Planer Damage should be removed. A suggestion and a change.

[maroonamanita]

I'm all for adding or changing mechanics to be better because it sucks to do something and not have it work out, but Planer damage can't be saved. Let me just say, despite some issues I'm actually a big fan of the new skill trees. It's a lot of fun and if I'm being honest its fun to have a bunch of small perks that make no sense unless its a little post it note you put on your character sheet, and this should be a way to fix the Planer damage issue, but this is such a weird skill tax.

The issue also just invalidates 99% of the content added ever. Non-planer equipment is just bad, like really bad. At least for any of the new content, and it sucks and it's lame and it boring. This very much is trying to be a terraria oh man hard mode has started, but don't starve already has that with the raiding of the ruins. This is when you get the strong stuff and fight the hard enemies and usually you tackle this before you take down raid bosses. And the equipment is pretty good. Now the lunar "raid" is the lunar island and is very lacking in comparison and this makes sense. A lot of the easy stuff was done with the ruins already, but I think the lunar stuff is pretty good for how little there is. I think they could have made a glass armor a weaker version of the bright shade helm and suit and it would have been fine. 

So now with the new content we have the opposite problem lot of cool lunar equipment for the "endgame" and the shadow stuff might as well not exist. There is such an easy fix, just kill your baby. The baby is bad and biting the other babies. Everything is touched by this dumb mechanic all survivors currently in the game are affected in some way except 1. Wilson walks away unscathed and I think this is why it keeps being used. Wilson is a white room. Testing things with Wilson is smart but he is not the end all be all he used to be. He has no extra dmg, he has no weakness, and he has no important powers. He has nothing that can be messed with. Everyone else does.  

Willow: rip Bernie he takes so much damage and deals so little. You can really tell she was an early rework because she is still pretty much inline with how survivors were made originally. 

Wolfgang: He is so weird because before his skill tree he sucked with planer stuff, but now he is the best planer user ever. He destroys hordes with the bright shade staff, is one of the only ones who can do more damage then the 68 of a bright shade sword and still makes combat trivial. ( this is an edit after i wrote this but am about to post it. He did a little more before the skill tree because some of the damage is "normal")

Wendy: same issues as willow, but we get a new issue. Her downside is even less of an issue because now she has planer damage and that doesn't scale with her *0.75 damage.  

WX78: Well this is kind a bitch one but the shocking circuit does less. 

Wickerbottom:  bees

Woodie: He got his skill tree and guess what, it gave him planer damage/defense on his moose. Skill tax

Wes: He has less of one of his downsides so good for him.

Maxwell: he is the best in the game until you need him to kill a planer boss. Then he is just kind of good still 

Wigfrid: wowie poor girly loses most of her *1.25 damage, and on a more fun note her helmets and spears go in the trash.

Webber: lunar spiders should do lunar damage that would be funny. otherwise all followers are ******.

Winona: welp she got 1 thing going on and it's not nearly as good on planer stuff. lame

Warly: poor poor chef he lost so much here. He loses his spicy powder and his volt goat jelly. Well not lose but they are not as good. 

Wortox: Huh I guess nothing affects wortox. Way to go my guy

wormwood: HE JUST GOT THE NEW FOLLOWERS AND THEY DONT DO PLANER DAMAGE. Also bramble husk/trap.

Wurt: rip merm army

Walter: Ok so all his ammo is even worse now. Is he gonna add planer damage to all the types or just get a new ammo.

Wanda: She was destroyed. Gone to the sands of time, we will miss her and her and the fact she is the best in the game but sadly isn't as good at this one thing. 

So like what's the point. To make the fighter harder or make damage boosts less important. I mean I guess that's important but like, wolfgang got buffed so like what's the deal. 

My “solution”  so this is supposed to be like a cut off for making sure the new weapons are worth using, but you already have the answer, make the lunar and shadow affinity only work with “planer” weapons but remove the planer dmg and defense. They are now weapons that do 10% more at base and some survivors have perks attached like wormwoods whip vine. This makes them still the “end game” weapons, but also allows the iconic weapons to stay important. For smaller fights where you might not care about a 10% boost or the benefits of a perk or something. 

Skill trees are still early and wolfgang is the only one that needs a major change as his planer dmg scaling perks are worthless. I think a good suggestion would be to change it to increase the mightynes gained from work and fighting.

[Theukon-dos]

I mean, I agree with you. Anyone who's seen me on here over the last few months can attest to that. But you could atleast make your arguments for it... good?

Planar damage is a bad mechanic because it exists to address power creep that doesn't exist, unfairly effects characters and items that definitly didn't need nerfed, and is just an extremely complicated system to "fix" problems that could be dealt with by biting the bullet and spending a few hours nerfing number values. Not becuase of... whatever you're arguing for.

Also Wolfgang's planar boost doesn't effect the staff anymore, that was changed in the beta. Which is unfortunate, because that was the only fun part of his skill tree.

[Shosuko]

I think Planar is doing what it was designed to do, which is put 100% of the focus on the new content ditching pretty much everything that came before and I don't like it.

The new gear coming out is being made competitive against all previous gear, being given tons of new perks that have been wanted for years, but the big thumb on the scale is planar damage...  We'd use the new gear with or without planar but planar is pretty clearly pushing all of the old gear out.  Not just gear, but characters that haven't received skill trees are getting pushed out too.  And for what?

When planar was announced there was a lot of talk about how it was a re-balancing, but if that "rebalancing" is taking away Wolfgang's perk only to give it back to him...  Why didn't they just do that?  Why not make his damage scaling part of his perks FOR ALL COMBAT rather than only messing with this stuff?

Apparently the T in DST stands for Terrarriaclone now.

[Jakepeng99]

Planar damage is pretty genious.

[gamehun20]

5 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Apparently the T in DST stands for Terrarriaclone now.

Wouldn't it be a terraria clone if most weapons' base damaged weren't 68? And instead more

[Valase]

I disagree with you. I'm not even joking, this is a really bad take, backed up by a worse argument.

[Shosuko]

1 minute ago, gamehun20 said:

Wouldn't it be a terraria clone if most weapons' base damaged weren't 68? And instead more

The 68 cap is a lie, planar damage and defense warps previous thresholds.  Power scaling is unlocked and its only going UP from here.  Pretty soon Rick will rise from his grave and announce that you shouldn't build a dark sword, only an axe b/c 68 damage is trash just rush the 256 damage planar sword Z

[Jakepeng99]

Planar damage is good, but i dislike how the devs handle it. E.g Wolfgang's skilltree (And future ones most likely), warbis helm and a few other things.

 

Maybe we could grant non-planar weapons planar damage? The warbis helmet is a failed version of that since it only increases physical damage.

[Sacco]

the only thing i dislike about planar related things is "WHY ARE YOU GIVING CHARACTERS PLANAR DAMAGE ABILITIES TO GAIN THEIR MAX IPOTHETYCAL DPS AGAINST PLANAR ENEMIES, THAT JUST WERE MADE TO LOWER THE DPS"

i like the fact about having the best combat characters being nerfed a bit.

Wurt and Webber still destroy planar enemies, hordes just destroy everything.

Wolfgang still deals a ton of damage against planar enemies with planar weapons WITHOUT the skill.

Maxwell is still helped a lot by his shadows against planar enemies and Wigfrid still gains a bit more damage than usual.

Wendy gets a bit buffed but at the same time abi loses damage.

Wanda could work only if the planar damage just didn't destroy her, just make it reduced to her like normal damage.

And i can continue with other characters...

Edited October 23 by Sacco

[Maxil20]

I personally haven’t been having too much issues with planar damage, ever since they tweaked the formula so most “normal” damage hits are still fairly effective. Most follower mobs can still dish out good damage on planar entities, and really only should be an issue if you are stacking mass damage multipliers, such as Wolf’s on top of chaud froid, for instance.

If the intention was to prevent mass stacking damage multipliers to not steamroll through mobs, then I do feel they did accomplish that goal, even if the gear can stand up well on it’s own merits.

[Shosuko]

1 hour ago, Maxil20 said:

If the intention was to prevent mass stacking damage multipliers to not steamroll through mobs, then I do feel they did accomplish that goal, even if the gear can stand up well on it’s own merits.

Except then Wolfgang's skill tree comes out and he's stacking DPS anyway.  I don't think it will be different with anyone else.  Every character is going to get planar DPS skills tacked onto their combat skills making the whole thing a song and dance.

Stacking DPS wasn't a rush strat anyway.  You'd never get there if you didn't go through everything first anyway, and all that changes is we stack the new stuff instead of the old.

[goatt]

5 hours ago, maroonamanita said:

To make the fighter harder or make damage boosts less important.

.Currently, with planar damage, old content didn't become harder. Instead, they only become easier.

 

The unbalanced impression is because the update is still unfinished. 

[BalkanCockroach]

5 hours ago, maroonamanita said:

I'm all for adding or changing mechanics to be better because it sucks to do something and not have it work out, but Planer damage can't be saved. Let me just say, despite some issues I'm actually a big fan of the new skill trees. It's a lot of fun and if I'm being honest its fun to have a bunch of small perks that make no sense unless its a little post it note you put on your character sheet, and this should be a way to fix the Planer damage issue, but this is such a weird skill tax.

The issue also just invalidates 99% of the content added ever. Non-planer equipment is just bad, like really bad. At least for any of the new content, and it sucks and it's lame and it boring. This very much is trying to be a terraria oh man hard mode has started, but don't starve already has that with the raiding of the ruins. This is when you get the strong stuff and fight the hard enemies and usually you tackle this before you take down raid bosses. And the equipment is pretty good. Now the lunar "raid" is the lunar island and is very lacking in comparison and this makes sense. A lot of the easy stuff was done with the ruins already, but I think the lunar stuff is pretty good for how little there is. I think they could have made a glass armor a weaker version of the bright shade helm and suit and it would have been fine. 

So now with the new content we have the opposite problem lot of cool lunar equipment for the "endgame" and the shadow stuff might as well not exist. There is such an easy fix, just kill your baby. The baby is bad and biting the other babies. Everything is touched by this dumb mechanic all survivors currently in the game are affected in some way except 1. Wilson walks away unscathed and I think this is why it keeps being used. Wilson is a white room. Testing things with Wilson is smart but he is not the end all be all he used to be. He has no extra dmg, he has no weakness, and he has no important powers. He has nothing that can be messed with. Everyone else does.  

Willow: rip Bernie he takes so much damage and deals so little. You can really tell she was an early rework because she is still pretty much inline with how survivors were made originally. 

Wolfgang: He is so weird because before his skill tree he sucked with planer stuff, but now he is the best planer user ever. He destroys hordes with the bright shade staff, is one of the only ones who can do more damage then the 68 of a bright shade sword and still makes combat trivial. ( this is an edit after i wrote this but am about to post it. He did a little more before the skill tree because some of the damage is "normal")

Wendy: same issues as willow, but we get a new issue. Her downside is even less of an issue because now she has planer damage and that doesn't scale with her *0.75 damage.  

WX78: Well this is kind a bitch one but the shocking circuit does less. 

Wickerbottom:  bees

Woodie: He got his skill tree and guess what, it gave him planer damage/defense on his moose. Skill tax

Wes: He has less of one of his downsides so good for him.

Maxwell: he is the best in the game until you need him to kill a planer boss. Then he is just kind of good still 

Wigfrid: wowie poor girly loses most of her *1.25 damage, and on a more fun note her helmets and spears go in the trash.

Webber: lunar spiders should do lunar damage that would be funny. otherwise all followers are ******.

Winona: welp she got 1 thing going on and it's not nearly as good on planer stuff. lame

Warly: poor poor chef he lost so much here. He loses his spicy powder and his volt goat jelly. Well not lose but they are not as good. 

Wortox: Huh I guess nothing affects wortox. Way to go my guy

wormwood: HE JUST GOT THE NEW FOLLOWERS AND THEY DONT DO PLANER DAMAGE. Also bramble husk/trap.

Wurt: rip merm army

Walter: Ok so all his ammo is even worse now. Is he gonna add planer damage to all the types or just get a new ammo.

Wanda: She was destroyed. Gone to the sands of time, we will miss her and her and the fact she is the best in the game but sadly isn't as good at this one thing. 

So like what's the point. To make the fighter harder or make damage boosts less important. I mean I guess that's important but like, wolfgang got buffed so like what's the deal. 

My “solution”  so this is supposed to be like a cut off for making sure the new weapons are worth using, but you already have the answer, make the lunar and shadow affinity only work with “planer” weapons but remove the planer dmg and defense. They are now weapons that do 10% more at base and some survivors have perks attached like wormwoods whip vine. This makes them still the “end game” weapons, but also allows the iconic weapons to stay important. For smaller fights where you might not care about a 10% boost or the benefits of a perk or something. 

Skill trees are still early and wolfgang is the only one that needs a major change as his planer dmg scaling perks are worthless. I think a good suggestion would be to change it to increase the mightynes gained from work and fighting.

This is more like post mechanical or maybe post plantera if we compare it to terraria. or even post pillar maybe, cause im pretty sure the games story is coming to an end soon.

[Captain_Rage]

Wasn't one of the ideas behind the mechanic to remedy things like blowing up more difficult enemies ('difficult' as in 'the next tier') with single stack of gunpowder? Planar damage allows the rift enemies to stay at relatively few maximum hit points while still requiring effort to defeat. Compare a stack of gunpowder to learning how to fight  them (kiting patterns). The latter is far more favorable, without turning new enemies into bullet sponges.

As mentioned above, the updates are not even done.

Bernie is not meant for dealing damage. >_>

[lenship2]

its mainly here so that you can't have stuff like dark swords and marble armor be as effective in tanking the new 'endgame' bosses

and while i agree that its entire addition is questionable with the inclusion of skill trees, this entire post is one of the worst takes on planar damage

but here's some counterpoints so i can at least try to be constructive about it:

Spoiler

willow: bernie was designed to be a general mob tank, not a damage dealer. he's still useful for post rift enemies, since he never had any sort of resistance to begin with (so planar damage doesn't effect him)

wolfgang: does the damage he once did once more

wendy: abigail does do less damage on planar mobs, but wendy doesn't. so far the only planar enemy that has a mob group is the lunar varg, who summons non planar mobs.

wx: is actually pretty optimal post rift, and using the shock circuit is kind of ineffective even pre-rift

wickerbottom: bees were never that good imo, i wouldn't use them as an argument against planar damage

woodie: is finally good, and the moose already has built in knockback resistance combined with 90% resistance to all damage (including planar)

maxwell: his shadow puppets are still absolute beasts, especially post rifts where you'll have max shadow gear

wigfrid: she still has 25% damage resistance to planar damage and the entirety of her lifesteal mechanic

webber: he's still invincible to pretty much everything that doesn't do high damage aoe

winona: catapults still do their job pretty well, they just are slightly slower at killing planar mobs

warly: is really the only character significantly affected by rifts, but thats mainly due to their removal of wetness. he still has garlic (which applies to planar) and honey, which are really really good

wormwood: is wormwood, his saladmanders don't really need planar damage, and he has the entire brightshade skill tree branch

wurt: hordes of 600 health 50 damage (32 against planar) warrior merms are unsurprisingly still good

walter: slingshot isn't a good source of damage even pre-rift, why would you unironically use it outside of niche ranged abilities?

wanda: has both dreadstone and void gears, her 1.75x multiplier on the reaper, and her teleporting abilities (backstep is surprisingly effective on the new bosses)

[Spino43]

While I am pissed at planar mech as a whole, Klei has decidedly invested into it way too much to just throw it aboard now.

My biggest problem is planar only plays around you and the new content. Things like slurtle, rock lobster, cave spiders, enraged klaus, cc's phase 1 and toadstool are still unaffected by planar for some reason? 

[Dextops]

Planar hasn’t really had an effect on me basically I switch from using a dark sword to using a brightshade sword and so on, but I will say the brightshade staff is a neat tool to use.

[somethin]

Planar is just a way to give 'defense' values to enemies, making their effective health and damage higher without increasing the numbers to overblown proportions. The math behind it doesn't even matter much anyway. Just test it on the dummy for the exact value for crying out loud. As for the 'gear powercreep' reason people here has been throwing around, so... you peeps want to just be using hambat/darksword for weapon and thulecite gear/football helm&log suit for like... since their inception? It's high time we get something new to play with already and the update ain't even done yet.

[Well-met]

The only thing I hate about planar is mobs dealing planar damage. That's not okay

[Cheggf]

Why is the entire post bolded?

[Shosuko]

1 hour ago, somethin said:

Planar is just a way to give 'defense' values to enemies, making their effective health and damage higher without increasing the numbers to overblown proportions. The math behind it doesn't even matter much anyway. Just test it on the dummy for the exact value for crying out loud. As for the 'gear powercreep' reason people here has been throwing around, so... you peeps want to just be using hambat/darksword for weapon and thulecite gear/football helm&log suit for like... since their inception? It's high time we get something new to play with already and the update ain't even done yet.

Nah even without planar damage all of the new sets would be worth using.

[Pedro cc]

Walter should be removed, it's still not too late

[Masked Koopa]

4 hours ago, Captain_Rage said:

Wasn't one of the ideas behind the mechanic to remedy things like blowing up more difficult enemies ('difficult' as in 'the next tier') with single stack of gunpowder? Planar damage allows the rift enemies to stay at relatively few maximum hit points while still requiring effort to defeat. Compare a stack of gunpowder to learning how to fight  them (kiting patterns). The latter is far more favorable, without turning new enemies into bullet sponges.

I mean Klei added brightshade bombs which are basically just gunpowder if we're bein real.

3 hours ago, somethin said:

As for the 'gear powercreep' reason people here has been throwing around, so... you peeps want to just be using hambat/darksword for weapon and thulecite gear/football helm&log suit for like... since their inception? It's high time we get something new to play with already and the update ain't even done yet.

To be fair most of the gear isn't particularly new, mechanically speaking.

[maroonamanita]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Why is the entire post bolded?

Because when I copy and pasted it out of google docs it bolded it all for some reason and I did not notice

[Shosuko]

3 minutes ago, maroonamanita said:

Because when I copy and pasted it out of google docs it bolded it all for some reason and I did not notice

pasting into these forums maintains text formatting.  You can right click and select "paste as plain text" to strip it of formatting.