After so much talk about Power Creep, here we are again.

[Scrimbles]

Every single time a new refresh came out (after the first couple), I recall myself and many others bringing up the fact that there was a pattern of over buffing and over stuffing characters kits, without properly compensating their downsides.

Years passed of the same complaints, and every new refresh came out with the same problems, and now here we are again, every character is seeming to get another round of objective buffs, with no consideration for balancing their downsides.

I just want to know why? Why ignore all this feedback? I'm not going to pretend I'm entitled to change just because I ask for it, but is there not room for things to be new, fresh, and fun, while also being balanced?

Recently, the forums have often talked about power creep, the idea that slowly but surely mechanics in the game become stronger and stronger to make new content worth playing, while invalidating old content, thus requiring old content to be buffed. This is exactly what we have been seeing now with every refresh, and we're going for a SECOND ROUND of it?

I feel like I've been shouting at a waterfall for years. I don't even expect anything to change, I'm just so baffled.

I'm frustrated, I'm sad, and frankly, disappointed. I've long since come to terms with the fact that nothing is going to change, the game I loved isn't going to come back, and the characters I liked to play will be made overpowered compared to their previous states.

I just want to express my utter disappointment. I hope everyone who doesn't care about balance enjoys their content, but I'm just done at this point. I don't care about arguments, I don't care about anyone who says "lmao bye". This is a message to Klei, and no one else. You could say I'm being overly dramatic, and I'm glad that you haven't spent over a decade of your life following a game you love slowly turn into something you loathe.

[WhackE]

I'm so jaded to all this new stuff that I don't even care anymore. It's hard to care when all the old developers have moved on, and the new ones aren't making the same game anymore.

[goblinball]

I will never understand ppl like you who prioritize statistical balance over fun

yeah the new skill trees make the characters alot more powerful but who cares, they’re fun

as long as you aren’t killing bosses in literal seconds and there is still some semblance of challenge then it’s fine. “Balance” doesn’t matter as much as you ppl say it does, especially when making things balanced can often make things less fun

fun value is ultimately the most important thing imo and as long as the skill tree perks are fun then they’re a good addition there’s not much more to it

i know a lot of ppl enjoy dst because of its “uncompromising” challenge but these new skill tree perks (or at least, the super powerful ones ppl actually care about) are pretty late game when enemies get stronger to balance it out so like this is just basic progression lol it doesn’t mean all challenge is gone forever 

 

[Theukon-dos]

2 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I will never understand ppl like you who prioritize statistical balance over fun

yeah the new skill trees make the characters alot more powerful but who cares, they’re fun

as long as you aren’t killing bosses in literal seconds and there is still some semblance of challenge then it’s fine. “Balance” doesn’t matter as much as you ppl say it does, especially when making things balanced can often make things less fun

fun value is ultimately the most important thing imo and as long as the skill tree perks are fun then they’re a good addition there’s not much more to it

 

Balance absolutely is important to fun. Yes it's not the biggest thing in the world when not talking about PvP games. But the two absolutely can and should co-exist. 

[Antynomity]

I honestly miss characters having meaningful downsides, even if only a few of them had them and some of them still have them.

That doesn't mean I'm not excited though, some of the skills seem really fun, even if a little bit too powerful.

[00petar00]

Powercreep will happen over time as game develops, DST has done a good job avoiding it as we have been using ham bats, dark swords and football helmets for so many years.

I don't really mind and actually think that these skill trees are a step in the right direction to differentiate players that pick the same character.

Woodie has been suffering since moon storms and Wicker's lunar grimoire and you were discouraged from having permanent light just because you don't want to be rude a player. This is finally solved, he still needs to make a choice and give up on his other skill tree tree abilities if playing on a public server long enough for people to get the books or activate the storms.

Woodie's wereforms were almost never worth using, now they are an option.

Wolfgang has been lacking in damage with the planar system and this has also been solved.

I know that a lot of Wormwood mains will dislike the skill tree as they don't think he should have that much to do with plants but this will at least cement him as the farmer character so players aren't guessing on what role he should fill and this is the reason I haven't played him much, now if I decide to farm I will pick him.

[Duck986]

Just wanna say I totally feel you. That's how I am after From Beyond arc has started to roll out - everything since then feels out of place. Planar damage, base destruction, mobs that supposed to be a threat but either just an annoyance or just spawn in one particular point, skill trees which make a survival game look like an RPG...

I already said that, but I will repeat it one more time - selling yourself shuts off that part of a brain responsible for thinking. And I understand Klei lack money, but I hope I'm not the only one who noticed that after Klei have signed a contract with one of the (if not the) biggest Chinese corporations, the overall quality of the updates has dropped drastically.

People hate me when I use other games for comparison like Factorio and Terraria, and mods like Feast and Famine and Uncompromising Mode, but it's not about comparing different genres - it's about comparing the balancing (mostly) and financial strategies. If you look at DST 5 years before that - you would consider that game a 7th circle of hell, because almost every update added more and more power to every character, especially with reworks. And now Wickerbottom from solo DS looks like a useless pile of garbage with its 5 books compared to Wickerbottom from DST being a literal God with her 17 books that can control the weather, light and the Moon itself.

[Masked Koopa]

I really like it, personally. The prospect of new items and perks for existing characters that isn't in the rework format is really enticing because it can offer some more out-there and wacky perks. Reworks were perhaps over-concerned with balance wheras these are a chance for Klei to go buck-wild without forcing the perks on people who don't want them.

[Popian]

I recall seeing more posts asking for power than not. Maybe that is a problem with responding after the fact.

[Scrimbles]

16 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I will never understand ppl like you who prioritize statistical balance over fun

yeah the new skill trees make the characters alot more powerful but who cares, they’re fun

as long as you aren’t killing bosses in literal seconds and there is still some semblance of challenge then it’s fine. “Balance” doesn’t matter as much as you ppl say it does, especially when making things balanced can often make things less fun

fun value is ultimately the most important thing imo and as long as the skill tree perks are fun then they’re a good addition there’s not much more to it

i know a lot of ppl enjoy dst because of its “uncompromising” challenge but these new skill tree perks (or at least, the super powerful ones ppl actually care about) are pretty late game when enemies get stronger to balance it out so like this is just basic progression lol it doesn’t mean all challenge is gone forever 

 

Balance and fun are not mutually exclusive, if it was, how do you explain people liking Wolfgang now more than ever, even though he's considered objectively less powerful?

Did you ever consider that more challenge, more risks, more danger can be fun too? That you need a balance between highs and lows to create a satisfying gameplay loop?

[Mysterious box]

12 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I will never understand ppl like you who prioritize statistical balance over fun

yeah the new skill trees make the characters alot more powerful but who cares, they’re fun

as long as you aren’t killing bosses in literal seconds and there is still some semblance of challenge then it’s fine. “Balance” doesn’t matter as much as you ppl say it does, especially when making things balanced can often make things less fun

fun value is ultimately the most important thing imo and as long as the skill tree perks are fun then they’re a good addition there’s not much more to it

i know a lot of ppl enjoy dst because of its “uncompromising” challenge but these new skill tree perks (or at least, the super powerful ones ppl actually care about) are pretty late game when enemies get stronger to balance it out so like this is just basic progression lol it doesn’t mean all challenge is gone forever 

 

Don't get me wrong I was and am hyped about some of the changes but you have to realize an balance is one of the most important factors in designing a fun game and don't starve together is taking huge leaps toward being completely unbalanced it's not even about uncompromising vs casual anymore we're deleting threats left and right while leaving nothing in their wake.

 

[Swiyss]

19 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Balance absolutely is important to fun. Yes it's not the biggest thing in the world when not talking about PvP games. But the two absolutely can and should co-exist. 

how do you just put an argument without backing it up tho. explain yourself further or don't even opiniate.

if you want a challenge just play wes. Have you ever solo'd every boss in the game with wes in a speedrun? then don't complain about "balance" when the only thing it will change if the game is "balanced" is you'll stop being jealous of people having fun with their character and their playstyle while you're there wimping about your "unbalanced" character in a non pvp-game. 

can you imagine having content for free and still complain? I fell like you people need to touch grass or something. Created a stigma in your heads about the game and are now trying to force the developers to act a certain way about absolutely everything if one single thing is not remotely perfect.

[Primalflower]

17 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

how do you explain people liking Wolfgang now more than ever, even though he's considered objectively less powerful?

I would sooner say that wolfgang was streamlined and easier to understand, rather than nerfed or made any less powerful. Wolfgang might have received a speed debuff, but at the same time, his damage multiplier was made entirely consistent rather than ceasing to be 2x the moment that his hunger dropped below 100%. His hunger debuff, too, was done away with. Speed isn't everything, and even disregarding the fact that wolfgang is used for a majority of boss speedruns and all around was buffed, even if wolfgang *is* less powerful than before, I don't think that's why people like him more, you don't play wolfgang to make the game more challenging. I think its because changes were made to simplify his 'moveset' and make him more, for lack of a better word, friendly, of a character.

[Scrimbles]

13 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

how do you just put an argument without backing it up tho. explain yourself further or don't even opiniate.

if you want a challenge just play wes. Have you ever solo'd every boss in the game with wes in a speedrun? then don't complain about "balance" when the only thing it will change if the game is "balanced" is you'll stop being jealous of people having fun with their character and their playstyle while you're there wimping about your "unbalanced" character in a non pvp-game. 

can you imagine having content for free and still complain? I fell like you people need to touch grass or something. Created a stigma in your heads about the game and are now trying to force the developers to act a certain way about absolutely everything if one single thing is not remotely perfect.

I can't play old Maxwell without modding the game.

I can't play old Woodie without modding the game.

I don't have a choice without doing it myself.

Can you imagine having content that actively makes the game easier, and then telling others that they should stop complaining that what they liked no longer exists?

Can you imagine not reading someones entire post, who in it they say "I'm not going to act entitled and expect change just because i ask for it", then telling them they are entitled?

Could you IMAGINE being that kind of a person? Who walks into a thread they have no care about, haven't read, don't agree with, and to have the audacity to tell them to go outside and touch grass?

Could you imagine being the kind of person you are.

[Theukon-dos]

12 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

how do you just put an argument without backing it up tho. explain yourself further or don't even opiniate.

Can I do it in the morning? I've spent the last 3 hours reviewing this update and I still need to proof read everything. 

[goblinball]

25 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

an balance is one of the most important factors in designing a fun game

It really isn’t lol

I used to be big into terraria and its modding scene and let me tell you if there’s one thing I learned from that is prioritizing balance just makes things less fun

terraria mods like the calamity mod would nerf tons of stuff such as mounts and multiclassing and self healing along with a ton of weapons in the name of perfect balance and all it did was make all of those items and play styles less fun since part of the reason why they were fun was because of how strong and actually usable they were

don’t get me wrong you do need some balance in a game I’m not asking for pure chaos but like you guys are overhyping it way too much

26 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Did you ever consider that more challenge, more risks, more danger can be fun too? That you need a balance between highs and lows to create a satisfying gameplay loop?

I literally discussed this in my original post

The big late game skill tree perks that ppl actually care about are fine since they’re late game, some even being post cc/fuelweaver. Late game threats are stronger than earlygame stuff obviously, so late game characters being stronger to compensate is fine

like when bright shades first came out everyone was complaining because at the time they were so powerful. I think them getting nerfed a bit was still the right call but I don’t think ppl would’ve been complaining about them as much if we had access to all the new character skill trees and the void stuff before the bright shades were added, since they definitely help.

 

 

[Guille6785]

22 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

how do you explain people liking Wolfgang now more than ever, even though he's considered objectively less powerful?

???????????

[Scrimbles]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I would sooner say that wolfgang was streamlined and easier to understand, rather than nerfed or made any less powerful. Wolfgang might have received a speed debuff, but at the same time, his damage multiplier was made entirely consistent rather than ceasing to be 2x the moment that his hunger dropped below 100%. His hunger debuff, too, was done away with. Speed isn't everything, and even disregarding the fact that wolfgang is used for a majority of boss speedruns and all around was buffed, even if wolfgang *is* less powerful than before, I don't think that's why people like him more, you don't play wolfgang to make the game more challenging. I think its because changes were made to simplify his 'moveset' and make him more, for lack of a better word, friendly, of a character.

I'll take my words from someone who I know plays a heck of a lot more Wolfgang than I do, and say that maintaining his mightiness is a much easier task, but not by much, since hunger is very easy to maintain.

And speed is a pretty major stat in Don't Starve, the combat revolves almost entirely around kiting, and precise timing. Being able to influence that timing is a pretty massive thing, especially without doing anything but having high hunger, a relatively easier task for an experienced player.

[Swiyss]

1 minute ago, Scrimbles said:

I can't play old Maxwell without modding the game.

I can't play old Woodie without modding the game.

I don't have a choice without doing it myself.

Can you imagine having content that actively makes the game easier, and then telling others that they should stop complaining that what they liked no longer exists?

I think that is a YOU problem. Try losing your parents first before complaining about not everything being permanent and blaming on the developers.

70 people being happy out of a 100 over 30 people being happy out of a 100 is a net-positive.

I think you should just change YOUR perspective and try to find the good things about it rather than sitting on a same problem when it can't be changed (you'll forever feel doomed if you keep reminicing memories of old "balanced" characters).

Old maxwell was a different time, old woodie was also a different time. But you can't seem to grasp that.

Please also, elaborate further on the "not compensating the downsides issue". And don't use your stupid stigma over facts and emotions please cause then you'll never feel wrong.

[Scrimbles]

1 minute ago, Guille6785 said:

???????????

Great argument, thanks for coming. You really contributed a lot here today.

[Masked Koopa]

6 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

I can't play old Maxwell without modding the game.

I can't play old Woodie without modding the game.

I don't have a choice without doing it myself.

Can you imagine having content that actively makes the game easier, and then telling others that they should stop complaining that what they liked no longer exists?
 

I'm sorry if I'm missing something here, but don't the skill trees address your concerns, at least in terms of current woodie/wormwood/wolfgang and those in the beta? This seems like an odd avenue to approach this matter from, because to me it implies that klei has recognised your concerns, at least to some degree.

[Scrimbles]

1 minute ago, xDpromonick9 said:

I think that is a YOU problem. Try losing your parents first before complaining about not everything being permanent and blaming on the developers.

70 people being happy out of a 100 over 30 people being happy out of a 100 is a net-positive.

I think you should just change YOUR perspective and try to find the good things about it rather than sitting on a same problem when it can't be changed (you'll forever feel doomed if you keep reminicing memories of old "balanced" characters).

Old maxwell was a different time, old woodie was also a different time. But you can't seem to grasp that.

Please also, elaborate further on the "not compensating the downsides issue". And don't use your stupid stigma over facts and emotions please cause then you'll never feel wrong.

Excuse me? "Try losing your parents first before complaining about not everything being permenant?"

If someone kills my parents, do I THANK them for providing me with "new content"?

Do I thank them because someone else might be happy that my parents are dead?

What is wrong with you? Why would you post that?

[Primalflower]

6 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

And speed is a pretty major stat in Don't Starve, the combat revolves almost entirely around kiting, and precise timing. Being able to influence that timing is a pretty massive thing, especially without doing anything but having high hunger, a relatively easier task for an experienced player.

the realistic answer i have for you is that the majority of kiting patterns aren't going to be made different by the type of speedboost that wolfgang was afforded, and the ones that are, ...aren't.. really gonna be worth it to go out of your way to go for, unless you're doing some kind of speedrun. Speed is important, sure, in the sense that it feels nice to be able to get from point A to point B in a shorter amount of time, but I wouldn't say anything above default speed (or cane speed in the edge case that is the shadow pieces) is going to be super worthwhile.

I forgot to mention, as well, that wolfgang received a major buff in the way of getting 'work' done quicker, which should certainly be considered when we talk about wolfgang being more or less powerful pre rework.

[Swiyss]

3 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Excuse me? "Try losing your parents first before complaining about not everything being permenant?"

If someone kills my parents, do I THANK them for providing me with "new content"?

Do I thank them because someone else might be happy that my parents are dead?

What is wrong with you? Why would you post that?

I guess you also don't know what an analogy is. 

[Baark0]

3 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

If someone kills my parents, do I THANK them for providing me with "new content"?

Orphanage DLC unlocked