DST is even harder.

It is possible to work around all the differences using a handy gamemode check, but learning when and how to place them costs time, confuses new modders, makes code more complicated and potentially causes redundant code sections (which in turn can lead to inconsistency). Making a different mod version for DS and DST is this whole post in a nutshell, so don't even think about it.

Porting some game changes back could break certain mods, but the above mentioned reasons are worse in my opinion. Besides, it is going to be ported back sooner or later anways, so you may as well rip the bandage right off.

For instance, making a function "AddRecipe()" that simply links to "Recipe()" is a one-minute-investment which would allow modders to cut one check. In this case, leaving "Recipe()" publicly accessible means that mods won't even break after the update. Yet, this tiny change has not occured so far. Somebody just told me on Steam: "I wish Klei would actually try make modding their game more friendly.. cause damn its annoying. [...] You said its easy?  Do you realize that it is actually almost easier for me to create a clone of DST via Unity than make a custom weapon and animation for it." Sick burn.

3) Shipwrecked

As said in #1, SW received some polish from DST. Despite that, DS base and RoG are still lacking it. Why? Putting mods aside, since we covered that topic in #2 already, I see no reason to keep rotated walls SW-exclusive. All the coding has been adjusted for DS already, the SW DLC doesn't overhaul prefab scripts (to my knowledge), so why not introduce the changes to DS base?

The reasons I reckon why SW may have received the ports in advance are: 1. It's actively being developed, updates are being pushed anyways. I sincerely hope this excuse isn't actually used. 2. Players and modders alike expect this DLC's content to change here and there and to differ from the base game, making it easier to introduce the new things to them. 3. Work distribution might be handled terribly at Klei office. Nobody would feel responsible for base DS. It seems SW remained standalone after all...

 

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I know Klei values their awesome fanbase, but by splitting Don't Starve like this, they have split their fans unlike a truly seperate game could. Some tag along from RoG to DST to SW, others stay where they are, be it because of their mods or disinterest or insufficient funds. Effectively seperate groups that grow socially different, connected mostly by the few people who "derail" and go "off-topic" to mention the other gamemodes. Hopefully Klei can find a way to bring their fans and their game back together without having to give out more free content.

Klei Devs, you're awesome and you've made awesome games, you have connected people from all around the world and built a decent community. Make sure to keep things together!

Wait, you're still reading? Great! Leave a reply stating your opinion on whether or not the fanbase is split and what Don't Starve gamemodes you have/like! Please correct me wherever you can, I'm not perfect by a long shot and I know it.

P.S.: I will not cover skins at all, refer to this topic instead: How Skins Could've Been "Innocent" and Trade Inn Discussion

I dare to predict that everybody will flame me for this post and yet miraculously Klei will push an update shortly after, just like it was with the tidy-up that killed WXP support.

[Asparagus]

1 hour ago, Mobbstar said:

Please correct me wherever you can, I'm not perfect by a long shot and I know it.

1 hour ago, Mobbstar said:

updates are being pushes anyways.

maybe "pushed"?

1 hour ago, Mobbstar said:

Wait, you're still reading? Great! Leave a reply stating your opinion on whether or not the fanbase is split and what Don't Starve gamemodes you have/like!

In a way, yes, I do feel the fan base is split between DS and DST since you can get DST separate from DS vice versa...

• DS is actually quite a challenge and takes dedication to play because of the Perma-death factor (which rocked my world when I first played it) and really builds your resolve to get better. Dying multiple times and learn, get better, and thrive. And how the caves and ruins were introduced and implemented made it more awesome... then came RoG which greatly added more excitement and "difficulties" to it further honing your skills... the puzzles that brought out everyone and their deduction skills, though at the time, I hadn't even made a forum account but liked to read through them... that feeling from the base game is what made me come here and I love every minute of it...
• DST... I remember someone stating that people should first play DS first before attempting DST... I love seeing people get attracted to the game and it's multi-player aspect... but seeing them frustrated and "grieving" servers... because they don't know how to play it yet... that made me "sad" a bit... if it weren't the sound of my voice and how unreasonable it sounded, I would have liked it if you don't get to play DST until you've actually lasted about 500 days in DS... but over time, I learned that that would be unfair...

The art threads are still united as their art won't be affected if the game is single player or multi-player... they've been doing comics and fan art about the puppets/characters/survivors intermingling... 

I do have to admit, I spent most of my time back then in Single Player but since I came to the forums, the majority of my posts have been in the DST forums... I don't know why though... maybe because most of my ideas have already been stated by other people in DS and DST was new...

...

Silly me wants to refer to SU "Do it for Her/Him + Stronger than you" music because I want to hint at something in the lyrics of the song related to this over all topic while trying to act silly and passive... heh...

[leonseye]

I think Together breathed new life into a game that I had shelved after years of playing.

Not only that, it brought new players to the game who wouldn't have tried it otherwise, since now they either have a friend who can play alongside them to help guide them or just have somebody to socialize and share the hilarious mishaps w/.

There is still the single player DS for those who may not like DST, though from what I can tell, most people enjoy both.

I think that's telling.

[Blitzhin]

Together was great at the start. I had a couple friends that played DS before DST that were also excited about it. We got a few more people to play and it was initially fun. After playing +70 hours we stopped because it lacked content initially. They started integrating RoG and then we thought we'd wait for caves. Now caves are in and none of my firends are that interested in DST anymore, none really play DS. DST has already lost its value for my friends...And because I have no one to play with DST has lost its value for me.

I'm not that upset. DST isn't too practical of a game as it takes many hours of play to even have a half-decent world. Trying to organize people to play for hours at a time to build up a world is difficult, let alone trying to organize weekly so we can progress (it's something like 16-17 hours for day 50 I think). On top of that it's nearly pointless to try a public server. Spend a fewhours building a world and someone will come and loot your base leaving you with no food or items..

I prefer DS over DST so it's not too upsetting that DST is over for me. I love DS RoG. The amount of content in RoG is amazing. The end game is so varied, there is so much to do. Plus, many of the characters force you to play specifically different ways forcing you to try new strategies. I've spent so many hours on RoG and I'm still planning on playing hundreds more.

My thoughts on SW so far is that it could be great. I've been having fun with it. It started out with just trying to beat the new seasons, but now I'm waiting for bosses and some kind of end game to it. I'm really looking forward to it, just hoping it's finished form is half as good as RoG.

I think that DST was good for the game. Lots of people enjoy multiplayer experiences. Even though I don't really play it, I think it is done well. As a company Klei needed to do something more with DS. It would have been a bad move to do nothing, but instead they expanded the base game by adding multiplayer and then added new DLC. I'm happy with it, though I hope they finish SW strong...

Keep up the good work Klei

Just my thoughts...

[imsomony]

I can't really speak from a modding/coding perspective, so I'll just speak as a player.

I do feel like the fan base is split a bit, yes. The way it seems to me, the people who were around before DST was a thing can take it or leave it - they enjoy all things Don't Starve related, and find their groove in various aspects of each game. Meanwhile, newer players (introduced to all things Don't Starve due to DST being released) seem to enjoy DST more.

Personally, I enjoy DS more than DST. I still play DS (RoG) even after all these years, it's my favorite Don't Starve experience. My primary excitement about DST wasn't about it being this open free-for-all among the gaming community, or even getting new/changed content, it was for me and my partner to be able to play our favorite game together. That's what we've been talking about since we discovered DS in 2013, and now we have it. I very, very rarely host public servers (to be honest, usually I'm drunk and am like "screw it, let in the noobs!". And I very rarely play on someone else's public server (once again, "screw it! This world will be gone for me tomorrow anyway, maybe I can help them get built up").

[Moon64]

I disagree with a lot of things in the first post.

DS and DST are separate games with seperate mechanics and balance. I'm happy with this. You don't want to apply blanket updates for both DS and DST because they're different games.

I also disagree that mods are a huge part of the fun in Don't Starve. The majority of the mods are game breaking and turn the game more into a cakewalk than it already is.

I think the additions of SW and DST give the game a lot more shelf life. Why play the original game if DST is the exact same?

 

 

[Mobbstar]

7 minutes ago, Moon64 said:

DS and DST are separate games with seperate mechanics and balance.

8 minutes ago, Moon64 said:

Why play the original game if DST is the exact same?

That's quite a contradiction. Lucky you, Phoenix Wright isn't around!

[PanAzej]

If not for DST I would never pick up DS.

My friend gave to me one copy. That's how I got into it. I was kind of annoyed that the game doesn't tell you anything, even controls are kind of weird (I thought you should only use mouse, since that's how you start interacting, then I learned that 'F' lets you attack automatically, but oh boy 'Ctrl+F' is so much better for targetting). But good for us, there were mods. The one for example that teaches you crockpot recipes or tells you how much damage/uses a tool/weapon has.

I learned everything about the game... but most of it I got from the wiki and etc. That's the thing I don't like about games. Yes, there's stuff that you discover and that's fine, but I like to know what the heck I am doing. DS doesn't tell you anything. Okay, enough of that.

1) Did it split the community? Probably, but is that a bad thing? Some people like playing with friends, others like to play by themselves. Yes, you can play DST as singleplayer experience. But it's still a beta, and no caves unless you can host a dedicated server. I can't (and it's not like I can't because I couldn't configure it or something, I just don't have access to the router, which is shared between everybody in my neighbourhood).

2) Yeah, if Shipwrecked wasn't a thing and you wouldn't port my mod I wouldn't do it myself  I learned about differences between modding for both games, though. It's still a pain to make two versions.

3) I wonder what Through The Ages will bring. Will it make DST more of 'its own thing' from standard DS? I can tell you right now that when SW will be finished there's going to be a big petition or something to port it to DST. Improvements can be ported from DST to the base game, and I can't see why that shouldn't be done.

1. Does DST harm the community more than it enriches it?

More players is always a good thing. There's always going to be griefers in multiplayer games, and there's always some raging elitists in single.

2. Does Klei still benefit from DST in about 10 years after announcement?

I think they should go the 'TF2 route' and make it possible to buy things like taunts and clothes. They would get money and could expand the game even further. But that's just my little idea.

Would they benefit from it in 10 years from now if it's going to be like how it is now? I kinda doubt it.

3. What gamemode do you prefer?

Since I played lots of RoG and DST which is basically RoG but multiplayer, I prefer SW right now. It's fresh and has big content updates from time to time. That keeps the game interesting.

[Hezel]

40 minutes ago, Moon64 said:

I also disagree that mods are a huge part of the fun in Don't Starve. The majority of the mods are game breaking and turn the game more into a cakewalk than it already is.

Seconding this.

The vast majority of mods aren't intended to make the game more interesting. When you look at the workshop, in no time you'll be able to find craftable rare items (Krampus sack, gears for instance), broken characters that have incredible passive damage multipliers, can see in the dark, don't require eating or taking care of their sanity, can walk 5 times as fast, etc. Other mods just remove game functionalities because people don't know how to deal with issues in the game; infinite clothing and item durability aren't what's lacking on the workshop either.

This thing with mods is that the game being in Lua makes it that anybody can pick up modding tools and have their try at making content; but that doesn't mean theirs is nearly as good as what Klei provides us with. 

I have to say I strongly dislike this attitude : downloading an intricate game like DST is and instantly looking to improve it with unneed "ugrades". One thing leading to another, DS games have very a steep learning curve, but Klei's marketting goal seems to remain adding content to play with for newer players; which doesn't add up somewhere down the line. In other words : The game is meant for everyone to play, but is hard to really get into without a significant time investement. Which brings us to mods like the ones I mentioned above.

Mods are for me a very mediocre source of replayability, contrarily to games like Minecraft where is gase game is argually lackluster to begin with, on top of being harder to mod. Which helps promote better quality mods overall.

[leonseye]

There's so much mod hate in this thread.  :c

Looking at my mod list, it's pretty much things to either make the game harder or more interesting, or simply to expose what's actually going on (health info, wormhole marks, mini map, geometric placement, gesture wheel, ice fling range check, etc).  Come to think of it, the vast majority of my mods seem to be UI tweaks for info, lol.

We crank up spiders, hounds, and merms so that no matter where you go, there's always some form of conflict to at least be aware of.

And that's pretty much it; no infinite durability, no infinite clothes, no craftable rare items, although we do have clockworks that respawn so you have to defeat them if you want more gears in the future.

I guess it can be argued that having more information available makes the game easier, though.

[Hezel]

4 minutes ago, leonseye said:

There's so much mod hate in this thread.  :c

Blind hate =/= constructive arguments. It's ok to dislike things if you have reasons (and you should in order to strive for improvement)

[Moon64]

23 minutes ago, leonseye said:

There's so much mod hate in this thread.  :c

Looking at my mod list, it's pretty much things to either make the game harder or more interesting, or simply to expose what's actually going on (health info, wormhole marks, mini map, geometric placement, gesture wheel, ice fling range check, etc).  Come to think of it, the vast majority of my mods seem to be UI tweaks for info, lol.

We crank up spiders, hounds, and merms so that no matter where you go, there's always some form of conflict to at least be aware of.

And that's pretty much it; no infinite durability, no infinite clothes, no craftable rare items, although we do have clockworks that respawn so you have to defeat them if you want more gears in the future.

I guess it can be argued that having more information available makes the game easier, though.

Instead of using a mod to mark your wormholes, mark them with items or items.

Instead of using ice flingomatic check, have a prebuild flingomatic.

Instead of respawning clockworks, since DS:SW is so balanced with new clockworks showing up everyday with fresh gears, farm tumbleweeds, raid the ruins, start using lureplants in place of flingomatics for smouldering.

I don't think we should know the health of mobs nor our naughtiness level or temperature. I would definitely argue that thelse stats make the game easier.

More often than not, you can actually use theae lot of these to your advantage over not. More mobs means more resources. Turn then into farms or use them for defense.

 

 

[leonseye]

17 minutes ago, Moon64 said:

Instead of using a mod to mark your wormholes, mark them with items or items.

Instead of using ice flingomatic check, have a prebuild flingomatic.

Instead of respawning clockworks, since DS:SW is so balanced with new clockworks showing up everyday with fresh gears, farm tumbleweeds, raid the ruins, start using lureplants in place of flingomatics for smouldering.

I don't think we should know the health of mobs nor our naughtiness level or temperature. I would definitely argue that thelse stats make the game easier.

More often than not, you can actually use theae lot of these to your advantage over not. More mobs means more resources. Turn then into farms or use them for defense.

 

 

Oh, I did all of this and more for years, believe me. : )

Also, I don't play SW as I mostly play DST w/ my fiance now.

I could also do all of my math out by hand when I'm calculating things at home, I certainly have the skills to do so, but it does not really make my life a better experience for having done it.  I view these mods in the same exact way.

To each their own, I suppose.

[Snowhusky5]

59 minutes ago, PanAzej said:

But it's still a beta, and no caves unless you can host a dedicated server. I can't (and it's not like I can't because I couldn't configure it or something, I just don't have access to the router, which is shared between everybody in my neighbourhood).

I have a similar situation (I'm living at university atm), and I can still host a dedicated server without port forwarding that people can join, so maybe try it out if you haven't already; initially, I assumed the same thing as you (and tried using hamachi, which turned out to be unneeded), but it seems that dedicated servers do actually auto-port forward now, so idk.

I would say that DST did more to attract new players than it did splitting the community. My only problem with DST is that it is hard for new players to learn (unless they have an experienced friend willing to help them), much harder than singleplayer for various reasons, unless you have experience with singleplayer DS already (or experience with rogueli(k/t)es in general like me). 

I would guess that if DST was released as an expansion for the base game, like RoG or SW are, people wouldn't be as happy about it (I have to BUY an addon for multiplayer?!?!) and it wouldn't be as popular (addon vs self-contained game). Also, though it might be good for compatibility and consistency in the long run, it would take far longer to create than it already did, since the devs would have to combine singleplayer code and multiplayer code much more closely than they already had to.

About mods, I play the game to have fun. Usually, that involves more simple conveniences rather than actually making the game significantly easier (challenge is part of the fun with roguelites), such as wormhole markers, flingo ranges, etc. Farming tumblegears for 5 days is not fun or particularly challenging, which is why I use the respawnable clockworks mod, even if it makes the game slightly easier.

[WillowCrocker]

I played DST before I played the original and if you want to know, it's the ability to be able to play with others that makes it so much fun. I agree with Husky though: a new player should definitely explore the original DS and see what's best for them before delving into a DST session. Y'know, learn who's their best character, what works for them, that kind of thing.

[RalphKastro]

Really interesting read. Just wanna point out, Mobbstar(how do you mention people in the new forums) that you're inevitably getting some defensive bias in your answers due to this being in the the DST subforum(and also because your thread name is a bit too kotaku).

Although my interest in don't starve has been waning for a while(mostly due to time, but also, I have either the old game with 300 hours in it, or the new one that is lacking the polish. And there's also shipwrecked, but I think I'll just wait for release and get the full product this time.) I've found it slightly worrying when it was announced there would be a third don't starve, developed in paralel with together. It appeared as if Klei wanted to split the community like the bacteria in my lungs. I know each forum is just a few clicks away, but the community doesn't form just around the forums, but also around the game they talk about, and however small the differences between the 2/3 modes are, they still create a wholly different feel to interacting about it.

vanilla Don't Starve itself is in a state that even I with my hate of Summer, am not willing to play anymore compared to DST singleplayer, due to so many new features that enrich even the lonely experience.

 

Also, I liked your XirmiX tag.

[ImDaMisterL]

32 minutes ago, RalphKastro said:

(how do you mention people in the new forums)

*jumps through window*

Just put a "@" and then write the person's name. A list with users will appear, click on the one you want to tag, @RalphKastro.

*smoke-bombs away*

[RalphKastro]

thanks Mister Almost-Unofficial-Official-Moderator-L  @ImDaMisterL

[LadyD]

I have been around since very early days of DS and was one of those who often spoke in opposition to DST in the first place. I saw no reason to take a perfectly good game and make it multiplayer. Also Klei said they weren't going to do it and since I am a moderator I was part of the effort to keep that multiplayer chanting calm. Only that chant just kept going. People wanted multiplayer- they wanted it a lot and Klei listened. So DST was born. Like most babies there was growing pains, birthing blues etc. I was not sure what to make of this interloper. This multiplayer that had invaded my DS world. Only it wasn't DS. It was sort of but not really. Its another game, its another way of playing and exploring a world. Its a sibling- same genetic make up but different. 

Thus I accepted DST for what it was, another way of enjoying the DS verse. Its not the same, it will never be the same and there will always be those that prefer DS over DST and vice versa. Thats okay. I don't think it divided the community as much as I thought it would, it added to the community by allowing us to play with each other and our friends. It bought in more people and bought us closer together. Now we weren't just telling each other about our games. We got to share them. It enriched the DS world and this is coming from someone who originally thought it would ruin it. 

Then there is Shipwrecked. Yet again Klei has surprised me. Its like a whole new game. Its got DS aspects but its so different. New seasons, new items, new structures and new game play. Its another sibling. So I see it as a third game. So now there is DS, DST and SW. All demanding different skill sets, different game play and different tactics. They have added to verse and I like them for it. Klei has been clever in how they have bought these to us. Keeping aspects that are familiar whilst still giving new content. 

Mods- they are good and bad but the best part about them. Its your choice which ones you have and use. Its amazing that the community can bring us these game altering little add ons. Its kind of awesome that people can just add to the game like that, the community has all these little tid bids that they made. Yes sometimes they alter the game to the point of making it easy but sometimes you want a cake walk so you can see things in the game otherwise you would have missed since you were too busy surviving. I love mods even though I don't really use them. I just like that the players can change the game in so many ways with them. 

TL;DR- DS, DST and SW are siblings- same parents but each different in their own way and good in their own right. Mods are kinda cool, giving the player choice of experience.