Forum's Opinion on the Wolfgang Refresh (haha I strike again!).

[SecretPizzaMan]

If there is any problem feel free to message me.  Unfortunately it seems I need to clarify, don't imply hypocrisy with no backing or mock other's opinion because it is the "wrong" one, because then you get this. Or the reply below this one.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/136871-should-wanda-be-nerfed/

JoeW's final reply to the topic.

Spoiler

 "To address some of the questions and comments above. 

I'm not going to tell you to stop with feedback - I'm just asking to end the bickering. I'm saying if you want to provide feedback, please do so constructively. I am not suggesting we need more. =)

Also, @HowlVoid - the forums represents maybe at best 2-5% of the total active players at any given time. Of those, the majority of the forums are not actively dissatisfied with Wolfgang. So, those that are dissatisfied are a smaller group. 

Anyway, that doesn't even matter. We still try to make sure we can meet our own goals as well as do our best to make our players happy with the result.

We've had a few meetings and have decided that we're definitely going to address some of your concerns. How we're going to address them and when is still being discussed. But - I wanted let you all know. 

Another thing that was discussed was that in the past, you might have seen us react to your feedback after a refresh a bit quicker than you did this time because we just got through winter break and we also had the Lunar New Year update that had to come out. In addition to that some people have been out sick and getting everybody together has been a bit rough since we got back from holiday. 

So - It's worth pointing out that there was definitely some disconnect in my response to you all, and that has probably contributed to the feeling that this refresh has been different and I'm sorry for that.  

We'll let you know more details when we have them. " -JoeW

I just want to say sorry and thank you.

 

[MondayNight]

Make the poll public so we can see all the Wanda/WX/Wormwood/Wortox-avatar people voting on "Yes, I like very much the new Wolfgang rework (because it nerfed him and now my main can shine bright, hyuhyu!)"

[Gashzer]

Wolfgang rework is great:

• Static 2x damage
• 1x hunger drain instead of 2-3x
• Tier 1 weather resist with mighty - stacks nicely with beefalo hat/eyebrella.
• Increased mining and chopping speed (1.5) perfect for mining marble trees!
• Piggy back/marble suit speed penality removed
• Increased kitability with marble suit allows you to kill dfly solo with 1 marble suit, 2 football helms and NO healing! (This is with me not even being that great at kiting alot of the times tbh)
• Fun enough mini game with gym
• The glorious gembell! Allows for 24/7 mightyness for 11days per bell only requiring 15secs of pumping out of a 8min dst day,  cheap enough to boot! (Kill dfly which is ez as wolfy, clockwork bishops or graves for purple gems)
• Wolfgang with shield of terror rivals wanda with alarming clock for killing basic mobs one hit (spiders,frogs, ice/fire hounds, 2hits regular hounds) shield refuelable like clock!
• Does all this without sacrificing your big 200hp safety net of a health bar unlike wanda.
• Earlier access to damage boost with all weapons unlike wanda who is grindy early game in acquiring her alarming clock especially on public servers where you may be fighting other players for resources.

All in all i prefer wolfgang as my boss killer character and not wanda, especially on public servers. 

The loss of speed boost is a price I'm happy to pay for all the quality of life fixes wolfgang got!

Again, Great Job Klei!!

 

[SecretPizzaMan]

22 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Make the poll public so we can see all the Wanda/WX/Wormwood/Wortox-avatar people voting on "Yes, I like very much the new Wolfgang rework (because it nerfed him and now my main can shine bright, hyuhyu!)"

Sheesh are you trying to get this topic locked, you know I was afraid it might come to this, but I didn't thought it would be so fast.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

[MondayNight]

1 minute ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

Sheesh are you trying to get this topic locked, you know I was afraid it might come to this, but I didn't thought it would be so fast.

No, but I remarked this on Wolf's rework thread back in December 16: the "vocal voices" praising the most said rework were commentators with Wanda/Wormwood/etc avatars - some even stating their motive, aka nerf will make people try other characters and/or their non-Wolf mains will be more prominent from then onward. Plus the occasional "Git rekt Wolf-mains, lets see them salty tears!" shenanigan.

[W0l0l0]

Just going to repeat what has already been said and say that I'd like other ways to gain mightness and maybe expand on the throwing mechanic. 

[Ohan]

Could use a lil more juice like an actual purposeful/more interesting implementation of potato sacks (like I’ve been nagging about since the beginning ).

Gym should’ve started out empty and give wolf the ability to craft cheap potato sacks as extremely lacklustre weights but also a portable container of sorts, most obviously for potatoes. Cuz idk who is actually working out with the sacks the gym comes with since it’s so easy to immediately replace them with just normal sculptures even until u get boss sketch. The sacks just have 0 reason to exist even more so after they removed the potato u get from hammering them… (why keli ? It was funny)

I also think it’s a real pity throwing dumbells drains as much durability as it does.. making throwing more affordable and tying an interesting incentive to it would’ve been so fun. And I still do not understand why the damage is not doubled when thrown. 

laboring (chop,mine etc) should also have an influence on mightiness like slowing down the drain. 

lastly there’s the issue that mighty rowing isn’t as effective as it could/should be as Hornet has showcased with a side by side comparison with Wilson. 

other than these four things I think the refresh was good for all the reasons Gashzer listed. He’s a lot more interesting to play now. 

in an ideal world wolf would get 1 more patch to adress these things

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Make the poll public so we can see all the Wanda/WX/Wormwood/Wortox-avatar people voting on "Yes, I like very much the new Wolfgang rework (because it nerfed him and now my main can shine bright, hyuhyu!)"

yeeez basically "i dont agree with these wormwood/wx/wanda/whatever avatars guys so better atack them"

personally i dont need nerf to make my main shine, for that i only need my hands

32 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

No, but I remarked this on Wolf's rework thread back in December 16: the "vocal voices" praising the most said rework were commentators with Wanda/Wormwood/etc avatars - some even stating their motive, aka nerf will make people try other characters and/or their non-Wolf mains will be more prominent from then onward. Plus the occasional "Git rekt Wolf-mains, lets see them salty tears!" shenanigan.

i dont recall nobody saying that when is well known that people mostly play wigfrid and wendy but i recall that i said that maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe (i said enough maybes???) they nerfed him so in a future there will be a more wide variety of characters being used in dst content because from a promotion point it could be something bad if people that dont know about the game only sees wolfgang videos which, imo, isnt a reason to nerf or change characters

but keep your toxicity pls, is hilarious

 

edit. also people can enjoy a refresh and also agree that it has room for improvement/wasnt necessary/shouldnt be nerfed/enjoyed it before being refreshed/prefer the change for personal preference or what ever non dogmatic reason

seems like some people can only think black or white when there are many colours but dogmatics gonna dogma

[Ohan]

I typed out a whole thing and it got instantly hidden when I posted it. Why keli 

Spoiler

Well here’s the “cleaned up” version until my original post gets unhidden I guess? 

Could use a lil more juice like an actual purposeful/more interesting implementation of potato sacks (like I’ve been nagging about since the beginning ).

Gym should’ve started out empty and give wolf the ability to craft cheap potato sacks as extremely lacklustre weights but also a portable container of sorts, most obviously for potatoes. Cuz idk who is actually working out with the sacks the gym comes with since it’s so easy to immediately replace them with just normal sculptures even until u get boss sketch. The sacks just have 0 reason to exist even more so after they removed the potato u get from hammering them… (why keli ? It was funny)

I also think it’s a real pity throwing dumbells drains as much durability as it does.. making throwing more affordable and tying an interesting incentive to it would’ve been so fun. And I still do not understand why the damage is not doubled when thrown. 

laboring (chop,mine etc) should also have an influence on mightiness like slowing down the drain. 

lastly there’s the issue that mighty rowing isn’t as effective as it could/should be as Hornet has showcased with a side by side comparison with Wilson. 

other than these four things I think the refresh was good for all the reasons Gashzer listed. He’s a lot more interesting to play now. 

in an ideal world wolf would get 1 more patch to adress these things

 

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Ohan said:

I typed out a whole thing and it got instantly hidden when I posted it. Why keli 

becuase you use bad words

i will clean your tonge with bleach you little punk

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Make the poll public so we can see all the Wanda/WX/Wormwood/Wortox-avatar people voting on "Yes, I like very much the new Wolfgang rework (because it nerfed him and now my main can shine bright, hyuhyu!)"

I hope it won't invalidate people with Wilba avatar who answered "no, I don't like Wolfgang rework because it made him even less interesting for me than before" (and character I like the most doesn't even exist in DST).

Edit: after thinking about it, I guess I'm in the same boat with people who liked old Wolfgang the most out of all characters, because their favourite character now doesn't exist in DST as well. Except this is sad and doesn't fill me with joy at all, because why would it in the first place?

[SecretPizzaMan]

49 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Sorry but my poll isn't just some regular, average Wolfgang topic, it is THE Wolfgang topic, it is what every Wolfgang topic has been working up to, a giant meaningless poll that will surely give no change whatsoever.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

Sorry but my poll isn't just some regular, average Wolfgang topic, it is THE Wolfgang topic, it is what every Wolfgang topic has been working up into, a giant meaningless poll that will surely give no change whatsoever.

i just made the joke because i wake up and find the last wolfgang post alive closed but found yours (before some bitter psicotic butthurt comes to atack me)

glad you opened it

[Spino43]

Here we go again.

Luckily I still have a ton of popcorn wrapped.

As for serious opinion. I will say no.

His rework only changes his way to get mighty, and offer virtually nothing else.

Still the same Wolfgang, but worse.

I would be down if he is nerfed but offer something fresh and more team-based perks.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, Spino43 said:

His rework only changes his way to get mighty, and offer virtually nothing else.

is sad because i was expecting a more complex gameplay which was what made him boring for me but he is still very strait forward and still makes the game easy...i just like that they made him more thematic and less grindy which was boring in long term worlds (atleast for solo or not so crowded servers, i cant talk about what i dont know even if some people expect that for some reason). Plus his working time is cool for ruins cleaning and other gathering situations (or toad)

[Pig Princess]

Since poll was made public, I want leave a comment regarding my choice. It's not attack on a poll, but just manifestation of my confusion about possible interpretation of results.

Question #2 implies that if one didn't play Wolfgang much, then answer should be "no, I didn't play him". That was directed towards people who liked rework, but for the sake of consistency and neutrality question #3 should contain the same statement. I answered on Q3 with that in mind.

But I don't think it invalidates my input, since, firstly, watching/reading is also a mean of obtaining information, and if I see both dumbells and gyms failing systematically at making Wolfgang better team/solo player numerous times in numerous circumstances (from perspective of teammate, youtube/twitch viewer, forum reader), if I see minigame and decide that is boring, if I know exact speed tresholds and therefore know for sure that Wolfgang lost X and Y niche ways of playing, I don't need to torture myself every single time and play until boss X with predictable result I saw/calculated earlier. There are multiple ways of getting rid of ignorance, and experienceing something myself is one of them, but not the only one, and sometimes not the best one (even though it seems counter-intuitive; it's rabbit hole I don't want to jump into in this post). But technically I had to answer "no" in appropriate question.

Secondly, why should I continue doing something I strongly dislike, especially since it's not obligatory task and I play DST for entertainement and relax? Forcing myself to play 100+ days even though the more I play the less I like it? Even with little firsthand experience there are still things that manifest themselves in that short period of time, for example, I can't and never will accept idea of staying idle, doing nothing and self-implied tax of boredom time no matter what it offers and no matter how long I would torture myself. If offer is good, that means offer part is good, not price, price - idle time - shouldn't be justified since it goes against the whole idea of active recreation (games fall into this category). And offer is not even good, that part i know from firsthand experience.

This firsthand experience comes from Toros's version of Wolfgang, which is very similar to reworked Wolfgang, but again, technically I had to answer "no" on question whether I played reworked Wolfgang, case this poll just can't register.

To add to the mess, I played Wilba in DS, and her wereform has similar dynamic to old version of mightyness in a way that player trades increased hunger rate for damage and speed, although numbers are different. There are other differences, most of them make wereform weaker in comparison to what mightiness offers, but important thing is major kit still consists of the same elements (hunger rate, speed, damage). And I can assure anyone from firsthand experience that food is not free, one needs to go and kill this food/harvest it and, ideally, cook; spend extra time for extra food, ideally rush bundle wraps. It's true that wereWilba has lower damage and greater speed, but DS mobs have less health and there are similar examples of speed tresholds (for example, Pugalisk, who is just as pointless to kill as Wilba as Shadow Pieces on day 21 for winter Fuelweaver fight, it's just fun option for a rush). I also see support of validity of this comparison because just like I was not in wereWilba form 100% of the time (or even majority of time), Wolfgang mains weren't mighty all the time and used this form strategically. Why? Because of upkeep! Does this firsthand experience count? I hope so.

So i don't know how to answer to this poll and not distort information for both poll reader and myself as poll participant. I hope what I wrote helps.

[Lil K]

My only wish is that we could keep mightyness through fighting/mining/chopping. 

[HowlVoid]

Oops I voted wrong...

I voted no and then accidentally voted that I voted yes, haha. Poll confused me a bit. 

[Atkvin]

I wanna preface this with an interesting observation of the similarities in design between reworked Wolf and Wanda (please don't you dare start arguing about Wanda) besides having highest potential for damage:

Spoiler

Both have three forms, but Wanda's power is split between old and young forms, while Wolf's is entirely locked behind mightiness & he simply becomes weak if he is not maintained - time is also the driving force of both Wanda becoming older and losing health, and Wolfgang losing mightiness and becoming weaker. More just for note, they both may also wear specific equipment without usual drawbacks at their strongest forms, Wanda taking advantage of the strength of shadow weapons and Wolf the utility/protection of slowing equipment.

This comparison was just a thought exercise (get it) for me to see what makes Wanda so interesting, that Wolfgang tries to do differently but falls short of. Namely that most of his power is tied to only one form, the way he attains that form not being interesting, and lacking other utility.

To start off, personally I think Wolf's wimpy form (with his smaller stature and flightier nature) should naturally have a speed buff, not enough to offset his disadvantages in combat but give players that miss it the slightest olive branch, allowing them to use it for long distance travel and giving them a reason to not only be mighty constantly. It also ties into my next point on improving working out.

I think my best solution to fixing working out is making dumbbells slightly slow down Wolfgang when held even in the inventory, at a culmulative rate (it also kinda makes sense lol) - but in turn, allow him to cumulatively and passively gain mightiness over time while moving around and doing activities, just at a reduced speed. Mighty Wolf would not be slowed by any dumbbells in his inventory at all, as expected.

And as others are suggesting, being active in the game fighting or working should also slow the loss of mightiness. On the other hand, I feel like being attacked by shadow creatures actually decreasing Wolf's mightiness would be a step in giving him a more substantial disadvantage tied to both his character's neglected cowardice/sanity issues and Mightiness management.

(and this is more a random idea for combat utility while thinking about that Wanda comparison, but i had some idea about smelling salts that would allow wolf to hang on when he should've died at 1hp or something once. probably useless lol)

[Mangrove]

He used to be fun, now he's not. I dislike the idling, the mini-game and feeling tethered to his gym. The upkeep cost in cut stones is a big annoyance as well. I don't care about any of his new perks so getting mighty doesn't feel rewarding, the upkeep is mainly to avoid wimpy penalties.

With old Wolfgang, I actually liked the tension from having to time your eating while being chased by monsters, or risk getting killed while transforming. His old might/hunger mechanics were really elegant and a big part of what I liked about him. New Wolfgang is safe and boring and makes everybody wait for him.

He changed too much, it feels like my favorite character was simply removed from the game.

[Duck986]

inb4 this will be locked in a few hours due to klei being freaking tired of this kind of topics and won't fix anything related to Wolfgang because they hate him.

[SecretPizzaMan]

6 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

inb4 this will be locked in a few hours due to klei being freaking tired of this kind of topics and won't fix anything related to Wolfgang because they hate him.

We must believe in the Klei even if we have lost hope. Also you're exaggerating. I bet like, 100 rupees that they won't lock this post in like 24 hours from now, btw don't check the value of a rupee.

[Duck986]

4 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

We must believe in the Klei even if we have lost hope. Also you're exaggerating. I bet like, 100 rupees that they won't lock this post in like 24 hours from now, btw don't check the value of a rupee.

with this attitude to problems our only hope are modders, not klei. sometimes ones made better things for free than devs do for money.

[Echsrick]

just need some small fix ups, like, not losing mighty or at least lose it slower when holding a dumbbell, and maybe gain mighty faster overall, and add that he wont lose mighty at all when doin some task, like choping trees or mining rocks, and that he wont lose mighty for a bit of time when he gets to maximum, maybe even give him some adrenalin rush once he gets full mighty and give him a minute speed up, so he can catch up from the time loss from training, seems like an good and reasonable idea i think