To anyone who says "Wonkey" is a punishment, and doesn't deserve a skill tree, I must ask,

[chirsg]

Punishment for what, exactly?

Let's discuss this

[Guille6785]

having fun

[salty_cookie]

7 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

having fun

having fun is illegal

[Bird Up]

Wonkey was created to make Wes stronger

[Mike23Ua]

I think it might would be a bit complex to actually add a skill tree to Wonkey due to Wonkey not being an actual playable character, when you “Wonkey” your still whoever you were prior to Wonking Out, so your actual skill tree would be them.

Which would make things WAY complicated when earning insight points.

I “Wish” Wonkey was an actual unlockable playable character, but well.. I never get what I wish for for Christmas.  

[goatt]

1 hour ago, chirsg said:

Punishment for what

If accursed trinkets are accumulated unintentionally, it's a punishment for that.

Punishment can be taken advantage of, just like an harmful boss can be taken advantage of in some scenarioes. But it doesn't change its nature of being a curse or punishment thematically.

[BezKa]

I want Wonkey to have a skill tree so everyone can see what a joke skill trees are even more clearly

[chirsg]

58 minutes ago, goatt said:

If accursed trinkets are accumulated unintentionally, it's a punishment for that.

Punishment can be taken advantage of, just like an harmful boss can be taken advantage of in some scenarioes. But it doesn't change its nature of being a curse or punishment thematically.

Punishment and curse aren't things that are interchangeable, I don't believe. If you are on the monkey island, you're getting mobbed by 20 monkeys who aim to steal your inventory. Defending yourself and being "punished" isn't the right term. You're being cursed. Apparently in that situation, you must hover off shore and set ablaze all the huts with a fire staff. 

And a curse can be something which you can exploit, as many popular media instances suggest and it's similar in this game. Strengthens Wes, makes wurt able to trade with pig king and dying in a place to have another victim get afflicted. 

I argue that in a perfect scenario, monkey should get a skill tree because to say it's a punishment is inappropriate. Especially in a pirate raid. It's kill or be killed and being punished for simply doing what the situation demands of you, even in the most optimal scenario shouldn't be defined as a punishment. 

 

 

[Theukon-dos]

It's a punishment for killing Monkey raiders.

Of course, if you don't kill them you're punished for it by having your items stolen.

And then you're punished for not killing the monkeys anyways because if you don't get the map and find the chest, then items they steal start getting deleted.

And you're also punished for using sails because they destroy those for some reason???

You also get punished for bad world gen because you might get the moon quey within raiding range of Pearl or Crab king. So have fun with that.

Oh and lets not forget that there's no actual way to find the Moon Quey other than the world's worst game of hot potato. So you're also punished for not having the patience of a saint and/or amazing luck.

So maybe at the end of the day it's just easier to say that you're getting punished for sailing.

 

Look, I've given Planar, Rifts, and skill trees a LOT of sh** over the last few months. But Monkey Raids? Those things are a thousand times worse than all of those combined. It's honestly insulting how bad they are. Like damn Klei, how did you bung that up so bad?

[goatt]

4 minutes ago, chirsg said:

If you are on the monkey island, you're getting mobbed by 20 monkeys who aim to steal your inventory. Defending yourself and being "punished" isn't the right term.

Punishment and curse aren't things that are interchangeable

You get curse for killing monkeys, and you are stuck with the curse despite its unpleasant punishment, namely, losing 1 or more slots.

To say the least, the accurse trinkets themselves are punishment.

Then logically, and thematically, some small trinkets punishment leads to even bigger punishment, which is Wonkey.

Wonkey, outside the context of Moon Quay, if looked at by its own, isn't necessary a punishment character. It would be just a weak character.

But if put in the context of Moon Quay arc and mechanism, it is a punishment.

In addition, from character design perspective, Wonkey is a much weaker version of Wilbur, which self-evidently means Wonkey is lesser than a regular character.

 

Then let's look at Wonkey's stats

power: faster running speed, friends with Islanders.

weakness:

1. worse stats. Hunger+sanity+HP, Wonkey is only higher than Wes, lower than everyone else. When look at HP+Sanity and ignoring less urgent Hunger, Wonkey is a lot worse than most characters.

2. lose slots, cuz of trinkets

3. lose friends, from both sides, and you don't get to befriend cave monkeys or shadow monkeys either. Only have friend on Wonkey Island.

4. lose character's original power

5. lose walking speed for day to day activity

The only pro-Wonkey argument is that he's better than a challenge character. But that's exactly the wrong way and wrong context of comparison, because that's a challenge character. Wes is supposed to be the worse to become a challenge.

 

 

You can ask or argue for a skill tree for a punishment character. But you don't have to label him as "not punishment", which seems to make no sense.

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

And you're also punished for using sails because they destroy those for some reason???

They dont anymore...

[Dr.Webber]

I think you’ll like this

[Frosty_Mentos]

I'd enjoy a small skilltree for wonkey like building monkey houses and being like lite version of Webber, but I don't see this "character" being anything but a nuisance to exist as just for the sake of existing. The design of the curse is so that you'd be disabled in some capacity till you get rid of it, therefore you need to deal with it to do anything your character perks do otherwise you're just a Wonkey. By that theming and how any monkey creatures act in either dlc it clearly "monkeys are the worst"

[Jakepeng99]

5 hours ago, chirsg said:

Punishment for what, exactly?

Let's discuss this

Punishment for trying to engage moonquay content. Punishment for sailing near a moonquay. Punishment for trying to like moon quay content.

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

It's a punishment for killing Monkey raiders.

Of course, if you don't kill them you're punished for it by having your items stolen.

And then you're punished for not killing the monkeys anyways because if you don't get the map and find the chest, then items they steal start getting deleted.

And you're also punished for using sails because they destroy those for some reason???

You also get punished for bad world gen because you might get the moon quey within raiding range of Pearl or Crab king. So have fun with that.

Oh and lets not forget that there's no actual way to find the Moon Quey other than the world's worst game of hot potato. So you're also punished for not having the patience of a saint and/or amazing luck.

So maybe at the end of the day it's just easier to say that you're getting punished for sailing.

 

Look, I've given Planar, Rifts, and skill trees a LOT of sh** over the last few months. But Monkey Raids? Those things are a thousand times worse than all of those combined. It's honestly insulting how bad they are. Like damn Klei, how did you bung that up so bad?

Why has klei seriously not re looked this update yet?

[Szczuku]

The devs literally advertised them as a  "new outlook on life" not a curse.

I've made a suggestion about what Wonkey's skill tree could look like

Basically the idea was that it'd only have 15 perks that would auto-fill from left to right, with first 2 branches giving you bonus monkey or pirate-related perks. For example, faster harvesting, bonus inventory slot (cuz tail), ability to craft pirate equipment, it lasting twice as long on Wonkey, being able to throw poop, a grace period that lets you start running immediately if you stopped running only for like a second (to not punish Wonkey players for stopping to pick up a seed)

However, the last branch would be related to the curse, making it more powerful, therefore harder to get rid of it. For example, trinkets now stack up to 40, queen only removes 2 per banana, you generate trinkets over time

I think this is a nice idea as it works thematically as the skilltrees are suppsoed to empower every aspect of a character, therefore the curse aspect of Woneky would also end up getting buffed. It also makes it more appealing to stay as Wonkey and do mundane, everyday things, as opposed to rushing to get rid of trinkets immediately, like most people do nowadays cuz being Wonkey sucks

[arubaro]

I like the curse as punishment. Is an original survival mechanic, disabling character upsides and downside. Also was a cool way of disabling downsides like woodies transforming to deal with moon storms instead of the new skill tree simply removing the curse with no cost or interaction...

What I don't like is that you can get a raid right after you leave the island. I got raided after I cleaned my curse so I needed to go back and clean it again. Giving bananas to the monkey queen should stop raids for few day.

I also dislike the dumb storage limit of the pirate stash...are you telling me that you can have 573828 stacks of minerals and trinkets in 47372 moleworm burrows but you can't have few items in few stashes and, because of that,  some rot and twigs stolen will delete a precious item?

The stash could also drop good loot along with the stolen stuff so you get something useful after you get all the recipes. Right now you get trash so you feel like there is only punish and no benefit. 

Bandana and cutless...they shouldn't drop them 100% of the time. I know they drop it because they are equipped with them but it should work by percentage 

[_zwb]

Punishment for using click bait titles

[EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

Wonkey is a punishment for not bartering with the monkey queen. It doesn't really make sense to give a temporary transformation a skill tree, especially considering how little time most people spend as Wonkey. The current skill tree and insight mechanics just don't mesh well with them.

[BalkanCockroach]

5 hours ago, chirsg said:

Punishment and curse aren't things that are interchangeable

They are not interchangeable but being cursed is a punishment. Wonkey is only better than 1 character and that is Wes a hardmode character. His perks aren't a good tradeoff for what you miss if you don't choose to be another character.

It's a punishment fot letting the trinkets acummulate instead if trading with the Queen.

If a curse was a good thing, it would be called a blessing instead.

[Ardcrumb]

You're all weak, monkey time makes my goddamn day whenever it happens.

(If a skill tree gets added I hope there's a skill for flinging ****)

[chirsg]

To make it clear, I don't think that the feature itself should be removed or anything like that. Admittedly, I don't necessarily enjoy visiting monkey island, but I won't forget my first time going over after the patch came out of beta, a beta which I had never played, so I went in fresh. 
I almost died and had to meander across the island because everything I had was stolen. It was certainly a surprise and a near lethal one as well. 

I think that the "Punishment" aspect isn't accurate. It's a result. A curse. It's something you must manage, not avoid. If you kill a monkey and get cursed, you're essentially doing the right thing no matter what. It's kill, be killed or kill to prevent other items from getting stolen. It does certainly feel like a punishment because it's not an ideal result, but it encourages you to gift bananas to the queen when or if you figure it out. 

 

It steers you to a certain goal. Not the worst thing and I don't know how much I can speak of the implementation. All I can say it's something I don't enjoy doing regularly, but not something I'm too eager on getting reworked either. Nothing on the monkey island is necessary for any length of survival or progression for that matter. You're able to seamlessly kill every boss without interacting with the monkeys.

 

To go back to the point of punishment, I seriously don't think it is. ESPECIALLY monkey sailors. You cannot tell me that the punishment for defending yourself is to be cursed. In order to "not be punished" would one need to simply sail away?

 

It is a curse. Punishment implies there was an act that was worth punishing the punished over. A curse is a little more insidious than that most of the time. It's a treatment that is disproportionate to repay an act that isn't deserved. 

 

That's why I do think there should be a tree. If you are going to be cursed, why not have a small bonus? I'd be interested to see more trinkets that fill your pockets leading to monkey evolutions like prime mate or having perks that scale with how many of your inventory slots that are locked. 

To sum up, this isn't a criticism in an objective sense, this is just my general two cents on it.

-tl;dr, it's not a punishment. you get cursed for doing the right thing.

[Echsrick]

punishment for bad game design, like litteraly that monkey curse just adds a whole lot of nothing like why is it even there?

[Mysterious box]

12 hours ago, chirsg said:

Punishment for what, exactly?

Let's discuss this

Brute force.

38 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

punishment for bad game design, like litteraly that monkey curse just adds a whole lot of nothing like why is it even there?

The idea behind it is that your punished for solving the conflict with violence which honestly I'd like to see expanded in different ways in the game as I feel like the game is too combat focused anyway.

Personally I'd love for Wonkey to get a skill tree though but make it so his insight points are gained from eatting all the different banana crockpot dishes

With his skills being related to sailing, growing bananas, and stealing.

[-Variant]

Skill tree this, skill tree that, I'm tired of skill trees!

Now, those Wonkey skills that a lonely comment in the code said 'maybe eventually' to... where they at? Huh? Where's my Merrymaker snow Wonkey, Klei?

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, -Variant said:

Skill tree this, skill tree that, I'm tired of skill trees!

Now, those Wonkey skills that a lonely comment in the code said 'maybe eventually' to... where they at? Huh? Where's my Merrymaker snow Wonkey, Klei?

skill tree would also mean an ancient thulecite monkey skin, unless it'll just be a recolor that turns it into a splumonkey, unless they'll just not add anything like wigfrid & willow skill tree update