Putting the "Uncompromising" in DST

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, TheMelonNinja said:

There ARE ways of making the game more interesting, I'm not arguing that. All I'm saying is that the people who want the game to be "hard" again are just going to master the game like they did the first time and then we're back to square one. Let's say Klei did add a thousand new mechanics to Winter to make things more interesting. It's all swell and all, experiencing it for the first time, but if you're a hardcore player like most on the forums are, you're inevitably going to reach the same exact roadblock we've reached now where you've mastered all the new Winter mechanics and people go back to saying "nooo make the game uncompromising again ;(((". 

It's an intrinsic element to a video game. To make Don't Starve uncompromising again would only last so long until it's back to being compromising again. There's no changing that. People who only want the game to go back to being difficult are eventually just going to find it easy again after playing the new content for a while, which is all I'm saying. Once again, this isn't a DST exclusive issue. It's an issue with every video game ever.

and i agree with that (and everybody with common sense) but that doesnt mean that having to only track temperature will be the same as tracking temperature+other stuff, even if it isnt an uncompromising experience for thousands of hours, it will make season more fun

[Ardcrumb]

Honestly, the only thing I think of when I hear "uncompromising" is that mod that people would. not. Stop. Advertising for, plus, I'm a coward in video games and I don't like fighting, so having an option to make some things easier is better, because it allows more people to have fun instead of a **** you button like spelunkmonkeys or sharks.

 

Tl:dr I like taking things easy and adding more annoying enemies like what Mike is suggesting is a bad idea in my personal opinion 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

20 minutes ago, Ardcrumb said:

Honestly, the only thing I think of when I hear "uncompromising" is that mod that people would. not. Stop. Advertising for, plus, I'm a coward in video games and I don't like fighting, so having an option to make some things easier is better, because it allows more people to have fun instead of a **** you button like spelunkmonkeys or sharks.

 

Tl:dr I like taking things easy and adding more annoying enemies like what Mike is suggesting is a bad idea in my personal opinion 

the mod just took the name from the game's description because that mod makes emphasis in being more uncompromising but that doesnt mean that some of us want that kind of changes

[Spirit Glow]

13 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

There is a server option for Endless, Wilderness & Survival- Each of these do different things, there are ALSO now server options for A Taste of Terraria world Gen presets.

Why must the game and its content cater to one particular audience or type of player? If I want to host worlds where meteorites can fall into any biome, why isn’t there an additional world toggle that does exactly that?

Building big huge map sprawling mega bases only appeal to SOME but not all types of players- Maybe I want unavoidable disaster that forces me to play in a different way “Recover & Rebuild” maybe I want floods to drown out land, earthquakes to cause landslides, Meteors to rain from the heavens into any biome.

Dont starve together only becomes compromising when Klei allows you to become familiar with what spawns where & when.

 There's a difference between asking for more freedom in options and saying this game needs to be more uncompromising, which again, we are not even clear on what that means exactly.

 

"Dont starve together only becomes compromising when Klei allows you to become familiar with what spawns where & when."

You are basically describing how video games work. You learn the game. 

 

Now if you are asking for a way to make worlds absolutely random where anything can spawn anywhere at anytime, that's a different story. That's an actual point of discussion.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Spirit Glow said:

Now if you are asking for a way to make worlds absolutely random where anything can spawn anywhere at anytime, that's a different story. That's an actual point of discussion.

wasnt that already included with the 'insane' world settings? 

 

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, Ardcrumb said:

Honestly, the only thing I think of when I hear "uncompromising" is that mod that people would. not. Stop. Advertising for, plus, I'm a coward in video games and I don't like fighting, so having an option to make some things easier is better, because it allows more people to have fun instead of a **** you button like spelunkmonkeys or sharks.

 

Tl:dr I like taking things easy and adding more annoying enemies like what Mike is suggesting is a bad idea in my personal opinion 

I have a thread where I showcase multiple areas of DST that already have those more annoying enemies… They’re already in the game: Problem is they spawn at very low % chances so you rarely if ever experience them at all- For example: There are a LARGE Variety of mobs that can come out of opening tumbleweeds (as well as loot that if the world becomes bare are the only way to obtain such as Reeds)

I would PREFER more small mobs I can kill in 2-3 hits with a common spear Versus: Having the Eye of Terror or Twins of Terror spawned onto my face in the middle of the night from out of nowhere triggered by another player.

Klei has to give in and change some things eventually… they are still designing a Multiplayer game as if it were single player: but not everyone in a Multiplayer game are going to work together or even agree on what to do, so you have these complete jerks who rush finding the Terrarium & then drop the “Twins” onto that poor new Wilson just trying to cook the Rabbit he caught over his campfire.

I don’t think in comparison to THAT flipping over a little stone and having a tiny lady bug pop out and bite you once or twice is going to kill you… even if you ARE playing as Wes.

25 minutes ago, Spirit Glow said:

 Now if you are asking for a way to make worlds absolutely random where anything can spawn anywhere at anytime, that's a different story. That's an actual point of discussion.

That’s Exactly what I mean.

[Scrimbles]

4 hours ago, Ardcrumb said:

Honestly, the only thing I think of when I hear "uncompromising" is that mod that people would. not. Stop. Advertising for

You mean, mentioned a couple times, and then dogpiled on because people arent allowed to talk about projects they are proud of?

I mean people copy paste the same topics every week but god forbid we talk about something different.

Im insulted by the way you use "advertised", as if there was malicious intent, or some scheme to... what? Get people interested in a free passion project that no one is forced to play?

I wouldn't want the forums to be spammed with mods all day long, but I think people need to stop treating any mention of a mod as some malicious act.

[Yuuko]

40 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

You mean, mentioned a couple times, and then dogpiled on because people arent allowed to talk about projects they are proud of?

I remember pretty clearly for a while every topic had someone bring it up.  Ask about tips for bee queen or afw?  "Well in uncompromising mod we..." blah blah blah.  Its been a while since then but it happened, and it was obviously annoying and pervasive enough that its still remembered to this day.

[Scrimbles]

28 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I remember pretty clearly for a while every topic had someone bring it up.  Ask about tips for bee queen or afw?  "Well in uncompromising mod we..." blah blah blah.  Its been a while since then but it happened, and it was obviously annoying and pervasive enough that its still remembered to this day.

Its remembered because some key figures in the community kept on bringing it up the fact that we talked about Uncomp on the forums a bit, even when the posts were on topic and relevant.

People who thought bringing up a mod on general was against the rules.

 

And ever since then, the rumor that we spammed it in every thread echoed despite it being untrue, and we just shrunk away because everyone already made up their minds based  on hear say.

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Its remembered because some key figures in the community kept on bringing it up, even when the posts were on topic and relevant.

People who thought bringing up a mod on general was against the rules.

 

And ever since then, the rumor that we spammed it in every thread echoed despite it being untrue, and we just shrunk away because everyone already made up their minds based  on hear say.

I never thought it was "against the rules" just that it was annoying, and its not rumor or hear say - I was there and it happened to threads I started.  I would ask about things in the game, or make comments, and it never failed - "In Uncompromising mod" blah blah blah.  And it didn't matter the topic - talk about how to cheese a boss?  suggestions for the game?  "In uncompromising mod we" blah blah blah.  Best thing that ever happened in the forums was when they stopped talking about uncompromising mod.

Glad y'all like what you're doing - but no mod is an acceptable answer to a question about how to do something in game, and its not likely an acceptable answer to suggestions for the game.  This includes for all mods - combined status, push, geometric placement, show values, AnimeGokuInDST, or PatchedOutCheeseWeDon'tLike.  You can reply that you suggest they try a mod if you want, its not against the rules, but don't expect that answer to receive praise - no matter what mod you're talking about.

[Well-met]

mike23ua is the reason the word uncompromising no longer means anything around these parts

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, Well-met said:

mike23ua is the reason the word uncompromising no longer means anything around these parts

And as I stated back then I will still state now: Uncompromising MODE is not the same thing as Uncompromising MOD*
Lets just pretend you all get what you want: 
 

New Weather seasons: YAY!

Reworked Summer with Fire Tornadoes that can be put out with mop buckets: More YaY!

A super Late Game New Game ++ where after killing Ancient Fuel Weaver & Celestial Champion the entire world terraforms and becomes a harder strange new mutated land: YaY to the Maximum amount of YAY!

Now: The whole world is Lunar Mutated, And when it rains it drops acid spore bomb clouds from the sky because why not?? You beat the game it had to do something new in New Game ++.

Uncompromising MODE would be taking any combination of those new features, as well as any combination of already existing features and having KLEI ENTERTAINMENT hand pick which of those features to be toggled to On/Off how little and how much etc… In short: Its a WORLD GEN PRESET.

Just like a Taste of Terraria was a World Gen Preset built by the Terraria Devs..

It has no association whatsoever to some mod with the same name I can’t even play.

[Falkenpelz]

21 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

How dare people want more of the game they payed for and invested their time in grrrrrrrr

Okay, guys guys guys, as I said, from my side this was a simple meme joke about the phrase "uncompromising survival game" appearing in every second discussion.

[BezKa]

9 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

And ever since then, the rumor that we spammed it in every thread echoed

Except I also remember when that was the case- though it wasn't specifically creators of the mod, just people who enjoy it. People would start talking about game difficulty and it was guaranteed someone would slap a "play uncompromising mode mod" as a response. And I remember it well because it annoyed me, then it just stopped one day. 

Nothing wrong with bringing it up when it's on topic, geometric placement gets mentioned when talking about base building, Uncompromising mod gets mentioned when talking about people looking for a challenge. 

[Scrimbles]

1 hour ago, BezKa said:

Except I also remember when that was the case- though it wasn't specifically creators of the mod, just people who enjoy it. People would start talking about game difficulty and it was guaranteed someone would slap a "play uncompromising mode mod" as a response. And I remember it well because it annoyed me, then it just stopped one day. 

Nothing wrong with bringing it up when it's on topic, geometric placement gets mentioned when talking about base building, Uncompromising mod gets mentioned when talking about people looking for a challenge. 

I can't control fans of the mod, if people want to bring it up that's up to them. I just wish people didn't blame me for other people talking about it.

[Mike23Ua]

9 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

I can't control fans of the mod, if people want to bring it up that's up to them. I just wish people didn't blame me for other people talking about it.

People shouldn’t do that.. but you can’t control what people do, if I were you though even when people blamed me I would find some weird enjoyment in being acknowledged: Kinda like hey I made this thing/helped make this thing & now I get blamed when my thing is talked about.

But I’m pretty sure even you as one of the creators can agree that there are things about the mod people liked about it, and then other things they absolutely hated about it: 

Which has been my entire point all this time, even IF Klei decides to add some New Game + Mode that adds a ton of new weather features, advanced mobs, more difficult gameplay etc: 

Lets just for example pretend Klei did a Cross-Over deal with Max Curse of Brotherhood and they decided on New Game + Mode that frog rain will now use Max’s exploding poisonous gas cloud frogs- Some people are going to LOVE that, some people are going to absolutely HATE it: this is where having customizable world Gen settings or presets become vitally important.

Your Mod does not (to the best of my knowledge anyway) allow players to toggle on the things about your mod that they enjoy, while at the same time: Leaving toggled OFF the parts they Don’t enjoy.

Its pretty much the same as how Klei added Lunar Hounds & Penguins & then had to add a filter to remove them because not everyone was on-board with mutated zombie horrors.

And THAT was official gameplay content that was once upon a time ago, a core part of the Return of thems story arch.

[Scrimbles]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Your Mod does not (to the best of my knowledge anyway) allow players to toggle on the things about your mod that they enjoy, while at the same time: Leaving toggled OFF the parts they Don’t enjoy.

The majority of our changes and content is toggleable.

 

While I get why Klei is avoiding making big changes to the core  gameplay, at some point putting their foot down when it comes to stuff like changing farms, or removing Wolfgangs accidental movement speed boost needs to be done to pave the way for better content. Toggleable content is great, but there really should be some way of injecting more difficulty into already existing worlds.

[oCrapaCreeper]

In my opinion, it all starts with mechanics and ideas that came from the original Don't Starve. That was a more uncompromising game and Klei was not afraid to tout it in advertising. The motto kind of got carried over into DST however, especially at first when DST and DS were still very similar. I think we have reached a point however where lots of design ideas still carried over from DS have clashed heavily with the design of DST which naturally had to be neutered to make multiple players more reasonable.

Being "uncompromising" often seems too much when more than one player is involved, hence why dying just turns you into a ghost instead of your world being obliterated, or why forgetting basic rules about fire only results in minor damage instead of your whole base being leveled. DST was built on top of DS, and is still takes after it in many ways while the game itself is still designed within a different context that makes sense for more than 1 person in the world.

The way I see it now though years later, both takes on the game have tried to co-exist long enough within the same product that the difficulty and progression has just become a mess, and core things that need to be changed have remained untouched. One half of the game tries to move while the other one doesn't budge.

[maradyne]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:50 PM, Shosuko said:

Glad y'all like what you're doing - but no mod is an acceptable answer to a question about how to do something in game, and its not likely an acceptable answer to suggestions for the game.

I'll be sure to let Klei know that Multiplayer Don't Starve, something that was implemented as a mod before DST, isn't likely an acceptable suggestion for how they should approach the game and that people probably won't be interested in such a dumb passion project.

[Hornete]

8 minutes ago, maradyne said:

I'll be sure to let Klei know that Multiplayer Don't Starve, something that was implemented as a mod before DST, isn't likely an acceptable suggestion for how they should approach the game and that people probably won't be interested in such a dumb passion project.

Do you even know what Shosuko was complaining about?

Using your example, let's imagine someone was having a tough time killing some sort of boss or accomplishing a task in solo DS and someone sillingly replied, "Oh dude just get the multiplayer mod lol!!! You'll have an easier time with two players"

Shosuko is not complaining about people bringing up ideas from mods as possible innovative concepts in discussions for changes. Completely and perfectly acceptable, I love seeing suggestions from all points of views and what things have worked and haven't from a game design point of view. But no, they are complaining about people bringing up mods as a solution when someone is having trouble with a piece of content in-game. You don't tell someone to get a mod to make a task easier, you help give them tips/tricks on how they can accomplish that task.

[maradyne]

28 minutes ago, Hornete said:

~snip~

I was responding to their statement about game suggestions.
They complained about bringing up ideas from mods within suggestions that covered the same topic.

I was there as well, and I recall exactly that occurring several times.
This isn't as cut and dry as people like to remember it...and actually, the 'uncompromising' arguments were going on before the mod; the word came from DS and DST's menu, after all.

 

People just have different ideas about balance or what they'd like to see in the game, and some people do something with it. That's...all this comes down to.
For many of us, pointing to a mod is just a form of suggestion of what might be fun or interesting.

 

Spoiler

The instances I recall were more along the lines of...
'Hey, I'd like if this were a thing.'
Followed by...
'Wow, we actually made this possible over here, you might be interested!'
Followed by...
'But that's a MOD and MODS are EVIL.'

[Maxposting]

guys this game isnt hard i played 3000 hours in it

[Canis]

God dammit, I cant open the forums anymore without getting depressed.

I really wish I could just hit the "reset" button and just do Uncomp over again, because all it took was about a week of a select few people being TOO heavyhanded on the forums (who I personally had to yell at), and we have never, ever been able to recover from it. 

Let it be known, Uncompromising Mode never intended to "replace" Vanilla in any capacity. God dammit, I just made it because I wanted some difficulty, but I can't even mention it's name in Discord without people acting like i just praised Beard777 content, saying "ew uncomp" because I dared mentioned something that we as a group spent the last 3 years on.

This is absolutely me venting because this is an outlet, and frankly im sick of dealing with this for the past 2 years. People STILL think we have flammable tooth traps when that was patched out in 2019. People STILL complain about "Some features are cool but I don't like the entire experience" when expansive configuration options have been our priority since about late 2020.

We've been demonized because a few of our devs (who either left the team entirely or severely regret their actions because they were just filled with excitement) were stupid on the forums a few years ago. We have 10x the content we had since then, but nobody cares, and its the most disheartening thing in the world.

Im not going to ask for pity subscriptions, because thats dumb. All I ask is that you realize that things change, people grow, and products tend to improve over time.

In terms of people in the community being annoying about it, its not like we're trying to breed this behavior or something. Someone we've kicked from our discord in the past for bad behavior recently accused Zarklord of stealing ideas for Uncomp and putting them in DST, which is just dumb. Do we have any control over this? No. Did it make Hornete's discord server hate Uncomp with even more of a burning passion than it already does? Oh yeah it did.

[CarlZalph]

1 hour ago, Canis said:

People STILL think we have flammable tooth traps when that was patched out in 2019. People STILL complain about "Some features are cool but I don't like the entire experience" when expansive configuration options have been our priority since about late 2020.

Initial impressions last a long time, unfortunately as that is.  My advice to you is to not take it personally.  Take a look at how people reacted and still react to No Man's Sky, as just one example.

1 hour ago, Canis said:

I just made it because I wanted some difficulty

We have 10x the content we had since then

This is what I'd focus on if I were in your position.  You and the team made something to enjoy while continually improving and adding more to it.  It's a side benefit that it's being shared for others to try out and experience.  It won't make everyone happy, and the more changes done will increase the odds of making someone not like the overall experience.

2 hours ago, Canis said:

expansive configuration options have been our priority since about late 2020

Having options to turn everything off in pieces is one step, but keep in mind that the default settings is the experience most people will see.  I would imagine doing smaller changes up front by default but offering options to go full throttle on the difficulty/changes would land more people being comfortable without having to dig into the options and look up their meanings.  Perhaps even as an in-game mechanic that starts layering as progression happens akin to Terraria.  I'm not familiar with how the mod functions due to time constraints, so the mod may already do this.

 

I'd like to think that the people who go out of their way and type things onto this forum are the more dedicated players, and represent a smaller slice of the community.  However, I think that we all would like to see things improve in both the base game and in the available mods if at all possible.  Keep on rockin', Canis/team.

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Canis said:

God dammit, I cant open the forums anymore without getting depressed.

Ok but lets be real - There are a lot of topics that use the word "uncompromising" on these forums.  Y'all's mod is one of them, but not the only one.  Mike and others bring it up a lot too, in a way both completely unrelated to the mod, and yet totally in line with the attitude of the mod.  Wanting more difficult, less reliable methods of interacting with the world so that you cannot reach a place of casual dominance.

DST is a game where knowledge and experience bring power.  The game is designed to allow emergent game play.  When people talk about DST needing to be more "uncompromising" what they are usually doing is attacking the advantage that knowledge gives in the game.  People see things like a wall blocking a mob in a way they don't like, and even though the option to not build said wall is in the game - just don't build it, play how you want - the insistence from these people is that NO ONE should be allowed to build the wall in the first place.

This thread wasn't about your mod.  Its about the current difficulty of the game and the word "uncompromising" is used because its in Klei's own description of the game.  The word begs controversy, and thus discussion.

4 hours ago, Canis said:

I really wish I could just hit the "reset" button and just do Uncomp over again

If that's how you really feel, then genuinely consider rebranding it as "DST Hard Mode" or "DST CRAZY SURVIVAL CHALLENGE" and leave the word "uncompromising" off the label.  A few people certainly spread some bad vibes for the uncompromising mod, but the term its self comes with a lot of heat for how its used without your mod even coming up.