Don't you hate it that Celestial Champion is summer locked? (can get it around day 65 best case)

[Cheggf]

If your sole purpose is to just get the crown as soon as possible start in spring.

[Waynel]

 It really amazes me that there’s all these arguments about how this task ruins the game from a speedrunning perspective because “of all the waiting” but no one is even hinting at what was the underlying idea behind this task that requires you to gather the cacti flowers?

They only spawn in summer, in a single biome, they are covered by a storm that makes you move much more slowly.. You see where I’m going here ?
Guess what, as simple as it may sound, from the average joe’s perspective this is harder than picking a regular cactus flesh during any other season, it’s like a mini challenge for beginners/intermediate players. (and it’s part of the “big challenge” which is the cc quest)

“but make the storm appear in autumn/spring/winter too !” No, the seasonal cycle and the changes it brings on the environment of the Constant are a major aspect of this game and they impact bosses too, it shouldn't be removed.

The cactus flower task in the cc quest is not based on the assumption that you are speedrunning cc, that’s just how it is.

Why can't we have Meese Geese, Klaus and cactus flowers spawn in the first autumn and remove the 3 other seasons altogether for the sake of speedrunning ? Ridiculous.

6 hours ago, jan Mele said:

I'm not sure if it's just me, but I've noticed so many people in this community are just so obsessed with grinding, repeating certain boss fights in the same context over and over again and waiting, when DS/T isnt meant to be played so long in one world. Now, you can play the game however you want, it's a sandbox game of course so of course I respect how everyone else likes to play their games, but why must you wait a whole year to get it? Take breaks from this game and enjoy new ways to play once in a while. Out of all the games in this world I never expected DS/T, a survival game that expects the player to improve by learning new information about the game to be so sought after to be played like Animal Crossing and incremental games. I wonder where that obsession for repetitive actions and amassing massive amounts of resources in DS/T came from. Clearly, they are addicted to this kind of play, spending al their time solely on this and don't just want to enjoy the game at their own pace.

Because doing an all boss run or any particular boss speedrun/rush over and over again is obviously the way this game is meant to be played !

“But I’m doing a boss run once a month, I take breaks from the game ! And that’s what how you should play the game to have fun !”
Well news flash, the same can be said about a megabaser who plays the game once a month and yes, he might be on his way to blow up misery toadstool with spicy volt goat jelly as wanda/wolfgang for the 15th time, but who cares really ?

The late Helicalpulma’s Maxwell series was very flawed if you apply this logic to it (or any of his other megabasing videos on his Wigfrid world for the matter) because he wasted a lot of time farming all the wood for the chests, making gecko/twiggy tree/pig farms, killing all those extra meese geese, crafting a beefalo hat etc. instead of just killing all the bosses in a single year in an efficient manner.
And the fact he would also do boss runs and challenge fights didn’t prevent him from stressing that at the end of the day you play the way you want to play regardless of how quickly you get to kill all the bosses, as long as you enjoy it.

He was both a megabaser and a speedrunner but never would he suggest that either way was the way. And he was absolutely right about that.

 

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

skill op klei pls nerf

There’s not much place for skill tbh, just take a look at df : pan flute and anti-lavae walls are a thing;
It’s really just a matter of how fast the player gets marble/healing and pig skin in order to stand still holding f behind a wall, as there is no incentive or any obligation to face lavae and/or enraged df, something that would actually involve skill.. but back to the topic,

 

3 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

with cactus flowers I can get the pearl before the first full moon

Let’s assume you need 10 cactus flesh instead of cactus flowers, and you’re able to nail that cc kill before the start of the next season.
In terms of skill, there would be no difference between this ideal sub day 21 run (if that is your goal I presume) and a run that can be done under current game mechanics, i.e. starting in spring and having a 2-3 days delay on the cc kill because you had to wait for the cac flowers in order to kill ck and move its altar piece to lunar.

Just because you’re forced to wait a few more days doesn’t mean this or the aforementioned hypothetical run required more skill on your part.

 

6 hours ago, jan Mele said:

The first day is a new moon. Mighty Wolfgang carries marble pieces faster. There's also a funny multiplayer trick. It still depends on world rng tho.

Waiting is smart and engaging. Waiting until summer is definitively a choice. You really have to make the best out of your first 64 days to be able to gather cacti. Got it.

If you have fun regenerating the map 15-25 times because the knight wasn't close enough to the setpiece or being forced to play wolfgang to reduce that regen amount by half, go ahead, why not.

 

7 hours ago, Hornete said:

I'm not sure if it's just me, but I've noticed so many people in this community are just so obsessed with rushing things, when DS/T isnt meant to be rushed so absurdly fast. Now, you can play the game however you want, it's a sandbox game of course so of course I respect how everyone else likes to play their games, and hey I'll absolutely take alternate methods of getting cacti flower because hey I can see it sucking missing a summer, but why must you get it in the first year? Take time with this game and enjoy it slowly. Out of all the games in this world I never expected DS/T, a generally slow game that amounts to several hours of gameplay in a single world to be so sought after to be rushed so quickly. I wonder where that obsession for rushing in DS/T came from.

Being obsessed with speedrunning is totally fine. Wanting to reshape the game as per your speedrunning standards isn’t.

[goblinball]

There’s nothing wrong with content not being optimized for speedrunning. Plenty of games are a pain to speedrun.

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Waynel said:

They only spawn in summer, in a single biome, they are covered by a storm that makes you move much more slowly..

They spawn in two biomes and only one has the storm.

[Guille6785]

I love the fact that the OP didn't even mention speedrunning at all yet everyone's bashing on it while ignoring that speedrunning and rushing are completely diferent things that are only superficially similar

[NOOOBU]

There is a more serious promlem here, you can not meet the champion in a custom world with NO CACTUS or CELESTIAL FISSURE.

In my views, custom worlds means you will meet the regular path in harder or easier ways, but not the being banned totally. Other boss mob in custom worlds can be met by different ways, such as by editing world settings (you can turn off any boss setting and turn it on later, which is not unidirectional).

For example, if we need a hammer to summon bee queen in a NO ROCKS custom world, we can also gather rocks from moles or metors.

But we can do nothing in a NO CACTUS or CELESTIAL FISSURE custom worlds to meet the champion and king crab, NOTHING.

Any boss mob especially the mission and story related, need to be feasible to defeated in ANY custom world.

[Guille6785]

44 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

Any boss mob especially the mission and story related, need to be feasible to defeated in ANY custom world.

now kill dragonfly in a no dragonfly world

[ZombieDupe]

Not sure if you really made this point, but the Pearl's tasks really are very narrow and specific and when trying to complete them for the first few times I couldn't really tell what I needed to do or if there was more to it. It's all pretty obscure. Why is the flower salad the specific dish you should feed to her? Why not anything else? In fact why would a player even consider straight up feeding an NPC???

[lowercase skye]

18 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Not sure if you really made this point, but the Pearl's tasks really are very narrow and specific and when trying to complete them for the first few times I couldn't really tell what I needed to do or if there was more to it. It's all pretty obscure. Why is the flower salad the specific dish you should feed to her? Why not anything else? In fact why would a player even consider straight up feeding an NPC???

she literally asks you to. pearls whole thing is that she starts out just sort of grumbling vague complaints about her berry bushes dying or her bees not making honey or only catching small fish, you figure out that that means you should plant berry bushes and flowers and give her large fish, and then as the friendship grows she starts being more explicit with her requests. like, read her quotes, what exactly is unclear about them...?

[ZombieDupe]

1 hour ago, meow meow meow said:

she literally asks you to. pearls whole thing is that she starts out just sort of grumbling vague complaints about her berry bushes dying or her bees not making honey or only catching small fish, you figure out that that means you should plant berry bushes and flowers and give her large fish, and then as the friendship grows she starts being more explicit with her requests. like, read her quotes, what exactly is unclear about them...?

Some of the tasks make more sense, ones that were more obvious I actually accomplished. Never really done sea fishing, the bait mechanics are a good idea but it looks overwhelming and terribly implemented that I don't even want to touch it despite knowing pretty much everything else about the game. When you consider all that effort with pretty obscure quotes, something that even I rarely ever read because of how unnoticeable they are, all of this could definitely have been implemented better.

If a new player were to somehow get to a point where she's asking for a flower salad I think they would probably consider putting petals in crock pot, which you can't even do. And anyway, getting the salad to her is like if you were trying to get butter by killing butterflies just to help another player out who doesn't know what they are doing with insanity, it's just dumb and annoying. Speaking of butterflies, that's what you catch and plant in the ground to place flowers around, that is just way too farfetched of a mechanic but you can't plant regular seeds for anything unless you use some weird digging device on the ground first before tilling the ground yourself unless again you are this one specific character. It just makes way too little sense for someone to figure out. I would be baffled if someone somehow was able to do all of that without looking it up or being told how to do it at any point.

[Primalflower]

2 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

 

If a new player were to somehow get to a point where she's asking for a flower salad I think they would probably consider putting petals in crock pot, which you can't even do. And anyway, getting the salad to her is like if you were trying to get butter by killing butterflies just to help another player out who doesn't know what they are doing with insanity, it's just dumb and annoying. Speaking of butterflies, that's what you catch and plant in the ground to place flowers around, that is just way too farfetched of a mechanic but you can't plant regular seeds for anything unless you use some weird digging device on the ground first before tilling the ground yourself unless again you are this one specific character. It just makes way too little sense for someone to figure out. I would be baffled if someone somehow was able to do all of that without looking it up or being told how to do it at any point.

damn dude i think you might just hate the game

[ZombieDupe]

1 hour ago, Primalflower said:

damn dude i think you might just hate the game

No, I like the NPC route as progression and I would definitely like more NPC interactions. Just the interactions themselves kind of suck especially when the gameplay surrounding it isn't all too interesting either, especially when the fetch quests are so very specific that you end up using every last braincell just to get a vague idea of what you are supposed to do. And I would certainly enjoy fishing more if it was more straightforward than convoluted and had better rewards. This also didn't mention any of the other things that I do like about the game in general, but that would be going way off topic I think.

[jan Mele]

8 hours ago, Waynel said:

Because doing an all boss run or any particular boss speedrun/rush over and over again is obviously the way this game is meant to be played !

My... Comment... Was... A joke

I obviously don't think megabasers are wrong to enjoy the game this way. I used the phrase "over and over again" because Hornete used the word "obsessed"

Also, I like to rush different things in different contexts. I don't even always rush. OP clearly enjoys variaty in the order bosses are defeated. I just don't like having 3420 pierogies on me. 

I just wanted to higlight the problems with Hornete's comment

[Yuuko]

11 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

with cactus flowers I can get the pearl before the first full moon

Wow, with that much time I could see this being really annoying in a game.  It should allow you to progress about as fast as you can beat the bosses.  Perhaps grandma's upgrades should be reconsidered to not include season lock since you must complete her house progress her.  Not just about forcing someone who can complete her tasks so efficiently to still wait until summer, but also for players who miss collecting these flowers b/c summer is only 15 days and there are a lot of things to do in the game.

I usually don't prioritize her tasks, so do them kinda half ass lol  Like "Oh its raining, let me teleport an umbrella to grandma" and such lol.  For me the summer ones are easy to forget since I'm usually doing many other things.  I've often had to wait until second summer to come back to her stuff just b/c ck and cc aren't super high priority for me.

btw - which tasks do you hit to get her done so quick?  As I said I don't really have a focus on her, but if you have a shortlist of tasks you can hit so quickly it might help me to take your experience if you don't mind XD

[SinancoTheBest]

4 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

OP didn't even mention speedrunning at all yet everyone's bashing on it while ignoring that speedrunning and rushing are completely diferent things that are only superficially similar

Hmm would you kindly explain the difference then? I really don't see a difference except for speedrunning having more official connotations like keeping a stopwatch and trying to beat world records at certain tasks whereas rushing being a more casual activity of trying to do things as fast and early as possible. Both have very similar gameplay implications.

[jan Mele]

7 hours ago, Waynel said:

Guess what, as simple as it may sound, from the average joe’s perspective this is harder than picking a regular cactus flesh during any other season, it’s like a mini challenge for beginners/intermediate players. (and it’s part of the “big challenge” which is the cc quest)

Did anyone say that whatever material we'd use for the quest should be free? 

5 minutes ago, SinancoTheBest said:

Hmm would you kindly explain the difference then? I really don't see a difference except for speedrunning having more official connotations like keeping a stopwatch and trying to beat world records at certain tasks whereas rushing being a more casual activity of trying to do things as fast and early as possible. Both have very similar gameplay implications.

Rushing is trying to do something as the first task, sometime under a time limit, often done in normal play. Speedruning is trying to do something as fast as one can. 

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, SinancoTheBest said:

Hmm would you kindly explain the difference then? I really don't see a difference except for speedrunning having more official connotations like keeping a stopwatch and trying to beat world records at certain tasks whereas rushing being a more casual activity of trying to do things as fast and early as possible. Both have very similar gameplay implications.

While both can be heavily simplified down to "doing a certain thing quickly", the nuances between them make them completely different in actual gameplay; in speedrunning the element of a competition exists, you're not just rushing to do something quickly in general, you're doing it to do it faster than somebody/everyone else or at the very least to meet a certain time goal; in practice this has the direct effect that a speedrun from a gameplay standpoint will involve you prioritizing absolutely nothing more than the objective of the run in question which results in playing the game very differently from how you would if you planned to do anything else in the world, stuff like burning non-renewable resources for light at night or wasting pan flute uses on minuscule time saves like not having to kite pigs or spiders, etc.

"Rushing" on the other hand is just a completely vague term for prioritizing something early on in a run and that's literally where it ends, and in a game like dst unless you're letting your cat hit random keys on your keyboard you are always rushing something whether you like it or not, and yes that includes all the people in this thread complaining about rushing in the first place lmao; if after leaving the portal your goal in mind is to set up an alchemy engine once you find the resources to do so then congrats, you're by definition rushing an alchemy engine; rushes are a perfectly seamless aspect of any regular playthrough because there will always be one thing that you consider more important to do first than the other things you have in mind. Time limits for rushes are subjective, some people consider going to the ruins during autumn or even winter a rush while a lot of others have specific day counts in mind

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

btw - which tasks do you hit to get her done so quick?  As I said I don't really have a focus on her, but if you have a shortlist of tasks you can hit so quickly it might help me to take your experience if you don't mind XD

the trick is to do all the tasks in 1 visit or 2 at most, this is usually my thought process:

-1 of the tasks is already done for you no matter what which is just picking up 6 bull kelp on her island and putting it on the drying racks, free point
-if you go there after spring the lureplant is another free task
-instinctively craft a bug net and a shovel, dig the berry bushes and capture the butterflies and collect all the manure and fast spoiling food I can find until I have 8; these are two very easy tasks
-rain task is doable in autumn and early summer with the rainometer, just time your visit correctly and wall pearl up so she doesn't go to sleep at dusk and give her a pretty parasol with her own flowers you just planted, requires some diligence on your part to get it right but it's a quick point; if spring or winter it's super easy though
-while waiting for rain to start I like to clear the ocean debris around the house in the meantime, I'd recommend using another boat for this task and hammer the pinchin winch once you're done, this will sink the boat and give you back most of the resources while getting rid of the annoying shell bell boulders (I just hate them)
-flower salad task should be done while repairing her house, just have a crock pot on your boat
-her house is just amassing some surface resources, chester is a godsend don't forget

[reallychina]

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I love the fact that the OP didn't even mention speedrunning at all yet everyone's bashing on it while ignoring that speedrunning and rushing are completely diferent things that are only superficially similar

Not only did i not mention speed running, i specifically mentioned this is mainly about being forced to do bosses in a linear order which results in stale and unidimensional gameplay.

 

And i didn't say this once, but repeated it a couple of times in the thread.

[Pig Princess]

On 4/2/2022 at 11:43 AM, reallychina said:

I hate that this boss is locked behind cactus flowers

 

18 hours ago, reallychina said:

not just season locked, but LAST season locked

While I would also prefer pearl to be not locked by time limit (no matter the season, the fact that summer is last just makes it worse) I have other concerns with it: I don't like how getting completely unrelated to ocean activity resource is mandatory requirement for fighting ocean bosses. I like to have more uses for cacti flowers though, therefore I suggest the following.

Add/tweak ocean mob/plant/resource source so at least one of them gives cacti flowers and is not hard locked behind any time X.

There is another benefit of this: in the world without cacti plants player would be able to meet CK and CC, whether cacti were turned "off" during worldgen, world has no summer in settings, or cacti plants are lost due to accidents/griefers on public servers. This is consistent with many other crucial resources having main and secondary way of obtaining them (gears, gems, pig skin, silk, food types for crockpot, even not so crucial beefalo whool, etc.), and with ability to achieve same goal in different ways (perfect example is winter gear: beefalo hat/puffy vest/winter hat for insulation points, thermal stone/hot dragon chili salad/scorching sunfish for unrelated to player insulation points + for freeing inventory slots, beefalo hat/winter hat pair which allows player to adjust in case beefalo horn didn't drop with similar resources in hand, etc.).

Another important thing is for crucial resource to be not locked behind rng, particularly when resource in question has low drop rate: I think we all remember cookie cutter shells or getting cane from ocean treasures still being joke compared to mac tusks farming (vast majority of the time, and ocean tresures being used to get specifically cane more out of despair than pleasure); those who played/watched "picky eater" runs are very likely to remember butter grind that defines run - and for me and everyone I met these things take away fun and satisfaction from the game, not other way around.

Therefore my suggestion: make cacti flower drop upon killing sweetish fish-like fish (already existing content, not rng-based/seasonal fish is the idea) or add another ocean biome-specific way through new mobs/plants/environment or add a way to tweak existing ones (just like one can tweak saladmanders loot table by "riping" them, not to be confused with tweaking via game update/worldgen settings).

Cacti flowers would still be obtainable through picking cacti, and it could remain primary - the fastest during casual playthrough if only time per cacti flower needed is considered, the most convenient, the safest, etc. - way of obtaining cacti flowers, but secondary way would enrich player's experience if primary is unavailable.

[BezKa]

Gotta admit, it's so amusing to see forums complain about this after like half a year worth of whining for late-game content. 

[Quyzbuk]

So... you DO know you can change default worldgen settings right? Shorter seasons (::cough:: different starting season), more abundant resources, more boss spawns, etc. I sincerely hope you realize this because it doesn't sound like you do anything except default vanilla.

 

You also understand that this as of right now is the current "final" boss until they are ready to further expand the game/lore? 

 

This has been the template in games for a LONG time. If you are hellbent on rushing it, stop complaining about it here and start looking at how you can speed up the requirements to unlock and fight it. You have the power to do so, that's why they allow you to fine tune your world to your desire and fight most of the bosses at will (or at all)

 

I really cannot stress enough that you should be doing more than just starting a default new world to rush the CC.

[SinancoTheBest]

3 hours ago, reallychina said:

this is mainly about being forced to do bosses in a linear order which results in stale and unidimensional gameplay.

But the point others are trying to make is that unless you're rushing to do everything in 3 seasons there is no progression order. I've been in many klei servers where Celestial Champion was done even before ancient guardian is killed, let alone the sketches for shadow pieces were obtained. In casual gameplay cycle you are free to do most bosses and adventure storylines in any order and I fon't think that the design needs to be altered to accomodate to the tiny minority of players who seek to rush everything in less than 55 days.

While you said that A New Reign storyline can be done in as early as day 3, in reality that is very misleading as it is HIGHLY unlikely to assemble all broken marbles and defeat shadow pieces before the first night, which makes you able to access Ancient fuelweaver atmost as early as day 22, the second season. I don't think that the fact that the second quest line, Return of them Necessitates you to survive at least until the 4th season is unreasonable in any way.

[Waynel]

11 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I love the fact that the OP didn't even mention speedrunning at all yet everyone's bashing on it while ignoring that speedrunning and rushing are completely diferent things that are only superficially similar

Alright I used the wrong terminology but my point stands: in this context, whether you’re doing a speedrun or a rush, in both cases the player is annoyed by the restriction brought about by the cactus flower task, which forces you to wait for summer to kill cc.

 

4 hours ago, reallychina said:

Not only did i not mention speed running, i specifically mentioned this is mainly about being forced to do bosses in a linear order which results in stale and unidimensional gameplay.

 

And i didn't say this once, but repeated it a couple of times in the thread.

I understand your concern I can actually relate to it myself as I’m fed up with never being able to kill Klaus first whenever I do a boss rush on a default settings world, sometimes you’re just waiting and sitting for day 24 to start. Personally, It’d be refreshing to have Klaus among the first raid bosses that go down.

But when I look at it from an objective standpoint I realize it’s really just me - “dst veteran survivor” – getting bored of the normal seasonal cycle and how it affects bosses.

I won’t feel compelled tho to call for deer dropping antlers during autumn.

 

Actually the point can also be made about the afw, yes there’s a new moon on day 1 but that’s an outlier because you have to regen map x amount of times to actually get the golden knight, which sucks (or play wolfgang ig).

Maybe it should be like in super mario bros where there's a clear path, no rng at every corner (actually no rng at all) and makes it all about how well you execute the run..

[jan Mele]

35 minutes ago, Waynel said:

Maybe it should be like in super mario bros where there's a clear path, no rng at every corner (actually no rng at all) and makes it all about how well you execute the run..

I mean, this as a preset with an ability to select a seed more easily would be enough.

55 minutes ago, SinancoTheBest said:

I fon't think that the design needs to be altered to accomodate to the tiny minority of players who seek to rush everything in less than 55 days.

How does an alternative way to get cacti flowers will hurt your gameplay?

[Guille6785]

imagine if you were playing some other videogame that takes maybe 10 hours to beat for the average player on their first playthrough, however it's like your 12th playthrough of it and you know all the levels purely from repetition and can beat it in ~3 hours, now imagine if suddenly after you beat the final level the game forced you to sit for 5 more hours before fighting the final boss just because "it's fair that the final boss should make you wait 8 hours at least"

that's literally what so many people in this thread are praising, you're massively underestimating how long it takes to reach summer in irl hours

 

saying "just play in spring" is missing the point, this isn't about how I play, it's how the game is designed, putting an 8 hour hard cap on an important boss is excessive