Jump to content

Planer Damage should be removed. A suggestion and a change.


Recommended Posts

20 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

2 part answer. 

1. It directly reduces damage done by survivors/weapons that deal high damage. The new damage function is basically a square root curve so low damage weapons/survivors aren't impacted very much while high damage weapons/survivors are impacted more heavily. That's textbook fighting powercreep. Instead of making the weaker survivors (ex. walter, winona, wes, woodie, etc) deal more damage to keep up with the wolfgangs, wigs, and wandas, the latter group deals less damage. The weaker group of course is still impacted but not by as much. 

2. I don't know how many times I have to say this but it's about the entire package. There are changes to the constant that have made it more challenging for survivors to thrive in. Planar damage is part of that package.

Im gonna get crucified by saying this but i dont think it is challenging

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Im gonna get crucified by saying this but i dont think it is challenging

Understandable. But you're a strong player and there are likely at most 3 fights that you would break a sweat fighting (misery/crab/afw no cheese). That's a high bar to meet. And I fully expect the devs to build out more unique fights and probably a major boss fight at some point. This is only just the beginning. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, PetulantPansy said:

Understandable. But you're a strong player and there are likely at most 3 fights that you would break a sweat fighting (misery/crab/afw no cheese). That's a high bar to meet. And I fully expect the devs to build out more unique fights and probably a major boss fight at some point. This is only just the beginning. 

Well, maybe i was too vague, i kinda wanted to reffer challenging as fun

Planar weapons arent really fun like i just feel like my options got limited which isnt fun or challenging

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

2 part answer. 

1. It directly reduces damage done by survivors/weapons that deal high damage. The new damage function is basically a square root curve so low damage weapons/survivors aren't impacted very much while high damage weapons/survivors are impacted more heavily. That's textbook fighting powercreep. Instead of making the weaker survivors (ex. walter, winona, wes, woodie, etc) deal more damage to keep up with the wolfgangs, wigs, and wandas, the latter group deals less damage. The weaker group of course is still impacted but not by as much. 

Nah that is bunk, and always has been.  Multiplayer is the biggest damage increase you get in this game and planar does nothing to stop it.  4 people holding F is still going to be the biggest cheese in the game.  Doing something like a per/character scaling boss similar to Klaus would get my approval in this regard far more then "nerf wolfgang and wanda."  Its just not the path forward, never has been and every time people mention it - including when I used to mention it - they are wrong.

That is kinda the worst part about the new skill trees and planar damage - homoginization of the cast.  No more will a "combat character" be a combat character b/c they are getting gutted, and everyone else getting perks in to basically peel away any purpose to character choice - except that the real OP's Wicker / Maxwell are going to win in the end with incredible non-combat prowess and still fantastic combat prowess to match everyone else.

4 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

2. I don't know how many times I have to say this but it's about the entire package. There are changes to the constant that have made it more challenging for survivors to thrive in. Planar damage is part of that package.

Planar means nothing to this package.  The only thing planar does is nerf pre-existing items.  It does not enhance anything, it just forces you to change gear.

oH bUtYoU caN sTiL uSe dude a 30% damage nerf with ZERO upsides isn't a choice.  Without planar we could (and probably still would) choose BS gear for its reparability, damage boost vs shadows, and other perks.  The new gear is <<LOADED>> that without planar is would still eclipse most choices - but with planar it forces is to make that choice.

If Klei gave me an answer like that I would literally quit the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Nah that is bunk, and always has been.  Multiplayer is the biggest damage increase you get in this game and planar does nothing to stop it.  4 people holding F is still going to be the biggest cheese in the game.  Doing something like a per/character scaling boss similar to Klaus would get my approval in this regard far more then "nerf wolfgang and wanda."  Its just not the path forward, never has been and every time people mention it - including when I used to mention it - they are wrong.

Irrelevant.  You asked me how planar damage addressed survivors becoming too strong for the constant. I answered. No where did I mention that the multiplayer experience was too easy, nor did I say that planar damage was introduced to make the multiplayer experience more challenging. 

56 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

That is kinda the worst part about the new skill trees and planar damage - homoginization of the cast.  No more will a "combat character" be a combat character b/c they are getting gutted, and everyone else getting perks in to basically peel away any purpose to character choice - except that the real OP's Wicker / Maxwell are going to win in the end with incredible non-combat prowess and still fantastic combat prowess to match everyone else.

That's just nonsense. I don't know how you look at woodie's, wolfgang's and wormwood's planar damage output post-skill tree and say: "yeah, holding f yields the exact same damage output with all 3 of these survivors". That's not even to mention all the other non-combat related perks in those skill trees that further develop the unique perks of each survivor. Poor wolfgang. He deals the highest planar damage output, but nah, according to you, the old combat character has been "gutted". What planar damage did do was reduce the gap in damage output between wilson and wolfgang. He still does more but not as much as before. As far as I am concerned, wolfgang's character description never said, "deals 2x the damage of a normal survivor", so I see no issues with this. 

> "the real OP's Wicker / Maxwell are going to win"

im sorry, what are Wicker and Maxwelll winning? This was never meant to be a competitive game

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Without planar we could (and probably still would) choose BS gear for its reparability, damage boost vs shadows, and other perks.  The new gear is <<LOADED>> that without planar is would still eclipse most choices - but with planar it forces is to make that choice.

1. This is endgame content. You already went through a bunch of various struggles to get this far. All the perks you mentioned are nice but they're mostly QoL at this point *if planar stuff didn't exist*. It's not like you *need* a weapon that does extra damage against shadows, or a shield of terror 2.0. 

2. When offered a bunch of sidegrade options, players are far less likely to interact with it, thereby reducing the overall interaction with the entire arc and what Klei is working towards. That's the key here. As an example, I purposefully avoided activating lunar rifts after CC prior to this past update. The new gear already existed, but I simply didn't care. Many others I played with on an endless server also wanted to avoid opening the rifts. It just wasn't worth the hassle. So just because a slightly better version of an existing item exists, it doesn't mean that players will actively seek out the item. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm really not seeing the issue here. You don't unlock Planar until you have already beaten the game with the normal weapons (hambats/dark swords etc). You already had to beat the game without the extra damage planar gives you. Your reward is these new powerful weapons that replace the old ones, and a few planar abilities for the characters who have insight, and new challenges to fight in the post game (of which not all is implemented yet). Your new gear makes the old bosses (which you already beaten easier), but theres new challenges ahead of you now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PetulantPansy said:

Irrelevant.  You asked me how planar damage addressed survivors becoming too strong for the constant. I answered. No where did I mention that the multiplayer experience was too easy, nor did I say that planar damage was introduced to make the multiplayer experience more challenging. 

That's just nonsense. I don't know how you look at woodie's, wolfgang's and wormwood's planar damage output post-skill tree and say: "yeah, holding f yields the exact same damage output with all 3 of these survivors". That's not even to mention all the other non-combat related perks in those skill trees that further develop the unique perks of each survivor. Poor wolfgang. He deals the highest planar damage output, but nah, according to you, the old combat character has been "gutted". What planar damage did do was reduce the gap in damage output between wilson and wolfgang. He still does more but not as much as before. As far as I am concerned, wolfgang's character description never said, "deals 2x the damage of a normal survivor", so I see no issues with this. 

> "the real OP's Wicker / Maxwell are going to win"

im sorry, what are Wicker and Maxwelll winning? This was never meant to be a competitive game

1. This is endgame content. You already went through a bunch of various struggles to get this far. All the perks you mentioned are nice but they're mostly QoL at this point *if planar stuff didn't exist*. It's not like you *need* a weapon that does extra damage against shadows, or a shield of terror 2.0. 

2. When offered a bunch of sidegrade options, players are far less likely to interact with it, thereby reducing the overall interaction with the entire arc and what Klei is working towards. That's the key here. As an example, I purposefully avoided activating lunar rifts after CC prior to this past update. The new gear already existed, but I simply didn't care. Many others I played with on an endless server also wanted to avoid opening the rifts. It just wasn't worth the hassle. So just because a slightly better version of an existing item exists, it doesn't mean that players will actively seek out the item. 

 

God damnit it's not letting me split up quotes again.

1. Your own logic is circular and self-contradictory. We need planar damage and post-rift content to nerf so-called "OP" Characters, but these things also justify adding skill trees to make the character stronger? If rifts are supposed to make characters weaker, then we shouldn't need skill trees to compensate. And if skill trees are supposed to make characters stronger, we shouldn't need rifts to tone them down.

2. See, I'm not actually opposed to lowering the gap between the best combat characters and the average character; combat perks are considered far and away the best by most players; and for good reason. But rift content really isn't a good way to do that, if only because it means that bridge isn't gapped until quite likely dozens of hours in and not until you've already fought a lot of major bosses.

3. This also loops back to my point of "If these things are as OP as people claim, then just nerf them directly"

4. Maxwell and and Wickerbottom are winning because their OPness is already pretty detached from combat. So Planar already barely effects them, and they'll probably just get planar damage with their skill trees anyways. Well, Max atleast. I'm not expecting much out of Wicker's skill tree given her refresh.

5. You simultaniously underestimate the lengths people will go to for QoL features, and understate just how good post-rift gear is even divided from planar damage. Yes, people will use rift gear even if/when planar damage gets nuked. It's not a make-or-break requirement.

6. I disagree with the notion that sidegrades automatically get ignored. I would instead argue that the side grades we have now aren't very good. They're still viable if the player goes out of the way for them, but Dark Swords are both the cheapest option and most universally applicable. I guarentee if the Shield of Terror had hambat damage and a bit more durability/couldn't break completely, it would be considered on-par with dark swords by most players.

7. You claim that planar is an important part of the rift arc and it's ecosystem. But have you considered the fact that the From Beyond arc just hasn't been that, y'know. Good?

I've avoided talking about it until now sense the conversation was squarly on planar damage. But really, the last 6 or so months have been defined by little more than controversy.

> Brightshades are quite likely the single most hated mob in the history of DST. I could probably count the number of people I've seen who actually like the damn things on one hand. Klei has claimed that they'll be less oppressive once we get more gestalted mobs to share their spawns, yet haven't done anything to make them more manageable until that actually happens.

>Even if they avoid bases, lunar rifts still do a ton of damage to the terrain and make a huge mess. And let's not mention the time when they DID destroy bases despite the fact that this should have been caught in the beta.

> Acid Rain was so atrocious on release that the entire feature was gutted for another month until Klei could just make it tolerable. Even now, it's barely even a mechanic unless you're playing Wanda.

> Though not nerfed as severely, I'd still argue that it says something when the best idea Klei had for post-rift survival danger was apparently glorified earthquakes on the surface.

>Problems already mentioned. IE Planar mechanics.

 

Maybe I'm just biased. But the rift updates have honestly just been kinda bad as a whole. And as said before, I don't exactly have faith in Klei to wrap it neatly when the ocean is still sitting there unbaked and unloved.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.7bb028af95435bb42c2b3791e2009c9c.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/28/2023 at 7:28 AM, PetulantPansy said:

2. When offered a bunch of sidegrade options, players are far less likely to interact with it, thereby reducing the overall interaction with the entire arc and what Klei is working towards. That's the key here. As an example, I purposefully avoided activating lunar rifts after CC prior to this past update. The new gear already existed, but I simply didn't care. Many others I played with on an endless server also wanted to avoid opening the rifts. It just wasn't worth the hassle. So just because a slightly better version of an existing item exists, it doesn't mean that players will actively seek out the item. 

 

Nah people interact with side grades all the time.  The eyeball helmet is a sidegrade from the football helmet and people do indeed hunt the eye early to get this helmet since its easily repairable with any kind of food.  It dodges the requirements of re-upping pig skins and eases the grass tax, two chores that were previously dealt with from early to late game.  That is a good side grade b/c you can still go on using football helmets if you want, and there are still upgrades like thul crown - and some people will still rush the ruins and get thul crowns early, still not interacting with the eyeball and that is okay b/c it is an OPTION.

The glass cutter was in a rough spot on release b/c there weren't many sources of glass and you had to go to the lunar island to craft it.  As we got more glass sources it became a great side grade to the dark sword, even though its only perk was double durability vs shadow monsters.  People would need half as many dark swords for AFW and shadow chess pieces which was great, but it was also a decent run-around chopper for ppl who wanted to stay higher sanity like if they're using enlightened crown. 
Ironically the reason it became more used was the increase in our glass resources... from killing CC lol  Now this weapon is essentially deleted as we skip over it to BS gear b/c planar...

We can point to side grades that didn't make the grade - but the reasons they didn't get used were mostly b/c there just wasn't a use for them, or where they were useful they just weren't useful enough.  Strident trident has a pretty cool perk which is limited in use.  Every situation where it is useful it will be used, but the generic double-durability thing they tagged onto this following the glass cutter just isn't worth while.  Similar to the glass cutter the recipe is pretty taxing in addition to the ocean bringing only a few limited moments to engage in combat - also you get it only after you defeat probably the only fight you'd want the thing in - a fight coincidentally you're not encouraged to repeat...  IF the strident trident were accessible earlier and its recipe were laxed either by reducing the horns needed or just increasing the ways you can get horns it would be picked up more. 
Of course CK is just one step away from CC, a land fight, which opens the planar arc invalidating any potential use for the strident trident as a weapon lol

Thulecite club is another side grade that doesn't get much use - but it actually DID when it had a pocket of usefulness.  It used to be a go-to weapon for early Ancient Guardian.  The extra move speed was very useful for this fight.  The problem is...  as we've seen with other side grades...  crafting it was far too restrictive.  This couples with the fact that even with tentacle spawns against a more stationary target it doesn't always out dps the alternatives.  If tentacle damage were upped just a little bit and maybe we dropped it to only use 1 living log on craft (and / or got a portable ancients station like the lunar rock) we'd see these in use more.  
We used to at least live on the dream that we were *possibly* getting more dps switching to the thul club but now that we have planar this weapon is dead and buried.  Sucks b/c its skins are literally TOP TIER.

Nah see - side grades are great b/c they are options.  The problem is when the game doesn't do side grades, but just straight up scales everything forcing you to use new gear (oh but you can still make the stupid choice of dealing 30% less damage for zero benefit, yes I've seen you say this ridiculous line...) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Oh, no! You can't use them against the 7% of the mobs that are in the game. Oh woe, woe is us

So if it's apparently such an unused thing that basically doesn't exist because it's only on "7%" of mobs, there's not really a reason for it to be here and we can remove it with no harm since it's such a small thing that nobody ever sees, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Nah see - side grades are great b/c they are options.  The problem is when the game doesn't do side grades, but just straight up scales everything forcing you to use new gear (oh but you can still make the stupid choice of dealing 30% less damage for zero benefit, yes I've seen you say this ridiculous line...) 

You said it yourself. It all depends on the ease of access to the side grade option and how good it is. Whether it is the eyeball helmet flavor, or the trident flavor is based on personal preferences. In a parallel universe where planar mechanics didn't exist, it's too early to make judgement on how those items would be received as a good portion of the new content hasn't been introduced yet. 

Side-grades themselves also have a limitation of saturation. You only have 1 head slot, 1 body slot, etc. Optionality is good but you reach a point where you have 3 different items that have little differentiation between them, and there's no longer a compelling reason to use newer side grade items unless it fits a certain playstyle. Given Klei's limited resources, it doesn't make sense for them to dedicate this much time and effort into such niche endeavors. 

Lastly, it's not a secret that this is end game content. There should be rewards for getting to the end game and you get rewarded with relatively stronger equipment. I don't see what's so shocking about this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/27/2023 at 5:22 PM, Capybara007 said:

i dont understand why people exactly defend planar damage, i get that you have to defend every decision klei makes but this is a situation where i dont see nobody getting anything, good?

if you are like me and like to kill early threats with weapons in the later game you cant because using them its the same as a normal dark sword

and if you like "every option being viable at all times" then you are not benefited either because post rifts enemies make you have to use planar weapons with them which reduces variety

My theory is that it's because of some kind of Idolization of Klei. A belief that don't starve is a good game, so anything they make must also be good.

It's really the only reason I Can think of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

1. Your own logic is circular and self-contradictory. We need planar damage and post-rift content to nerf so-called "OP" Characters, but these things also justify adding skill trees to make the character stronger? If rifts are supposed to make characters weaker, then we shouldn't need skill trees to compensate. And if skill trees are supposed to make characters stronger, we shouldn't need rifts to tone them down.

A lot to unpack here. To start off with, the logic behind these things were multi vector approaches. There wasn't 1 single reason for introducing planar damage and post-rift content, and even if there were 1 sole reason for doing this, it certainly wasn't to nerf OP characters. Again, it's part of the package, where the stronger characters were nerfed to an extent. It's something a part of the player base has actually asked for, and it's more of a product of the circumstances. 

You are somewhat implying that I'm saying that we got a net change when in reality, we were first given +1 (through the rift update), followed by (-1) through skill trees. So no net change. That's just a gross misrepresentation of skill trees and what's going on in general. The rift update added a variety of new challenges to the constant, and the skill trees have aspects that deal with 1 or 2 of these new challenges, while also providing QoL or general gameplay perks that don't have anything to do with the rift update. So more like (+5) followed by (-2) through the skill tree. There was a net change. 

 

I'll address some of the rest of your ideas with their corresponding number. 

2. unfortunately, there's just no other way to do it sooner without instigating a riot

4. Max is very much a combat character, or should I say cheese character. Regardless, his shadow minions are still impacted by planar mechanics, at least for now. Wicker's power comes from controlling the moon cycle, rain, and making a bee mob (combat perk). The first 2 perks are powerful but as you note earlier, combat perks are valued more than most other perks. The real winner is still Max since he turned wicker into a pick/switch survivor but that's another conversation. 

11 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

5. You simultaniously underestimate the lengths people will go to for QoL features, and understate just how good post-rift gear is even divided from planar damage. Yes, people will use rift gear even if/when planar damage gets nuked. It's not a make-or-break requirement.

I already said it before. Prior to this update, a lot of people didn't interact much with the new lunar rift. The new gear was so-so, and they did not have enough draw to overcome the hassles of dealing with brightshades. Even if people didn't want to deal with brightshades, they still could've activated the lunar rift and based in the caves. But no, they still didn't do that. So no, I don't perceive that I'm underestimating the lengths to which people will go to for Qol features. In fact, I already saw it, granted my sample size is small. 

7. We only had 3 content updates so far, the first of which didn't even bring many gameplay changes with the exception of the new items (that a lot of people didn't mess around with much). It's too early to judge. I personally see potential with where this is going. The potential to basically build a DST 2.0 or DST hard mode on top of the existing constant is there. Obviously, there's no telling if that's actually what happens, but the potential is there, and planar mechanics is core to making that happen. It gives the devs a fairly clean slate and freedom, unlike if they kept working within the constraints of the existing constant. 

11 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Maybe I'm just biased. But the rift updates have honestly just been kinda bad as a whole. And as said before, I don't exactly have faith in Klei to wrap it neatly when the ocean is still sitting there unbaked and unloved.

Off topic but I'll just address it one time here. The ocean is done. They finally realized that some people (like me) will refuse to want to go out on a boat and sail unless I absolutely have to; adding more content to the ocean will not change that and it will just be a poor use of resources. It's not ideal for people who want to interact with the ocean but I don't think they made a wrong decision. 

Common problems with the ocean are that:

1. Too much emptiness

2. Limited reason to interact with it (go to pearl max 2-3 times, lunar island 1-2 times + CC fights, monkey island 1-2 times [and the monkey trinket was a solid concept to increase interaction with ocean content but was too easy to circumvent [tactical death])

3. Sailing is too tedious

This isn't fixable with small updates here and there. Fundamental to the issue is that the DST land mass is so large and as you guessed, water surrounds land. They could try porting in shipwrecked concepts since that was fun, but that comes with issues of its own. 

 

But hey, as this new content gets developed out, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a quest line or 2 that involved ocean content.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

My theory is that it's because of some kind of Idolization of Klei. A belief that don't starve is a good game, so anything they make must also be good.

It's really the only reason I Can think of.

You theory sounds like it would not make through peer review. But my Theory is absolutely better:

My theory is that it's because of some kind Hatelization of Clay. A belieft that don't starve togheter is a bad game, so anything they make must also be bad.

 

Jokes aside, it's a little bit complicated situation, you guys can complain about the new content as much as I can AND I can give my peer review to the new content as much as you can.

So when you complain that "Skill tree== Bad" I can give my review that "Skill tree =/= Bad", but when you complain "Skill tree == Bad AND Klei == bad game direction", I must also "Skill tree =/= Bad AND Klei =/= bad game direction", because that is my opinion, just like the first statement was your's. 

Also, get brightshade'd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

the only reason

It’s quite simple - don’t ask “why” when that isn’t what you’re looking for.

If a quarter of the time spent on thinking of “why not” was spent on “why” you could be coming up with constructive examples of ways to achieve the same/passable effect or possibly come to the conclusion there’s no other way.

It’s okay for you to say you don’t think it’s worth it overall, but to say there’s absolutely no purpose or redeeming qualities just isn’t true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/28/2023 at 2:53 PM, PetulantPansy said:

You said it yourself. It all depends on the ease of access to the side grade option and how good it is. Whether it is the eyeball helmet flavor, or the trident flavor is based on personal preferences. In a parallel universe where planar mechanics didn't exist, it's too early to make judgement on how those items would be received as a good portion of the new content hasn't been introduced yet. 

Side-grades themselves also have a limitation of saturation. You only have 1 head slot, 1 body slot, etc. Optionality is good but you reach a point where you have 3 different items that have little differentiation between them, and there's no longer a compelling reason to use newer side grade items unless it fits a certain playstyle. Given Klei's limited resources, it doesn't make sense for them to dedicate this much time and effort into such niche endeavors. 

Lastly, it's not a secret that this is end game content. There should be rewards for getting to the end game and you get rewarded with relatively stronger equipment. I don't see what's so shocking about this. 

Nah this whole "wait and see" is kinda bs.  Nothing has come out that has really changed what planar is, or does, or means for the game.

BS gear would 100% be appreciated without planar - just look at how a player like @Mike23Ua - a player who typically isn't boss rushing or megabasing - received the update.  It was essentially "turn plants on in world gen and enjoy free weapons / armor material delivered to your base non-stop."  They were an amazing side great and extremely powerful even without planar on the scale.  Planar simply pushes old gear out - that is all it does.  Fights post planar are not anything special because of planar, b/c planar is nothing but stats.  It doesn't give you any interesting choices to make, it doesn't create interactions with the enemies that are special, it doesn't even feel more powerful because it isn't - planar doesn't make anything stronger, it only makes things weaker.  Literally everything these weapons do would be great as side grades without this planar damage type.

And why exactly do we need to scale (or pretend to) anyway?  This is not some jrpg where we're level grinding.  Its a survival game - one famous and unique for its flat, knowledge based progression.  Changing it at this point makes DST a different game in a bad way.  If I wanted to play some scaling rpg game I wouldn't be playing DST.

From my experience side grades make more interesting choices that allow us to personalize our approach within the game.  One of my friends loves the eyeball helmet and shield, I love the dreadstone helmet and armor, we are both playing the exact same game but want to play it different ways and with side grades, and choices we can.  But when it comes to post planar those choices and others get stripped away.  BS supplies are delivered steadily and reliably that there is literally no reason not to use them.  If you don't use the mats they'll soon outnumber hounds teeth...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Valase said:

You theory sounds like it would not make through peer review. But my Theory is absolutely better:

My theory is that it's because of some kind Hatelization of Clay. A belieft that don't starve togheter is a bad game, so anything they make must also be bad.

 

Jokes aside, it's a little bit complicated situation, you guys can complain about the new content as much as I can AND I can give my peer review to the new content as much as you can.

So when you complain that "Skill tree== Bad" I can give my review that "Skill tree =/= Bad", but when you complain "Skill tree == Bad AND Klei == bad game direction", I must also "Skill tree =/= Bad AND Klei =/= bad game direction", because that is my opinion, just like the first statement was your's. 

Also, get brightshade'd.

The argument is that nobody gets benefitted from planar dmg

I have been saying since 2021 that late game weapons like trident should have more than 68 damage, which people called me out because of "i like every option being viable at all times! That is much fun than your idea!"

Now klei adds planar damage, and weapons with fun gimmicks like club are unviable, and the same people that used to praise klei for using the "viable at all times" idea now praise the planar mechanics

In my eyes its just cope from lack of good mechanics recently added they have to convince themselves this is beneficial for the game, but ok, you can say whatever you want

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

The argument is that nobody gets benefitted from planar dmg

I have been saying since 2021 that late game weapons like trident should have more than 68 damage, which people called me out because of "i like every option being viable at all times! That is much fun than your idea!"

Now klei adds planar damage, and weapons with fun gimmicks like club are unviable, and the same people that used to praise klei for using the "viable at all times" idea now praise the planar mechanics

In my eyes its just cope from lack of good mechanics recently added they have to convince themselves this is beneficial for the game, but ok, you can say whatever you want

I just answered the guy saying that the oposite is also appliable and you finish your text with this?

"In my eyes its just cope from lack of good mechanics added they have to convince themselves this is bad for the game, but ok, you can say whatever you want"

take it, it's very appliable.

People trashed the weapons with fun gimmicks because they did not: have infinite uses (Hambat), big damage (Dsword) and miraculously people started to like the Shield of terror(when it came out people also trashed the crossover). Club was the consolation prize from the ruins, morning star is the toadstool weapon, spears don't exist "since an axe is better", blowdarts(normal one) were from the "30s misery toadstool kill" video, all of the rest never saw the light of day.

You can say that the armors were the biggest losers from the planar addition(and I do agree that they took quite a hit), but I think I said it earlier this thread: there was no room for armor growth. How do you beat the ruins helmet shield? how do you beat the bone armor invulnerability? we got dreadstone armor set that regens itself, but this armor only is better than the other two if it is not broken in the fight. May I ask you, how would you balance this all out? (only the armors, I will ask you about the weapons after you answer this one) do you lower their defense values and give these values to the new armors? do you reduce their usetime, or how they block damage? And how will you balance the early game around that, because we can't have a football helmet with the same protection ratio as a ruins helmet, so you would need to lower it too, which means that the damage output from day to day creatures would need to be rajusted, otherwise every new player day would be hell. Tell me, how would you rebalance the game around content that comes after CC/FW?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Valase said:

May I ask you, how would you balance this all out? (only the armors, I will ask you about the weapons after you answer this one) do you lower their defense values and give these values to the new armors? do you reduce their usetime, or how they block damage? And how will you balance the early game around that, because we can't have a football helmet with the same protection ratio as a ruins helmet, so you would need to lower it too, which means that the damage output from day to day creatures would need to be rajusted, otherwise every new player day would be hell. Tell me, how would you rebalance the game around content that comes after CC/FW?

I think the armor is on the better place when it comes to planar mechanics, to the point where i think even if planar damage didnt exist it would still be better than thulecite armor since repairing is such a good mechanic since it saves the time of grinding more armor items

You have to think about it this way, would it be problematic if you could use just fine the pre rifts armor against armored bearger for example?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Bird Up said:

I'm all for hardmode DST with nutty new equipment. bring on the dst plantera boss

Oh god I can already see it as the new beequeen where instead of spamming bees it spam eyeplants that have double the health instead :spidercowers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Nah this whole "wait and see" is kinda bs.  Nothing has come out that has really changed what planar is, or does, or means for the game.

BS gear would 100% be appreciated without planar - just look at how a player like @Mike23Ua - a player who typically isn't boss rushing or megabasing - received the update.  It was essentially turn plants on in world gen and enjoy free weapons / armor material delivered to your base non-stop.  They were an amazing side great and extremely powerful even without planar on the scale.  Planar simply pushes old gear out - that is all it does.  Fights post planar are not anything special because of planar, b/c planar is nothing but stats.  It doesn't give you any interesting choices to make, it doesn't create interactions with the enemies that are special - literally everything these weapons do would be great as side grades.

And why exactly do we need to scale so much anyway?  This is not some jrpg where we're level grinding.  Its a survival game - one famous and unique for its flat, knowledge based progression.  Changing it at this point makes DST a different game in a bad way.  If I wanted to play some scaling rpg game I wouldn't be playing DST.

From my experience side grades make more interesting choices that allow us to personalize our approach within the game.  One of my friends loves the eyeball helmet and shield, I love the dreadstone helmet and armor, we are both playing the exact same game but want to play it different ways and with side grades, and choices we can.  But when it comes to post planar those choices and others get stripped away.  BS supplies are delivered steadily and reliably that there is literally no reason not to use them.  If you don't use the mats they'll soon outnumber hounds teeth...

I already addressed most of this in the comment you replied to. Without planar, the new equipment is a lot less compelling, and there is anecdotal evidence that the new items will be ignored despite their helpful perks. Of course, there's anecdotal evidence for both arguments, but 1 thing is certain. Klei is most interested in making content for everyone and not just a fraction of a fraction of the player base. 

 

20 hours ago, Shosuko said:

But when it comes to post planar those choices and others get stripped away.

The concern is way overblown. It's not like we went from 30 choices to 2 choices. By the time you defeat afw/cc, you're probably mostly using either a hambat or dark sword. As far as unique perks, the morning star has situational uses (for wet targets) and the thule club has a speed boost. I guess you can toss in the shield of terror but it's really not a late game item considering its low damage + low durability. That's pretty much your end game weapon set. Glass cutter is in there too but its low durability doesn't make it feasible for everyday use. 

So I don't know why we have to pretend like we went from a world where we had tons of choices to a world where we no longer have choices. We went from hambat/dark sword meta to brightshade sword/shadow reaper/howlitzer meta. Considering that this discussion is about to hit 6 pages, you'd think something apocalyptic happened to your choices when in reality we went from having 3 good choices to 3 good choices. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

I already addressed most of this in the comment you replied to.

Except you're wrong.  You can repeat yourself all you want, but you show no reason to convince me that planar is in any way important to literally *any* of this.

The new equipment is quite compelling without planar.  The Reaper is one of the most anticipated equipment's I've ever seen in DST - and not b/c its planar.  Stacking damage per hit and resetting if you get hit is a great mechanic to focus on a kiting play style.  Its repairable so I can easily carry the damage I need with me.  Add on the amazing scythe ability that cuts down on the tedious chore of gathering grass / twiggs / etc.  Its literally a dream item.

Planar adds nothing to this.

And really that's what it boils down to - planar adds nothing.  Nothing is made better b/c planar, only worse.  You don't feel stronger with planar, only "not weak."  You don't feel like you're making an interesting choice, you simple must pick it b/c the stats are so drastically gimped on old gear against the flood of invasive planar BS that you're just dumb if you don't.

Planar does nothing good for the game, or the player.  It adds nothing to the player experience or character fantasy.  All it does is nerf and remove things.  Ultimately it is nothing but a "feels bad" mechanic b/c if you don't choose to pick a lunar weapon / armor you will simply suffer for it - and not in the challenging "this is a survival game and I'm testing my limits" way like playing pacifist or doing scienceless ruins rush, but in the uninteresting "this fight is just longer for no reason" way.

25 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

The concern is way overblown. It's not like we went from 30 choices to 2 choices. By the time you defeat afw/cc, you're probably mostly using either a hambat or dark sword. As far as unique perks, the morning star has situational uses (for wet targets) and the thule club has a speed boost. I guess you can toss in the shield of terror but it's really not a late game item considering its low damage + low durability. That's pretty much your end game weapon set. Glass cutter is in there too but its low durability doesn't make it feasible for everyday use. 

Shield of Terror is a great comfort pick (or it was before planar.)  It hits the 51 damage point that often kills mobs in less hits.  Compared to the hambat you don't have to worry about decaying damage, or opposed to the dark sword you don't need to constantly hunt resources to keep the damage coming.  Almost everything in the game gives food, and you just feed the shield to keep going.  I found it preferable over both weapons late game unless I'm doing a solo raid boss type fight

Except that, ya know, that it gets absolutely gimped by planar now lol

And here is the thing - I really really like the new gear.  Armor suit bonuses, repairable gear, things that don't break at 0%, more interesting interactions like bouncing ranged damage, etc the items are actually really cool - and so are the fights.  The only problem with BS plants is how much of an absolute FLOOD they are, the actual fight its self is great!  The items are great!  Take planar out and we just have more options, not less.

The idea that Klei had no design space without planar nonsense is 100% a myth.  All of these could have been added to the game as it was, and they would still be considered a great next tier of gear.  We just wouldn't have to write off all the nifty gears that don't have planar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Please be aware that the content of this thread may be outdated and no longer applicable.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
  • Create New...