After so much talk about Power Creep, here we are again.

[Milordo]

What can I say more than what it's already said in this post. I feel you @Scrimbles and I feel everyone who is angry/opposite/disagree for what is happening. The most I can do is giving my reactions to bump the post and hope some concerns are heard on Klei.

[-Variant]

29 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

That's kinda egoistic and not fine IN MY OPINION. The devs should do what they feel like and maybe get influenced a bit here and there, but if they start to listen TOO MUCH it will turn into a disaster, since the leader can see things us disciples can't.

Huh? I don't follow.

12 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

do you think that what you're really saying is that you just don't like it when you feel like a character is a complete power trip? I say this from a genuine place, I'm not trying to like, belittle you or anything.         

To a fashion, yes.

Originally during the first few reworks I was under the impression that we'd be getting these buffed characters to counteract some introduced threats that'd follow.

14 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

but then, to that, I postulate that, is any character really at that point?

No, not really. Wendy pretty much is sorta just that prime example.
I can't really say any of the characters are too powerful as much as I'm just adjusted to how the gameplay loop goes.
I find myself apprehensive that others are going to reach the Wendy bar without some focus on their downsides or threats to go in hand, though.

I do think I've gotten a bit tangled up, I am more concerned with other factors the thread had originally mentioned more so than I am the characters in of themselves. (I.E the nature of the skill trees currently, rather than their contents. Something I still need to ruminate on.)

9 minutes ago, xhyom said:

but what will happen when it comes to ones like Wickerbottom which has no downside at all? Will she be able to sleep with a bonus stats gain? Will Wortox not be considered a monster? Wolfgang is a precedent, a strong character just getting more strong at no cost.

I share some of these concerns. I think it's unlikely, though I do hope they stick with their current formula and don't give perks that outright zero out some of the character defining quirks.

[flamboyant wolf]

12 minutes ago, xhyom said:

I'm kinda scared on that topic, I play as Wurt mostly and her downsides are basically what defines her as a character, having a different diet and not interacting with pigs was enough to change my whole gameplay cycle, I started fishing for gold, to sail for food, pay some visits to moon island and the monkey's island for their sources of food, things which I neglected ever since they've released, just because my downside made me take alternatives to overcome them.

if they take away Wurt's downsides, I'll be throwing hands(metaphorically) 

[Swiyss]

14 minutes ago, xhyom said:

I'm kinda scared on that topic, I play as Wurt mostly and her downsides are basically what defines her as a character, having a different diet and not interacting with pigs was enough to change my whole gameplay cycle, I started fishing for gold, to sail for food, pay some visits to moon island and the monkey's island for their sources of food, things which I neglected ever since they've released, just because my downside made me take alternatives to overcome them. As for Woodie and Wormwood, well, they had pretty bad perks actually so having some treats is nice and they aren't game breaking in any way, but what will happen when it comes to ones like Wickerbottom which has no downside at all? Will she be able to sleep with a bonus stats gain? Will Wortox not be considered a monster? Wolfgang is a precedent, a strong character just getting more strong at no cost.

It's obvious to us that they added these 3 together. There is a reason, and that is to chill the community. Wormwood was asked so much about receiving some brightshade interactions, wolfgang was asked to receive his movement speed back and woodie was overall in a bad state, even mains didn't want it to play him cause of the wickerbottom moon book. So they showed us these ones just to calm us down, and now probably the rest of the crew will be extremelly underwhelming I guess exept from Willow and Winona maybe.

[Curly Bill]

maybe it's just my perspective, but i've been greatly enjoying the powercreep. I have three reasons for this:

i have a few friends that i'm helping learn the the game so they can play with me, and giving them a goal of surviving to get some skill tree benefits really helps; and the bonuses are also very helpful to keep them alive too.

secondly i feel like klei is working on having some big late game changes coming up that will be adding a lot of difficulty to the late game (content for more experienced players); or at least that's the philosophy i'm assuming they seem to be doing.

third, i really just like added traits to help increase the uniqueness of each character, and add more detailed benefits for each character. I'm really happy woody is getting some awesome love, and seeing the new dumbells for wolfgang is cool to see continual buffs for the basekit of characters.


overall im enjoying this update, and am really glad for the extra helpful tools that have been encouraging my friends to keep giving the game a fair try, because this game can be a bit discouraging for new players.

[xhyom]

6 minutes ago, xDpromonick9 said:

It's obvious to us that they added these 3 together. There is a reason, and that is to chill the community. Wormwood was asked so much about receiving some brightshade interactions, wolfgang was asked to receive his movement speed back and woodie was overall in a bad state, even mains didn't want it to play him cause of the wickerbottom moon book. So they showed us these ones just to calm us down, and now probably the rest of the crew will be extremelly underwhelming I guess exept from Willow and Winona maybe.

I mean, yes, it's kinda obvious they picked characters that needed this and a strong character that don't need much if any changes and showed us that they don't really plan to buff those to much (Yet Wolfgang got a big buff in planar damage, not going much in that topic but wasn't planar defense/damage meant to hold up a bit of those massive damage dealers?). But still some characters have nothing to be changed, most I can expect is some weird balancing. Like, what would you give to Wanda? Even minor changes like less cooldowns is too much already...

[Primalflower]

13 minutes ago, -Variant said:

I find myself apprehensive that others are going to reach the Wendy bar without some focus on their downsides or threats to go in hand, though.

this is an understandable concern, and I respect it! my response is just, like, I would rather have some downside be removed/changed in such a way that approaching it is a lot less of an ordeal after hundreds of days of playing a character, over having that downside hamper my gameplay after i've already sort of just proven how i'm totally capable of rising above it. Especially in this sort of implementation where, the truth is, if i do happen to find some sort of downside fun, then I can still put myself to deal with it! and quite possibly I might even benefit in other ways from subjecting myself to that! You get me?

[Golden Daemon]

I dont think they will ever outright add harsher downsides to characters (at least those that are with you from the start of the game) to compensate these current buffs, since one of the main points of the skill tree was to help newer players orient themselves towards what they should / could do and adding downsides would kind of go against that (making it harder for newer players to play the game).

One thing they could do that i would very much like to see is to add negative skill tree alongside the current one, by that i mean that they could give players the ability to choose certain extra downsides for their characters that would allow them to gain extra skill tree points to spend in their current skill trees.
This way the new downsides are both optional, and somewhat desirable in that its a risk vs reward rather than just a straight downside (since it would kind of feel bad for players to see their characters just get nerfed, even if they had gotten buffed previously).

Another thing they could (and in my opinion , should) do is to add certain character specific interactions with their new content the moment they are released, not every character should have the same interaction with the new content, and not all interaction should be a beneficial interaction (even very simple things like webber being a monster in hamlet and requiring a disguise in order to interact with one of the main mechanics of that dlc)
 

[-Variant]

6 minutes ago, Primalflower said:

I would rather have some downside be removed/changed in such a way that approaching it is a lot less of an ordeal after hundreds of days of playing a character

There we are!! I think you've summed up something I personally seek in a fleshed out character.
I want a bit of effort to go into it, but I absolutely do love being able to overcome X and Y threats and downsides.
I do love some major ones sticking around, I.E Wormwood's hunger/health thing, it's one of my favorite quirks in the game, and I do like the concept of say, Woodie being able to work his way to getting past his Full-moon-transformation-pains.

I would absolutely love if more downsides are changed/brought in with this sort of mindset. Something you can overcome and/or work with/against, barring some effort. Love that. I could roll with that.

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, xhyom said:

I'm kinda scared on that topic, I play as Wurt mostly and her downsides are basically what defines her as a character, having a different diet and not interacting with pigs was enough to change my whole gameplay cycle, I started fishing for gold, to sail for food, pay some visits to moon island and the monkey's island for their sources of food, things which I neglected ever since they've released, just because my downside made me take alternatives to overcome them. As for Woodie and Wormwood, well, they had pretty bad perks actually so having some treats is nice and they aren't game breaking in any way, but what will happen when it comes to ones like Wickerbottom which has no downside at all? Will she be able to sleep with a bonus stats gain? Will Wortox not be considered a monster? Wolfgang is a precedent, a strong character just getting more strong at no cost.

Be ready for "Wurt now can gain gold by crafting 3 Kelp and 1 rock" "Wurt can eat meat but lose -10 sanity" "The Queen appreciate your loyalty and now pigs will tollerate you"

[Jakepeng99]

4 hours ago, goblinball said:

I will never understand ppl like you who prioritize statistical balance over fun

yeah the new skill trees make the characters alot more powerful but who cares, they’re fun

as long as you aren’t killing bosses in literal seconds and there is still some semblance of challenge then it’s fine. “Balance” doesn’t matter as much as you ppl say it does, especially when making things balanced can often make things less fun

fun value is ultimately the most important thing imo and as long as the skill tree perks are fun then they’re a good addition there’s not much more to it

i know a lot of ppl enjoy dst because of its “uncompromising” challenge but these new skill tree perks (or at least, the super powerful ones ppl actually care about) are pretty late game when enemies get stronger to balance it out so like this is just basic progression lol it doesn’t mean all challenge is gone forever 

 

Just to note, the skill trees are not late game, you can spawn in with all the points to spend on it day 1. Also things like Woodie's lunar perk which makes him have 0 downsides are kinda "eh".

[Dextops]

Can someone tell me what op things they added with the skill trees? Because all I see is they made woodies perks actually worth using, they gave wormwood more things to branch out with with limitations and Wolfgang got boring qols because well that’s what he needed.

[abrocator]

7 minutes ago, Dextops said:

Can someone tell me what op things they added with the skill trees? Because all I see is they made woodies perks actually worth using, they gave wormwood more things to branch out with with limitations and Wolfgang got boring qols because well that’s what he needed.

At this point any minor buff just confirms that Klei is “power creeping” the game to certain people. Doesn’t matter how minor unless the same update also nerfs something.

Wormwood got some useful post-CC perks but he was already a weak character (particularly in combat).

I like Wormwood’s perks but I don’t particularly like the mechanism. Experience points doesn’t fit the game.

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

I just want to know why? Why ignore all this feedback?

They are no longer making this game for you. They are making this game for people who can not comprehend the idea of why you would play as a character who required thought, had downsides, or wasn't blatantly the best in the game. 

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

They are no longer making this game for you. They are making this game for people who can not comprehend the idea of why you would play as a character who required thought, had downsides, or wasn't blatantly the best in the game. 

Can you elaborate on this because skill trees to me add more character choice and depth to a character while also providing needed buffs. It wasn’t fun to have woodie basically be unplayable during moon storms and it wasn’t really a downside either so I’m confused on how anything you said actually relates to skill trees. 

[Capybara007]

Since the beta dropped all ive seen from the people that dislike this update is "its not like dont starve" 

the same was said when klei added multiplayer and the same was said when klei added skins and the same was said when klei added npcs and the same was said when klei added cute events like cawnival

The game is evolving, and very slowly, for some reason everyone compares dst to world of warcraft, if it does not catter to you, why must you keep sticking to it, just accept that big changes are coming, and that is good, to me, and to many others at least

[BezKa]

2 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

The game is evolving,

That's the problem. It's devolving. From an interesting and unique game that offers more niche experience you won't really find in other games, into a typical boring little flop.

[Capybara007]

4 minutes ago, BezKa said:

That's the problem. It's devolving. From an interesting and unique game that offers more niche experience you won't really find in other games, into a typical boring little flop.

define typical boring little flop

you cant say elden ring because of the skill trees, if so, dont starve = minecraft because of trees

[BezKa]

2 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

define typical boring little flop

you cant say elden ring because of the skill trees, if so, dont starve = minecraft because of trees

Game that might appear challenging at first, turns into mow your enemies simulator. Rewards you for doing nothing. Becomes boring after first playthrough. Where any interesting mechanics are undermined by good old hit it till it's dead and it will solve all your problems. Don't have enough of something? Magically summon it for little to no cost. A mechanic bothering you too much? Nullify it completely, for yourself and others.

A game you go into with expectations of a challenge, of having fun, and are instead disappointed when everything is solved not with interesting mechanics, but some slapped on lazy exp payment for free powers. A boring little flop.

[ADM]

A bit sad to block discussion to whoever doesn't agree with me is an idiot that can't think or understand game balance but okay, nuance won't be a thing today.

[Dextops]

13 minutes ago, BezKa said:

That's the problem. It's devolving. From an interesting and unique game that offers more niche experience you won't really find in other games, into a typical boring little flop.

I’m so confused on how. All this did was add more interesting mechanics and customization. You seem more upset at the fact that it was added in the way of skill trees than the actual skill trees themselves 

[BezKa]

Just now, Dextops said:

I’m so confused on how. All this did was add more interesting mechanics and customization. You seem more upset at the fact that it was added in the way of skill trees than the actual skill trees themselves 

Yes! You get it! It's not the skills I'm mad about, it's the skill trees.

[Capybara007]

didnt they said more difficulty is something they look forward to implement

[Dextops]

3 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Yes! You get it! It's not the skills I'm mad about, it's the skill trees.

Could you explain why? I’ve been very confused on why people seem to dislike this update and all I’ve really seen is insults and very flat surface level arguments.

[BezKa]

1 minute ago, Capybara007 said:

didnt they said more difficulty is something they look forward to implement

And the planar damage is their failed attempt. I'm afraid the difficulty spike they planned is already here, and now it's nullifying it with free perks time.

1 minute ago, Dextops said:

Could you explain why? I’ve been very confused on why people seem to dislike this update and all I’ve really seen is insults and very flat surface level arguments.

1. Those are free power ups. You can talk about 150 days, but that's next to nothing. Barely more than two in-game years. And the payment is one time only- every new world you start, you have those perks for absolutely free. People say those are "late game stuff", but they aren't.

2. Skill trees are the most boring and uncreative way to implement new character perks. I'd be more accepting of them if the perks had to be activated in some kind of structure. Hell, keep the UI, just don't let those things clutter the menu, inspect screen and pop an annoying notification every time you survived another 10 days. I'd still be unhappy with that solution however.

Someone mentioned how Walter already does it better- where his kit gets expanded by reaching places of importance, the ruins. Cursed rounds are actual good example of lategame content unlocking in-world. Balance and all that aside because I'm only talking about the unlocking part.

There are so many better ways to give new skills to characters. A structure that gives them to you. A sacrifice of some sort that will grant you the power for a limited amount of time. A goshdarn minigame that symbolises your character learning it and practicing. Anything that isn't just clicking on an icon and calling it a job well done.

3. Skill trees just don't fit into the game, stylistically. The game was always self contained inside the actual world, + skins if you're into that. But those are also accessed via wardrobe, instead of just clicking an icon and changing your skin any time. The skill trees stick out.

4. The whole Wilson thing. I hate skill trees, but if only one character was doomed by them, I could somewhat accept it. Now that everyone is going to have one, Wilson is still nothing. You can't even argue he's the starting character, because "he has a skill tree that guides players" isn't an argument anymore.

Maybe I can think of more later, but my break is ending and I have to go back to work. Hope this is enough to show some of my perspective though.