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Planer Damage should be removed. A suggestion and a change.


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58 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Planar adds nothing to this.

And really that's what it boils down to - planar adds nothing. 

Planar does nothing good for the game, or the player.  It adds nothing to the player experience or character fantasy.

Sure sure, planar accomplished nothing! But only if we conveniently ignore that the planar damage concept allowed the devs to add a new tier of equipment to the game without sacrificing the early game experience. 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

The idea that Klei had no design space without planar nonsense is 100% a myth. 

There's really nothing mythical about it. The notion is grounded in reality. Lots of players avoided the new content prior to this update even though these new amazing items existed prior to this past Thursday. 

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45 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

There's really nothing mythical about it. The notion is grounded in reality. Lots of players avoided the new content prior to this update even though these new amazing items existed prior to this past Thursday. 

That is a pretty crazy notion.  No one avoided this content.  On first release BS plants and moon terraforming were literally tearing up bases, and were the only mob that tried to force you to change gear.  We still changed gear lol  We like trying out new things.

Where do you get the idea that until this last Thursday update we avoided the new content?

Things were originally not very good b/c the ONLY thing on the table was planar nonsense.  Ironically as Klei added actual useful elements to these gears, not just planar whatever, they have picked up in use even more.

When I craft my Reaper I'm not thinking "oh boy planar damage now I'm in a new league," no.  What I'm thinking is "now my kiting will be rewarded, all those tank'n'spank noobs can shove off" lol

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46 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Sure sure, planar accomplished nothing! But only if we conveniently ignore that the planar damage concept allowed the devs to add a new tier of equipment to the game without sacrificing the early game experience.

It didn't though. They could have added it all anyways without planar mechanics. If they removed planar mechanics from everything, then modern content would still be only be available Y2 minimum and still be gated behind two of the hardest bosses in the game.

46 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

There's really nothing mythical about it. The notion is grounded in reality. Lots of players avoided the new content prior to this update even though these new amazing items existed prior to this past Thursday. 

Has it occurred to you that the reason players avoided it was because of planar mechanics?  If you where anyone but Wilson, Wortox, Wes, or WX; Planar mechanics where a pretty noticable hinderance. Either because your own modifiers didn't effect the planar damage, or because your damage came from something that couldn't hold a weapon. And that's not even mentioning the fact that brightshades were and still are some of the most hated mobs in DST. I could probably count the amount of people who actually like them on one hand.

Also keep in mind that all the QoL features we've been praising haven't actually been a thing for a good chunk of the rift's existence. Prior to the skill tree update, you needed a weapon's full corosponding set to get a damage boost, said said didn't have the other benefits that they now have such as insanity immunity or recoil damage. And planar gear broke as normal instead of being repairable.

Really all it had at the time was the alignment damage, sense even the bonus damage required you to give up both body slots, sacrificing the myrad of other options you might prefer to use instead. Rift weapons at the time couldn't stand on it's own two legs simply because it didn't have legs to stand on.

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I don't have much to say aside from noting that there are too many contradictory statements. 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

No one avoided this content. 

Yet the very next sentence, you provide reasons for avoiding the content. 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

On first release BS plants and moon terraforming were literally tearing up bases, and were the only mob that tried to force you to change gear.

 

 

 

You want to lecture me on how great side grades are

On 10/28/2023 at 12:59 PM, Shosuko said:

Nah people interact with side grades all the time. 

Nah see - side grades are great b/c they are options.

Yet when you are actually presented a side grade, you are quick to come up with excuses for why players wouldn't see the need to interact with it. 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Things were originally not very good b/c the ONLY thing on the table was planar nonsense. 

This just goes back to what I said earlier. It's not in Klei's best interests to create side-grade equipment that cater towards certain playstyles given their limited resources. Sure feels like I'm beating a dead horse at this point. 

 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Where do you get the idea that until this last Thursday update we avoided the new content?

It's not rocket science. New planar mobs, new equipment -> increased interaction with new content. The increase in interaction was driven by the introduction of more mobs with planar mechanics

 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Ironically as Klei added actual useful elements to these gears, not just planar whatever, they have picked up in use even more.

 

Very true, but the adoption rate was still significantly lower than when planar mobs were introduced, at least this is what I saw myself. 

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12 minutes ago, mykenception said:

Klei has invested waaay too deep with planar mechanics anyway

idk but it's pretty much highly impossible for them to just drop it because some forum poster says "I don't like it"

Yeah its not super easy to just uproot the work that has been done but also to make it a fun mechanic would be even more work. 

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20 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

It didn't though. They could have added it all anyways without planar mechanics. If they removed planar mechanics from everything, then modern content would still be only be available Y2 minimum and still be gated behind two of the hardest bosses in the game.

We're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about a scaling issue. You ignored that and brought up a timing issue.

20 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Has it occurred to you that the reason players avoided it was because of planar mechanics?  If you where anyone but Wilson, Wortox, Wes, or WX; Planar mechanics where a pretty noticable hinderance. Either because your own modifiers didn't effect the planar damage, or because your damage came from something that couldn't hold a weapon.

Planar mechanics were almost non-existent in the game. It was just brightshades and later the 2 cave critters. Unless you mean the new content (brightshades) wasn't rewarding. But I'm responding to Shosuko, who was saying that the new gear would have been compelling without planar mechanics. That's clearly not the case if all it took was a brightshade plant to make players think twice about acquiring the gear. 

 

20 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Rift weapons at the time couldn't stand on it's own two legs simply because it didn't have legs to stand on.

They have better legs to stand on now, and would make sense to use without planar mechanics, but it still wasn't a popular pick even after those updates. When Klei is about to introduce an entire new class of gear, the goal isn't to make it worthwhile for some people. It's to make it worthwhile for everyone. This isn't terraria cross-over side quest stuff; this is foundational stuff for core game play content that is yet to come. 

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On 10/28/2023 at 10:32 PM, Theukon-dos said:

My theory is that it's because of some kind of Idolization of Klei. A belief that don't starve is a good game, so anything they make must also be good.

It's really the only reason I Can think of.

For some reason, a lot of people attach themselves to a game and seem to take any criticism of the game as a slight against themself. It happens in every forum for every game. "Pay to win games suck! EA sucks! Oh, but my beloved Warframe isn't pay to win, it's just pay $1,000 to skip 7 years of waiting, that isn't pay to win, it's just pay to convenience and really they deserve the money since they work so hard." They can't separate criticism of the game from insults, and think that anyone who wants to improve the game is just being "mean" or "trollering" or whatever.

A great example is the comment right under yours responding to you. Does he see you point out that everyone in support of planar damage is making an illogical defense of it, and respond to that? Does he let you know how the seemingly nonsensical opposite land rhetoric actually makes sense? Does he do something to help you understand his position? No, he doesn't, because he doesn't have a position other than "I like this game, so this game is perfect". Instead he childishly copies what you said, but flips it to be backwards, not even understanding what you said and not even seeing that his backwards version makes no sense. He strawmans you, pretending that you're trying to silence people who like the game, but he refuses to speak up about his alleged like of the game. He's just being inflammatory, because he has no defense.

I don't think there is a defense of planar mechanics. The only honest thing I've seen anyone say to defend it is that they don't actually care very much, and just like it because it makes the weapons feel stronger (even though it isn't actually making the weapons stronger, and is just making everything else weaker).

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4 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

I don't have much to say aside from noting that there are too many contradictory statements. 

Not at all.  On release all we had were BS gear and BS plants.  Portals were tearing up bases and only brought 1 mob with planar - and ALSO - we still used the new gear b/c we like new things.

BUT - On release the only reason to use BS gear was planar damage, and b/c of this opinions on the gear was very low.  As they continued patching and adding real features BS gear has become a favorite.  Repairing, protection from dark, combo bonuses, etc all breathed live into otherwise dismal content.

Really all of the patches and upgrades since BS first launched have done nothing but prove that planar is not the reason anyone is enjoying this new content - mostly because the only time planar effects you is in a bad way.  We don't receive any boosts for using planar damage.  It serves strictly as a nerf to non-planar gear.  Its painfully obvious too.

Planar vs non-planar mob = same as always, nothing special.

Planar vs planar mob = same as always, nothing special.

Non-planar vs non-planar mob = same as always, nothing special

Non-planar vs planar mob = sudden massive nerfs to attack and defense out of no where.

See there is no case in which a player would "enjoy" planar except in concept.  On paper you might argue why planar is good, but in practice the only time we actually "interact" with planar is IF we use non-planar gear, or have a damage modifier.  It is nothing but a "thing bad" mechanic.

In fact planar is basically a bad jump-scare in a horror movie.  It doesn't actually scare you, it just startles you.  And on re-watch, knowing its there, it means even less.

----------------------------------------

Side grades are great and this: 

4 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

It's not in Klei's best interests to create side-grade equipment that cater towards certain playstyles given their limited resources

is literally the opposite of the case.

It is essential that Klei's create new monsters, items, resources and interactions that diversify the game by allowing and rewarding more diverse play styles.  This is essential because DST is a live service, co-operative, sandbox, survival game.  Monetization is almost exclusively on skin packs with no mechanical value attached to them whatsoever.  The only way DST makes money is if more people play, and keep playing the game.  This means it needs varied options and experiences to give players new things to do, and make players feel special and impactful in a server full of other players.

At its core what planar seeks to do is exactly this - it seeks to make available methods of playing the game that are not overshadowed by a Wolfgang + Darksword + Goat jelly.  But the problem with planar is not what it tries to do, rather its what it actually does.  It tries to reward non-damage stacking combat by simply nerfing damage stacking.  It tries to make us feel like we have progression by forcing us to use new gear if we want to interact with new content.

Unfortunately what it DOES is not this.  What it DOES is homogenize the caste reducing the variance experienced by character choice, coincidentally doing so in tandem with new armor sets that almost completely obfuscate the character both mechanically and visually reducing the variance we experience when playing the game.  What it DOES is create situations where a player is punished for doing the wrong thing, but it never creates a situation that rewards a player for doing the right thing.

1 hour ago, PetulantPansy said:

I'm responding to Shosuko, who was saying that the new gear would have been compelling without planar mechanics.

Again - We used it on release because it was new and we like new things.  It was not worth it on release because the only aspect it had was planar damage, which is pretty nonse.  NOW it would be loved without planar b/c it actually does something new and interesting.  It doesn't need to scale higher than previous gear to do this either.

You said

22 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

Lots of players avoided the new content prior to this update even though these new amazing items existed prior to this past Thursday. 

and I want to stick to this - why do you think players avoided this content until last Thursday's patch?

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1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

BUT - On release the only reason to use BS gear was planar damage, and b/c of this opinions on the gear was very low.  As they continued patching and adding real features BS gear has become a favorite.  Repairing, protection from dark, combo bonuses, etc all breathed live into otherwise dismal content.

It's progress but it's not enough progress. We went from a side grade option that was ignored because it didn't bring enough utility, to a side grade option that fit certain playstyles. Klei didn't put in this much time to make a QoL dark sword, QoL football helmet, etc. Besides, where would they even go from here, from a future update standpoint, if the foundation of upcoming content offered just QoL improvements on existing items and nothing else?

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Really all of the patches and upgrades since BS first launched have done nothing to prove that planar is not the reason anyone is enjoying this new content - mostly because the only time planar effects you is in a bad way.  We don't receive any boosts for using planar damage.  It serves strictly as a nerf to non-planar gear.  Its painfully obvious too.

Planar vs non-planar mob = same as always, nothing special.

Planar vs planar mob = same as always, nothing special.

Non-planar vs non-planar mob = same as always, nothing special

Non-planar vs planar mob = sudden massive nerfs to attack and defense.

The root of your problem with planar damage doesn't actually appear to have anything to do with planar damage. I read all this and it appears to me that the root problem you have with all this is that a new, better tier of equipment was introduced. We would be having the exact same conversation if planar damage didn't exist, but the brightshade sword did 80 damage, and all the new mobs were scaled accordingly. Except this reality would be even worse because 1. the early game would be a total joke and 2. damage multipliers are multiplicative so the existing imbalance we talked about gets even worse. Same logic would go for the protection gear. 

The fact that this is better equipment shouldn't be surprising at all. This is endgame content. Of course, you could also ask, "why not just actually make these side grade options and keep the damage output at 68". 

This is clearly endgame content and going from a dark sword to a slightly better dark sword is not satisfying at all. You beat all the "level 1" bosses and your reward is that you get stronger/more challenging mobs but your weapon pretty much stayed the same. Makes sense to anyone? Not really. 

At the end of the day, Klei put a lot of thought into this and it shows. After all this, you guys have yet to provide a better alternative. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

It is essential that Klei's create new monsters, items, resources and interactions that diversify the game by allowing and rewarding more diverse play styles.  At its core what planar seeks to do is exactly this - it seeks to make available methods of playing the game that are not overshadowed by a Wolfgang + Darksword + Goat jelly. 

Not quite. Planar damage enables the game to add more challenging content without sacrificing the early game. It addressed some gripes people had with some survivors becoming too strong for the constant but the main reason was the first thing I said. 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

It tries to reward non-damage stacking combat by simply nerfing damage stacking.

No better option. As mentioned previously, damage stacking leads to a wider range, the larger the base number you stack on gets. What hp do the devs realistically give a mob if the damage it eats can go from 60 (wes) to 320 (wolfgang+jelly) [base number was 80 for illustrative purposes] This isn't exactly related but of course the range gets even wider when you could have multiple players fighitng something and some (or all) of those players are using weaker equipment. 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

It tries to make us feel like we have progression by forcing us to use new gear if we want to interact with new content.

Brightshade gear is supposed to be a straight up higher tier of gear. This is what happens when a higher tier of gear is introduced

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Unfortunately what it DOES is not this.  What it DOES is homogenize the caste reducing the variance experienced by character choice, coincidentally doing so in tandem with new armor sets that almost completely obfuscate the character both mechanically and visually reducing the variance we experience when playing the game. 

True, but skill trees that are being rolled out alongside these updates negates this (minus the visual stuff)

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

What it DOES is create situations where a player is punished for doing the wrong thing, but it never creates a situation that rewards a player for doing the right thing.

This has always been the DST experience. The rewards were drops and not becoming a spooky ghost. I don't see how this is any different. 

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7 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

At the end of the day, Klei put a lot of thought into this and it shows. After all this, you guys have yet to provide a better alternative. 

 

I did in the beta at the very beginning of all of this, and really seeing how things have gone - I could deliver an "I told you so" to Klei as really planar has done nothing impressive.  The new gear is good because of the non-planar effects they bring, similarly the bosses are interesting and challenging because of their new attack patterns.  Nothing about planar is spicing up any of this.  If I had a toggle to turn planar on and off during your play through you literally might not even notice.

Planar is doomed from the start as a "core" of the game because the numbers just aren't interactive or engaging.  You either have it or you don't, and the fact is you just do kinda by default.  There is little incentive to go without it, and using it brings no risks.  We do nothing with these numbers.  Without additional real properties to the equipment they would always be bad.

The two ways I would go with this are either

1) Add more damage types so planar is not some outlier jump-scare at the end of the game.  A full combat rework would be needed for this, but it would introduce players to damage types as a fact early game and allow players to interact with the system all the way through.  More equipment could be spread through the entire play through from early to late with even a simple water => fire => wind => water cycle. Then planar could be introduced as the universally advantaged damage type for late game.  This would reward the player without needing to powercreep the game.  No more damage needs to be added, it simply becomes a universal weapon.  Then we get 2 options in end game, lunar and shadow.  Which you pick at that point determines what end game equipment you can access giving even more flavor to your world.

or

2) Simply make these planar weapons a special type of weapon with a higher base damage but uniquely do not interact with any type of damage modifications.  This rewards players who cleared the game on a character without a damage mod by letting them - in the end game - up their damage against the entire world in a way that takes the edge off of the need to character swap to a damage stacking character at any point, or feel particularly handicapped if they don't.  It gives the player a sense of power by upping the damage available against previous content but still creates a new ecosystem where the disparity between damage boosted characters and not are closer together to equalize the end game content.

Both of these would require a bit more work from Klei to do but really, if we're setting the stage for the end game era where the lore and tension ramps up.... shouldn't we actually set the stage so this all feels like a missing piece of a puzzle that has been missing all along instead of a tacked on?  Planar feels entirely a part from the rest of the world as is.

imo the best new content Klei has ever done was the ryws.  It reworked gardening in a way that literally everything else in the game needs, combat included.

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1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

I did in the beta at the very beginning of all of this, and really seeing how things have gone - I could deliver an "I told you so" to Klei as really planar has done nothing impressive.  The new gear is good because of the non-planar effects they bring, similarly the bosses are interesting and challenging because of their new attack patterns.  Nothing about planar is spicing up any of this.  If I had a toggle to turn planar on and off during your play through you literally might not even notice.

Planar is doomed from the start as a "core" of the game because the numbers just aren't interactive or engaging.  You either have it or you don't, and the fact is you just do kinda by default.  There is little incentive to go without it, and using it brings no risks.  We do nothing with these numbers.  Without additional real properties to the equipment they would always be bad.

But again, planar doesn't actually seem to be the problem with all the issues you directed towards it. The real issue is that a new class of stronger equipment was introduced, which in my opinion is completely commensurate with introducing end game content. Planar just scaled the equipment so it didn't impact the early game, and rebalanced the damage output between stronger and weaker survivors to an extent. That's really all that's going on. If we're talking about a world without planar, these new weapons would deal more damage. It's all relative. It's not a mistake that a brightshade sword does more damage to a planar entity than a dark sword. 

 

Your ideas aren't bad but they completely miss the context. Players wanted more challenges, more content (endgame to be specific, along with some of the "gaps" [like caves/ocean]), and more lore. The game was already confusing enough for new players. So a wholesale change to the entire game just doesn't meet the criteria for what's going on.

 

At the end of the day, planar mechanics does a better job at accomplishing these objectives. It left the early game completely alone. It introduced challenges/strong mobs/equipment for the endgame. It's doing exactly what it was designed to do. 

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30 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

The real issue is that a new class of stronger equipment was introduced,

Not at all.  The new weapons aren't actually much stronger.  Not enough that we couldn't choose among all the options what we wanted to use.  In most cases they basically feel like we just switched from one weapon to another, like dark sword to glass cutter - another example that illustrates how lackluster simple numbers can be.  We need interesting things, and simply doing damage is not interesting.

Absolutely nothing about planar is "challenging."  Not even close.  Planar means nothing about the new gear being interesting, or the new enemies being challenging.  That is a fact.  Without planar, they would be just as challenging.  Literally the same fight in fact.

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I wouldn't take away planar damage. There's still value in the dark sword later on.

I'll tell you what's unfortunate about brightshade sword on wigfrid. It deals 77 total damage and mixed with the brightshade helm, it deals only 87 damage. 

I travel a lot without armor as wigfrid and the sword is just terrible value. 

 

I hope she gets her own planar craft that deals 85 damage at minimum without armor.

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26 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Not at all.  The new weapons aren't actually much stronger. 

They are on a relative basis. 

 

28 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Absolutely nothing about planar is "challenging."  Not even close.  Planar means nothing about the new gear being interesting, or the new enemies being challenging.  That is a fact.  Without planar, they would be just as challenging.  Literally the same fight in fact.

Yeah, let's be clear on that. Planar itself is first and foremost a scaling mechanism. It's not the challenge itself (but challenging stuff is based off of the stuff it enables). 

 

As far as our conversation goes, it really boils down to 1 simple question: should DST introduce stronger weapons after defeating CC/AFW to take on content that will be introduced post-AFW/CC (and by stronger, I don't mean QoL updates on existing equipment, I mean straight up higher damage)?

Bro what happened. 

 

On 10/27/2023 at 11:54 PM, Shosuko said:

The only thing planar does is nerf pre-existing items.  It does not enhance anything, it just forces you to change gear.

dude a 30% damage nerf with ZERO upsides isn't a choice.

 

44 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Not at all.  The new weapons aren't actually much stronger.  Not enough that we couldn't choose among all the options what we wanted to use. 

 

 

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Just now, Shosuko said:

If you don't understand the context of those statements, then you're playing willful ignorance.

You tell me 1 day the planar concept reduced the choices of weapons to just planar weapons. Reduced variety, etc. The next day you tell me the new weapons aren't much stronger and we can still choose among other options. Which is it?

 

It's still not too late to answer the real question I asked earlier on whether stronger weapons should be introduced. That's really what it all boils down to. 

 

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47 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

You tell me 1 day the planar concept reduced the choices of weapons to just planar weapons. Reduced variety, etc. The next day you tell me the new weapons aren't much stronger and we can still choose among other options. Which is it?

 

It's still not too late to answer the real question I asked earlier on whether stronger weapons should be introduced. That's really what it all boils down to. 

 

You really claim to not understand the context of that??  really???  Are you a troll b/c seriously...  this is getting ridiculous. 

I've said - all along - that removing planar, simply deleting it would not actually effect the game.  It has so little positive effect you wouldn't even notice if it were gone - except that your options would directly increase.

You've said multiple times that planar is needed so we can get "stronger" with new gear and more "challenging" bosses.  I contest it is not needed at all, for any of it.  Because

1) The only thing planar does is nerf pre-existing items.  It does not enhance anything, it just forces you to change gear.

and if we just removed it, and left literally everything else the same

2) The new weapons aren't actually much stronger.  Not enough that we couldn't choose among all the options what we wanted to use.

Just like if we all chose between the 51 damage shield of terror, or the 50-60-ish damage ham bat, or the raw 68 damage glass cutter - and for different people we will get different answers.

It is a completely artificial divide.  Nothing in the new content so far has actually utilized planar damage for anything except as a stamp of approval for "real end game gear."  Planar adds nothing to the challenge of bosses because the planar equipment we have is good.  Its actually still an upgrade from what we have now for many people - like if we literally just deleted planar as a damage type most characters would still be fighting with BS and tatters gear b/c of all of the actual important and valuable things they do.  No one is excited for the Reaper having planar, they're excited because it reaps crops, because it stacks damage, and because it talks to you when you're not looking.

47 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

It's still not too late to answer the real question I asked earlier on whether stronger weapons should be introduced. That's really what it all boils down to. 

Of course there is no reason to not introduce stronger weapons.  I already explained that in my previous post as well so I'll just quote myself from there...

Quote

Simply make these planar weapons a special type of weapon with a higher base damage but uniquely do not interact with any type of damage modifications.

There is a LOT of design space without needing to invalidate older gear.  Its common to see threads pop up here with discussions about how to improve options that people want to use that are struggling.  The bat bat, strident trident, thulecite club etc - People want to use them.  Klei would do a lot better simply re-working combat then trying to patch this nons on the back of the game.

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I feel like I'm misunderstanding something, but I thought the point of Planar damage is to decrease the effectiveness of cheese strats (hordes, gunpowder, etc) on the harder endgame content while specifically allowing it be be used on base bosses. To which it does the job fine. 

However, older conventional weapons are hit as collateral which I think could be fixed. I think adding some ability to deal planar damage with non-planar weapons would help a lot, but I vehemently disagree that it's removal would be beneficial.

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I'll just leave this here as I don't want to reply to everyone I might want to reach:

Planar itself might seem like a necessity, and in reality it might aswell be, however the way it was introduced is not great for anyone involved, the player gets punished for doing the wrong thing while also being punished for doing the right thing in some cases because most planar weapons deal normal damage + planar damage, meaning in the end they deal LESS damage to normal enemies when damage increasing multipliers are added compared to a darksword, and also planar enemies because the normal damage of the weapon gets reduced meaning you don't even get to deal the full 68 base damage of the BS Sword.

The way to fixing this while still keeping a 'planar' tag on weapons would (from my point of view) be to make so planar weapons just have a 'planar' tag which would increase the damage they deal to planar enemies by 17/34 while normal weapons would still deal their normal damages. This way, you wouldn't be punished for using previous weapons and you would be handsomely rewarded with a damage boost against the new enemies when using the new weapons, alongside that the 'early game' would be preserved without damage done to it. Now, this might seem like it's just the same thing, in reality it's not, and it actually adds 'progression' to an extent.

Meanwhile with multipliers I really have no idea as of this moment on how this system should tackle them, that's what Klei gets for introducing such strong multipliers so quickly and then trying desperately to nerf them back, it really is a self created problem all those years ago when they added Volt Goat Chaud-Froid.

That's it from me, thank you for reading.

 

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3 hours ago, WenericMember said:

I feel like I'm misunderstanding something, but I thought the point of Planar damage is to decrease the effectiveness of cheese strats (hordes, gunpowder, etc) on the harder endgame content while specifically allowing it be be used on base bosses. To which it does the job fine. 

However, older conventional weapons are hit as collateral which I think could be fixed. I think adding some ability to deal planar damage with non-planar weapons would help a lot, but I vehemently disagree that it's removal would be beneficial.

Cheese strats are unaffected because they're cheese. It doesn't matter if it takes slightly longer when you aren't engaging with the fight lol. If they don't want people to cheese fights they can easily introduce anti-cheese mechanics, they've done it several times already. And they could do it more, but they choose not to because they want you to be able to cheese the fights.

I've never thought that planar damage was to prevent cheese, and I've never seen them say anything like that. 

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12 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Simply make these planar weapons a special type of weapon with a higher base damage but uniquely do not interact with any type of damage modifications.  This rewards players who cleared the game on a character without a damage mod by letting them - in the end game - up their damage against the entire world in a way that takes the edge off of the need to character swap to a damage stacking character at any point, or feel particularly handicapped if they don't.  It gives the player a sense of power by upping the damage available against previous content but still creates a new ecosystem where the disparity between damage boosted characters and not are closer together to equalize the end game content.

isn't this what the planar weapons from a conceptual viewpoint do? they already do the highest damage of any weapon in the game and barely interact with any damage modifiers

planar entity defense is admittedly kind of pointless though since we already have these new high tier planar weapons. all it does is nerf the already existing high damage strategies, which isn't really fun and just adds artificial progression to enemies. planar weapons already have the lunar/shadow tag damage modifiers, higher damage, and ease of access. adding planar entity protection on top of all that is very excessive and just harms the characters that had their own combat options :c

i think enemies dealing planar damage and players needing planar defense are ultimately fine though. it indirectly nerfs the high tier armor (night and marble armor specifically) that people would usually have in the end game. allowing enemies to be able to actually damage you and discouraging tanking is really cool (and dispels all the tension around glass cannon characters being able to 'tank' with high tier armors). adding more damage to attacks was a kind of boring approach and never really solved the issues that the high tier armors presented, so having a unique terraria-style defense option is a very cool approach to the issue.

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Let's get on the same page. 

21 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

I read all this and it appears to me that the root problem you have with all this is that a new, better tier of equipment was introduced.

I fully meant that against a planar enemy, planar weapons straight up dealt more damage. Planar armor allowed you to take less damage. 

Your response:

19 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Not at all.  The new weapons aren't actually much stronger.  Not enough that we couldn't choose among all the options what we wanted to use.  In most cases they basically feel like we just switched from one weapon to another, like dark sword to glass cutter - another example that illustrates how lackluster simple numbers can be.

I took this to mean your other standard options. Maybe you were trying to retort that if planar didn't exist and we're just talking about an extra 10% damage to a certain faction. That's clearly not what I meant but it ultimately doesn't matter. 

 

At the end of the day, the problem here is that you are misunderstanding what planar does. 

You keep saying it does nothing, while in reality it allowed for the introduction of a new class of equipment that is a step above existing gear. (to spell it out very clearly, using a dark sword and brightshade sword against a planar enemy does not yield the same results; the brightshade sword is clearly better). 

 

You say you don't like this, and that it limits options, etc. Your proposal is to just strip planar out and leave everything else as is. So I take that to mean that you don't like that a new class of stronger weapons was added. Again, planar isn't the issue here. The brightshade sword can deal just 85 physical damage and you'd still tell me the exact same stuff: 

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

1) The only thing planar does is nerf pre-existing items.  It does not enhance anything, it just forces you to change gear.

The reality you propose isn't a problem. It really just comes down to a difference of opinion. We already had a long conversation over this. But you would be fine with just side grade options. I said that this isn't the best way to proceed because 1. it limits interaction with a completely new horizon of content 2. you eventually will hit a saturation point since you only have 1 head/body/hand slot 3. doesn't feel commensurate with what we're working towards [more challenging content, endgame stuff]. 

I respect your take on this issue, and it's just a difference of preference/opinion. You are fine with X for various reasons. I'm not fine with X for a different set of opinions. But such a difference of opinion doesn't mean that there is something so fundamentally wrong with the planar mechanic that it needs to be completely removed. 

 

But then.... you give me this answer:

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Of course there is no reason to not introduce stronger weapons. 

This is literally what planar brought you. A stronger weapon. Stronger gear. It just didn't touch the early game. So if anything, the way the stronger gear was introduced should be applauded by you because it did introduce stronger gear but more importantly, it didn't mess with your option set in the pre-rift world. Since you love having options, the existing options you adored prior to the rift world are still viable in the old world, and may in various instances still be the best option to tackle something, despite the fact that there is stronger gear that is introduced post rift-world. 

 

So it really all came down to the question I asked below, but you pretty much gave me both answers. Your fix for the current planar world is to remove the numerical damage/defense gap between planar and non-planar, thus removing a stronger tier of gear, and moving it back down to the highest existing tier of equipment. 

Yet when I ask you the question straight up, you wouldn't mind having stronger gear. /confused

19 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

As far as our conversation goes, it really boils down to 1 simple question: should DST introduce stronger weapons after defeating CC/AFW to take on content that will be introduced post-AFW/CC (and by stronger, I don't mean QoL updates on existing equipment, I mean straight up higher damage)?

 

This conversation would probably be more productive if you could be more consistent on your answer to this, along with an appreciation for the fact that planar did add something to the game instead of "nothing", as you keep claiming. It added a higher tier of gear to the game. 

 

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2 hours ago, PetulantPansy said:

This conversation would probably be more productive if you could be more consistent on your answer to this, along with an appreciation for the fact that planar did add something to the game instead of "nothing", as you keep claiming. It added a higher tier of gear to the game. 

 

My opinion is consistent.  Saying "of course there is no reason to not introduce stronger weapons" is not a declaration that I desire stronger weapons.  I'm only saying it really won't break the game to have - after AFW and CC are defeated - a weapon that breaks the 68 damage cap of a dark sword.  idk why people feel this is some holy unsurpassable number but really, after beating these bosses there is no reason not to say "Hey, you completed all of these things, here is something actually great as a reward for making it this far."

There are ways to make it not be problematic for everything else without mandating the entire game be re-written to include planar.

But instead we got planar.  And we're going to keep getting planar b/c everything needs to have it now

Gunpowder is nerfed => better make a planar bomb.

Wolfgang is nerfed => better dump planar damage in his skill tree

Wanda is nerfed => tier 2 alarming clock incoming!!

Abigail? => GOGO PLANAR FLOWER!!

Of course Beefalo are nerfed too => I wonder when planar saddle will come out...

That's the path we're on.  In order to maintain the same level of options that make up a lot of what we actually do in the game everything needs to be pushed into this new system.  And what will have changed as more and more options get the good 'ol planar copy/ paste?  In the end, nothing.

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Whatever bar of "creativity" anyone thinks held the game back, planar is not opening that up.  BS gear already received a lot of negative feedback b/c on release it was just a planar darksword, glass cutter 2.0.  It failed at that point and Klei had to actually get creative and make something cool.  They succeeded - the new gear turned into something that is actually interesting along side everything that exists in the game.

But planar is there still, a curse on new content that needs to spread...  yet if it were deleted nothing of value would be lost.

New tier of gear?  Delete planar and the new gear is still a new tier of gear.

More challenging bosses?  Delete planar and these bosses are still challenging...

X thing needed to be nerfed?  Just wait until planar X thing comes out lol

And what happens when they feel their creativity is stifled again?  SUPERplanar to the rescue! smdh

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2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

But instead we got planar.  And we're going to keep getting planar b/c everything needs to have it now

Gunpowder is nerfed => better make a planar bomb.

Wolfgang is nerfed => better dump planar damage in his skill tree

Wanda is nerfed => tier 2 alarming clock incoming!!

Abigail? => GOGO PLANAR FLOWER!!

Of course Beefalo are nerfed too => I wonder when planar saddle will come out...

That's the path we're on.  In order to maintain the same level of options that make up a lot of what we actually do in the game everything needs to be pushed into this new system.  And what will have changed as more and more options get the good 'ol planar copy/ paste?  In the end, nothing.

Because it's not just a copy/paste. They're effectively reworks that addressed existing issues with them and as you noted earlier, provided other QoL features. Planar bomb isn't just planar + gunpowder. It's toss-able now too. Wolfgang planar rebalance reduced the gap in damage output between him and Wilson even after the skill tree update. Darts are way too expensive/tedious to craft if you're not wicker + what on earth do you do with all the hounds teeth -> howlitzer. Wanda's clock - it should adjust the cost of using it to be much higher, to reflect how broken the clock itself is. While planar can certainly enable the boring copy/paste exercise where you just take what's existing, rework the numbers and add a planar tag to it, that's largely not what's been going on. These items have also had other attributes added to them to address existing gripes/issues with them that have nothing to do with planar. Of course, why can't we just have all this without planar. That part is addressed at the bottom. 

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Whatever bar of "creativity" anyone thinks held the game back, planar is not opening that up

Except it provides cover to rework existing weapons/combat system. Besides, we're only addressing directly combat and how planar can affect weapon output numbers. It's probably not going to happen but the avenue for adjusting the balance between physical/planar output, and the resistance to each in future bosses is there. That could create all types of interesting interactions where you'll have to make choices. 

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

But planar is there still, a curse on new content that needs to spread...  yet if it were deleted nothing of value would be lost.

Here's what you lose:

1. Stronger tier of gear. Without planar, you're just left with QoL improvements on existing gear. While that in itself is not an issue, given the context of  a Constant that is supposed to be more challenging, it doesn't make sense that all you get is QoL improvements to existing gear.  

2. The creation of new mobs/bosses that are blatantly stronger than whatever existed pre-rift. Ex. normal bearger gets killed easily by a handful of treeguards. Armored bearger needs 30+ to kill him. Remove planar and they no longer have planar defense so they're just normal mobs/bosses with a different attack pattern. 

3. Limited freedom to add new gear that's strong but doesn't simultaneously make the pre-rift world a joke

4. All the new content being developed will be stuck within the constraints of the existing constant, where you still have to account for someone using 5 stacks of gunpowder, woodie summoning 20 tree guards, someone befriending 10 rock lobsters, high damage multipliers, etc. Good luck building "challenging" content in that universe. 

 

And what do you lose by keeping planar?

1. Optionality. The pre-rift options are no longer viable in a planar environment. 

Yet you say that just the QoL improvements are good enough on some of the new gear to place them in a tier on their own. This could be true for some gear but not others. But the bottom line is that you didn't completely lose your pre-rift world option set because of planar when it's the QoL improvements that no longer made those options attractive. 

2. Limited surprises. The unknown in DST is exciting but it's fairly obvious that all the survivors will be getting planar related skills when their time comes. 

 

Especially considering that this is just the 2nd/3rd update (of probably many) in the rift set and you already have decent planar options being built out, the "inability" to use pre-rift options just doesn't strike me as particularly concerning. 

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