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Planer Damage should be removed. A suggestion and a change.


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2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Thing is, planar mechanics in and of itself doesn't actually make things tougher. Yeah, you need the new gear for it. But if they gave Deerclops planar protection without any other changes, the average joe would still be able to beat it with their eyes closed and nothing but a spear.

No, if you look at Host of Horrors, all the new bosses aren't tougher than their living counterparts, they're tougher becuase they have more advanced AI and complex attack patterns. If you scraped all the planar muck off of Crystal Deerclops and just made it spawn Y3 onwards, it would still be an incredibly challenging and enjoyable fight because it has a unique and challenging attack patterns.

 

And the reason planar damage isn't effected by modifiers is because it's designed to nerf combat characters. Why else would it not?

People here saying that planar damage is ruining the game, yet they also say planar doesn't even make the new bosses harder.

So... where's the problem?

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Just now, cybers2001 said:

People here saying that planar damage is ruining the game, yet they also say planar doesn't even make the new bosses harder.

So... where's the problem?

The problem is that it is an arbitrary damage calculation behind the scenes in a game that is already opaque with the details all for a false sense of progression.  We have real end-game tier gear that is being dumped aside because its nerfed against the new every-present rift harassment.  Nothing about planar increases the challenge or excitement of the game, its just a forced equipment change over.  "Oh in this room you need white swords.  Better put down your red one, it won't work.  btw here is a white one.  Continue pls"

The new bosses are awesome - but they would be just as awesome if planar didn't exist.  Just like we'd want to use the new gear even if planar wasn't a part of it.

Planar doesn't make things better, even though there are elements of these new updates that are good.

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1 hour ago, Retepeter said:

He got 30, any new bosses/mobs with more hp will still only be 30, not 2x

Did you mean new weapons with more damage? Hp doesn't impact damage. A character with default damage multiplier deals 69.48 damage against a fused shadeling with full brightshade set and brightshade sword, while mighty Wolfgang deals 146.94 damage. Now it's 2.11x damage.

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9 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

People here saying that planar damage is ruining the game, yet they also say planar doesn't even make the new bosses harder.

So... where's the problem?

The problem isn't that Planar Damage doesn't do anything. It's that Planar doesn't do anything good. You ask what the problem is, and just off the top of my head:

1. Exists to address power creep that doesn't exist. Klei themselves have said it's to address power creep. But as far as combat goes, Don't Starve is quite possibly the least power crept game I have ever seen. A decade later, and we're still using the same football helmets, hambats, and dark swords.

2. Fails to address what power creep actually exists. The one place that has been consistently power crept has been the characters themselves. And Klei has openly admitted they like this and have actively power crept them even more with skill trees. On top of that, some of the worst offenders of power creep really just don't care all that much about planar mechanics. Wanda can still warp around the map and heal off a nuclear bomb with her watches. Maxwell can still keep up with bearger when it comes to harvesting and can still stun lock bosses with his shadow prison. And Wickerbottom still has god-like power over the constant due to her books.

3. Unfairly nerfs characters that didn't need nerfed. Wolfgang is a character that comes up a lot in these discussions. But the thing is, he's probably the second least power crept character in the game. Atleast before he got a skill tree. There's some contention if his refresh made him stronger or weaker, but the fact that there's a contention at all should go to show that he was roughly in the same place power wise. But either way, the only people who still think Wolfgang needs a nerf after everything that's happened over the last few years are people who only watch 3+ year old Edgy Rick videos on who the best character is.

And to further prove the point, you know who else suffers because of Planar Damage? Wigfrid, Webber, Wurt, and Walter. If nobody in their right mind would ask for a Wolfgang nerf, then nobody at all was asking for these guys to be nerfed. Basically any combat-oriented perk becomes largely useless in the face of planar damage. Only Wendy really gets away with it sense planar damage also ignored her damage deficit.

4. Unfairly nerf already underpowered equipment. As said, football helmets, Hambats, and Dark Swords have been the go-too equipment for a decade. But you want to know what hasn't been? Batbat, Shield of Terror, Cookie Cutter Cap, Morning Star, Thulecite Club, ect. None of these weapons are or wherever considered meta outside of maybe a few niche uses. And now they'll be even worse thanks to the advent of planar mechanics. If the goal was to make people stop using dark swords and football helmets, why not just buff these instead?

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7 hours ago, Retepeter said:

Forum users try not to hate every new mechanic that makes the game a slight inconvenience

Wolfgang deserved the nerf

Retepeter try not to white knight for bad mechanics challenge impossible difficulty 99% will fail

Also, forum users arent the only one that can find flaws in this game's systems and design in places lmao

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7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

What nerf?  He got all his planar damage in his skill tree.

Ok, I don't like planar damage either (obviously), but this isn't quite true.

Wolfgang got a flat +25 planar damage with his skill tree, so this means that he only got "all" his damage back on weapons with 25 Planar Damage or less.

The brightshade sword deals 30 planar damage, so he's technically doing less with it compared to dark swords. But the damage loss is pathetically low, and you can still bring it back up with the brightshade helmet, so it's basically the same.

However, the Shadow Reaper can get up to +47 planar damage with the void cowl and keeping your combo up. In which case, Wolfgang's barely getting a +50% damage boost to the planar side of things. And in total can reach ~131 damage with the reaper compared to everyone else's ~89 damage. Or a 66% Damage Boost compared to other characters instead of 100%.

 

Ofcourse, I still maintain that Wolfgang didn't need the nerf, and it still effects every character with a semblance of a combat perk, so I think the point stands that it's still a bad thing.

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Well, like I said before, I don't know why character/food buff multipliers only exist on physical damage in the first place. Even if Wolfgang did "get it back" through the skill tree, that also means that he has a less flexible skill tree than other survivors, since half his points are already spoken for. This seems more like an implementation problem than a concept problem.  

Now, I do agree a new problem arises where planar weapons end up becoming specialty hammers used for specialty nails, which only hurts the already bottom-tier items like bat-bat and shield of terror, but I dunno, maybe Klei can redeem them by giving them planar perks or something. I don't even like the shadow scythe as a weapon, but I would consider using a shadow-aligned bat-bat that has the equivalent damage of, say, a thulecite club when used on lunar-aligned mobs.

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15 hours ago, Antynomity said:

Retepeter try not to white knight for bad mechanics challenge impossible difficulty 99% will fail

Also, forum users arent the only one that can find flaws in this game's systems and design in places lmao

Personally I've only seen it talked about negatively on the forums

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I don't mind planar damage. It saves us from the "endgame weapon oneshots boss from early game"-type powercreep, which is good considering that dst has a horrendous progression and "early game" bosses means like 75% of them. I'd like dfly, klaus, bee queen etc to still remain challenges (or at least not pushovers) even thousand days into open rifts

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19 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

I don't know why character/food buff multipliers only exist on physical damage in the first place.

Because said buffs items were made before planar damage/defense exist...? Who knows, we might get a new spice when Warly skill tree drops, whenever that is.

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6 hours ago, Szczuku said:

I don't mind planar damage. It saves us from the "endgame weapon oneshots boss from early game"-type powercreep, which is good considering that dst has a horrendous progression and "early game" bosses means like 75% of them. I'd like dfly, klaus, bee queen etc to still remain challenges (or at least not pushovers) even thousand days into open rifts

But what if i want to kill early bosses easily

Why do i have to stick to this dumb idea of "but in dst the player must be weak!"

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54 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

But what if i want to kill early bosses easily

I wouldn't mind having items that can kill them quickly, but why would you do that on interesting bosses? It's more of an issue with half of the bosses being uninteresting.

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On 10/25/2023 at 12:54 AM, Shosuko said:

The problem is that it is an arbitrary damage calculation behind the scenes in a game that is already opaque with the details all for a false sense of progression.  We have real end-game tier gear that is being dumped aside because its nerfed against the new every-present rift harassment.  Nothing about planar increases the challenge or excitement of the game, its just a forced equipment change over.  "Oh in this room you need white swords.  Better put down your red one, it won't work.  btw here is a white one.  Continue pls"

The new bosses are awesome - but they would be just as awesome if planar didn't exist.  Just like we'd want to use the new gear even if planar wasn't a part of it.

Planar doesn't make things better, even though there are elements of these new updates that are good.

Yeah, one of the things i liked about dst was that most of the weapons were somewhat viable throughout the whole game but now with planar mechanic, i can't imagine killing armored bearger with tentacle spikes.

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On 10/24/2023 at 4:31 PM, Capybara007 said:

The thing in terraria is that when you get a new and cool weapon you can use it to easily kill previous bosses or enemies

With planar stuff is literally using a darksword again tha can be repaired which is nice but still

Klei should care about old content too, just add more normal damage to planar weapons bruh

How is this a problem??

Don't Starve isn't a cringe game like Terraria where you lock yourself out of content by progressing. If you want to oneshot everything just use ThePlayer.components.combat.damagemultiplier=(999).

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43 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

Yeah, one of the things i liked about dst was that most of the weapons were somewhat viable throughout the whole game but now with planar mechanic, i can't imagine killing armored bearger with tentacle spikes.

The new bosses are supposed to be harder... So you could certainly attempt to kill armored bearger with tentacle spikes. As you might've guessed, it will be harder. 

 

5 hours ago, BezKa said:

Honestly, I just hate the clutter. There's so much stuff to make and it seems there will only be more.

 

I'm not sure clutter is the right word. It just offers more variety. Variety that can be ignored if you so choose (lureplant trash can/burn it)

 

5 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

But what if i want to kill early bosses easily

Why do i have to stick to this dumb idea of "but in dst the player must be weak!"

Then set up a catapult/houndius farm. The option is there to be stronk. 

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17 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

The new bosses are supposed to be harder... So you could certainly attempt to kill armored bearger with tentacle spikes. As you might've guessed, it will be harder. 

But dst proggression don't work like that. Only now this weapon becoming obsolete is a thing. Hambats can be made day 1 and it's still my choice of weapon for fuelweaver. weapons certainly had tiers before but not like this.

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On 10/25/2023 at 10:31 AM, Theukon-dos said:

The problem isn't that Planar Damage doesn't do anything. It's that Planar doesn't do anything good. You ask what the problem is, and just off the top of my head:

1. Exists to address power creep that doesn't exist. Klei themselves have said it's to address power creep. But as far as combat goes, Don't Starve is quite possibly the least power crept game I have ever seen. A decade later, and we're still using the same football helmets, hambats, and dark swords.

2. Fails to address what power creep actually exists. The one place that has been consistently power crept has been the characters themselves. And Klei has openly admitted they like this and have actively power crept them even more with skill trees. On top of that, some of the worst offenders of power creep really just don't care all that much about planar mechanics. Wanda can still warp around the map and heal off a nuclear bomb with her watches. Maxwell can still keep up with bearger when it comes to harvesting and can still stun lock bosses with his shadow prison. And Wickerbottom still has god-like power over the constant due to her books.

3. Unfairly nerfs characters that didn't need nerfed. Wolfgang is a character that comes up a lot in these discussions. But the thing is, he's probably the second least power crept character in the game. Atleast before he got a skill tree. There's some contention if his refresh made him stronger or weaker, but the fact that there's a contention at all should go to show that he was roughly in the same place power wise. But either way, the only people who still think Wolfgang needs a nerf after everything that's happened over the last few years are people who only watch 3+ year old Edgy Rick videos on who the best character is.

And to further prove the point, you know who else suffers because of Planar Damage? Wigfrid, Webber, Wurt, and Walter. If nobody in their right mind would ask for a Wolfgang nerf, then nobody at all was asking for these guys to be nerfed. Basically any combat-oriented perk becomes largely useless in the face of planar damage. Only Wendy really gets away with it sense planar damage also ignored her damage deficit.

4. Unfairly nerf already underpowered equipment. As said, football helmets, Hambats, and Dark Swords have been the go-too equipment for a decade. But you want to know what hasn't been? Batbat, Shield of Terror, Cookie Cutter Cap, Morning Star, Thulecite Club, ect. None of these weapons are or wherever considered meta outside of maybe a few niche uses. And now they'll be even worse thanks to the advent of planar mechanics. If the goal was to make people stop using dark swords and football helmets, why not just buff these instead?

1. You already addressed it in #2 (it's the survivors that have been powercrept). Every survivor was made stronger in his/her/their rework while nothing in the constant was changed to justify a stronger survivor

2. That's fair, but at least the constant overall has more dangers to it, which would indirectly justify the character powercreep

3. These aren't nerfs. They're just characters who are lacking a skill tree (which will come at some point). I'd rather have this than 1 giant update at some arbitrary time in the year (that was preceded by a 1-2 month long beta to iron everything out, unless you want to be the beta). 

4. This is the key here. While you make good points, the alternative is just honestly worse. The alternative seems like a new boss every 3-4 months and some QoL changes. That's just boring. Then I'm assuming you can craft something with these new boss drops -> people complain about power creep because there's no need in the constant for whatever new "overpowered" item the new boss drop can do -> #REF. New crafts keep things interesting and keeps the game fun for players of all skill levels. While you make good arguments and we're all here to make the game we love better, I do think that the devs put a lot of thought into this. 

Planar damage overall has drawbacks but it did accomplish the following:

a. allowed for new crafts that wouldn't make existing bosses a total joke

b. opens up a whole new dimension of creativity (mobs/bosses) as DST was getting boring after you killed AFW and CC (both of which are now doable within your first year)

c. added more challenges to DST (DST was rooted in a survival game concept)

d. allows DST to give all the survivors another rework, thus making them even more fun to play while addressing powercreep for the most part

 

In fairness, you could accomplish a lot of a-d without planar damage, but it would be a very tedious process. [as i said, a new boss every 3 months, with a single drops, etc]. To make an analogy, the way you're referring to is akin to building another house on an island with limited real estate, while planar damage allows you to build up. 

19 minutes ago, BalkanCockroach said:

But dst proggression don't work like that. Only now this weapon becoming obsolete is a thing. Hambats can be made day 1 and it's still my choice of weapon for fuelweaver. weapons certainly had tiers before but not like this.

So what would be DST progression or did it just not exist? If your day 1 weapon is the same as your day 1000 weapon, where's the progression?

 

Also, would your issues with planar damage be solved if you could craft a brightshade hambat? (1 hambat, 4 pure brilliance, and 3 husks)

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22 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

1. You already addressed it in #2 (it's the survivors that have been powercrept). Every survivor was made stronger in his/her/their rework while nothing in the constant was changed to justify a stronger survivor

2. That's fair, but at least the constant overall has more dangers to it, which would indirectly justify the character powercreep

3. These aren't nerfs. They're just characters who are lacking a skill tree (which will come at some point). I'd rather have this than 1 giant update at some arbitrary time in the year (that was preceded by a 1-2 month long beta to iron everything out, unless you want to be the beta). 

4. This is the key here. While you make good points, the alternative is just honestly worse. The alternative seems like a new boss every 3-4 months and some QoL changes. That's just boring. Then I'm assuming you can craft something with these new boss drops -> people complain about power creep because there's no need in the constant for whatever new "overpowered" item the new boss drop can do -> #REF. New crafts keep things interesting and keeps the game fun for players of all skill levels. While you make good arguments and we're all here to make the game we love better, I do think that the devs put a lot of thought into this. 

Planar damage overall has drawbacks but it did accomplish the following:

a. allowed for new crafts that wouldn't make existing bosses a total joke

b. opens up a whole new dimension of creativity (mobs/bosses) as DST was getting boring after you killed AFW and CC (both of which are now doable within your first year)

c. added more challenges to DST (DST was rooted in a survival game concept)

d. allows DST to give all the survivors another rework, thus making them even more fun to play while addressing powercreep for the most part

 

In fairness, you could accomplish a lot of a-d without planar damage, but it would be a very tedious process. [as i said, a new boss every 3 months, with a single drops, etc]. To make an analogy, the way you're referring to is akin to building another house on an island with limited real estate, while planar damage allows you to build up. 

So what would be DST progression or did it just not exist? If your day 1 weapon is the same as your day 1000 weapon, where's the progression?

 

Also, would your issues with planar damage be solved if you could craft a brightshade hambat? (1 hambat, 4 pure brilliance, and 4 husks)

The new skill trees are negating that to somepoint. So im still re-evaluating and thinking about this stuff. I don't have a concrete opinion on it. I'll wait until Wx78 skill tree ig.

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10 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

But what if i want to kill early bosses easily

Why do i have to stick to this dumb idea of "but in dst the player must be weak!"

Ironically nothing about planar does anything to stop us from setting up boss cheese so like, we still can do whatever we did before for these.

Also they were made easier in additions like the howlitzer.

4 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

The new bosses are supposed to be harder... So you could certainly attempt to kill armored bearger with tentacle spikes. As you might've guessed, it will be harder. 

The new bosses are harder, but not b/c of planar.  They are harder because they have more difficult attack patterns.  If planar was deleted their enjoyment and the rewards from them would remain mostly the same.  All new gear so far would be valuable with planar deleted.

3 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

In fairness, you could accomplish a lot of a-d without planar damage, but it would be a very tedious process. [as i said, a new boss every 3 months, with a single drops, etc]. To make an analogy, the way you're referring to is akin to building another house on an island with limited real estate, while planar damage allows you to build up. 

 

Nothing released so far would be OP without planar.  All it does is force the choice.  Going forward we *need* planar items to combat planar foes.  I'm sure people would have loved BS and shadow gear if planar wasn't a part of it, and none of it would have eclipsed earlier gear b/c it would still be post AFW, post CC, rift world gear.

All planar does so far is de-value old gear.  Dark sword is worst because of the massive nerf to its damage when you inevitable have to clear out the ever present wave of rift mobs and now rift bosses.  We're losing options b/c everything that came before is being pushed out.

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4 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

The new bosses are supposed to be harder... So you could certainly attempt to kill armored bearger with tentacle spikes. As you might've guessed, it will be harder. 

If the new bosses are supposed to be harder, why is it that I have to intentionalyl use weak weapons like tentacle spikes to do so? Why have they added these new weapons specifically for killing the bosses, if they're supposed to be harder? There's nothing difficult about holding the new strong thing in my hand instead of the old strong thing, that isn't hard. 

4 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

I'm not sure clutter is the right word. It just offers more variety. Variety that can be ignored if you so choose (lureplant trash can/burn it)

Planar is literally removing variety by forcing you to use the handful of new things instead of the big amount of old things. Had these new things been added without planar damage that would be more variety. 

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