Is "Cheese" good for the game long term?

[Wurtstool]

Let's set some ground, I define cheese as an unintentional exploit/glitch that makes a piece of content within the game be completed much easier/faster than intended that is usually frowned upon by being cheap or unskillful. However, I think that cheese give more options in ways people can play especially in noncompetitive game such as DST and in the long run having more options is better for the game right? DST isn't competitive in any way beside how you make of it (I don't see DST having a allbosses% submission at speed running) so I don't get why people say that I didn't do it legit or something. Klei can rework AG as many times as they what and people will still find a way too cheese it but if you want to do it legit by repeatedly hit twice then dodge than you do you, whatever is fun to you is all that matters. I believe in using whatever mechanics the game gives you to your advantage that isn't belatedly cheating (ie, using debug as admin to give yourself an unfair advantage over other people within the server). So what are everyone's opinion on cheese for DST, feel free to agree or disagree.

[Pruinae]

I had a really interesting experience today: Got 4 other friends to join a public server and try and rush Bee Queen. We prepared like ~30 Wig helmets, Abigail + heals for her, healing food for everyone, Wig heal song, hambats for all, and even had a random Willow join in to fight with a spear.
Bee Queen died in under a minute.
We used about ~2 helmets of durability, one Abigail heal (probably not even needed) and... that's pretty much it.

Point is, if you play the game >together< (like y'know, it's in the name of the game), those bosses are pretty much a joke as long as everyone knows even a little bit of what they are doing (granted BQ is not a skill heavy fight with 6 people + Abigail).

So... solo players having methods to make fights easier or even to just farm those bosses doesn't seem like that big of a deal, and players playing multi don't even need to cheese bc the fight is easy enough as a group (so cheesing is just another ""equal-value"" option for them).

[maradyne]

...a lot of the cheese just feels buggy and illogical; I tend to avoid it entirely for that reason. Freezing a behemoth face monster that rams things to death between a small rock and a large rock because the objects are technically indestructible is...bleh. But, if it got stuck because it rams its horn into the actual pillar and is having trouble pulling it back out? That'd be cool. Maybe even destroy it and cause a ceiling collapse after a few times.

Cheese that makes a bit of sense is great. More options are nice. The player can choose to do the normal route, or try the weird stuff. Only thing I really have a problem with is stuff that feels like abandoned bugs.

That said, scaling boss health being an option included in vanilla would be nice. I don't think the topic would matter so much if solo fights weren't as grindy/multi fights weren't as steamrolly.

[Ohan]

What pruinae said + its all subjective. I would consider ag pillar strat ‘not legit’ but that doesnt mean its bad or good, just what it is. 

On the other hand i dont consider catapults vs bq/AF when ur playing as nona ‘cheese’ or tentacles vs bq as wicker but someone else might. 

At the end of the day it doesnt really matter 

[SecretPizzaMan]

Cheese is when you hit spider with bug nets.

[Mike23Ua]

Currently luring Deerclops to Dragonfly, putting them both to sleep with a panflute, THEN summoning a Nightmare fueled Twins of Terror and hiding inside a bush hat before the Twins ever spawn on a long winter night.

I’m doing that because the trailer for Eye for an Eye literally shows Wortox accidentally summon the Eye to “Eat” Bearger- If Klei DID NOT want me doing this: They should have never put the idea in my head.

There is a lot of risk involved in doing this though, mostly timing and making sure you don’t come out of hiding till everything has mostly killed each other-

So go in prepared with a fully fueled campfire (normal not stone) and pray they all kill one another before Daylight or your fire runs out & you freeze to death.

Cheese is subjective- Personally I would LOVE to be able to fight and enjoy Bosses without having to go into those fights over-prepared or Pick Wolfgang.

They are unique parts of gameplay content some even spawn unique mob encounters, and this content either demands that you do a ton of set up and prep for it, or bring a group of 3 or more players and smash it dead with great ease.

Boss Scaling should’ve happened a long time ago…

But until it does, The Twins of Terror & Gunpowder will continue to be my best friends. 

[DajeKotlyar]

I often make first kill honest, without any exploits, then use cheese tactics. The only exception is CC.

[Scrimbles]

It's hard to balance things, and account for new content sometimes when cheese is left unchecked.

Being able to score some late game gear early by cheesing the Ancient Guardian, for example, removes any difficulty curve a new world is supposed to have.

[Dextops]

i really don't like some bosses so i'll just cheese them and i think it should just be kept that way don't feel like having to deal with that tedium 

but its very useful later if you just really don't want a tedious fight every now and then

[NightfallsCurse]

I only want to cheese the bosses I absolutely HATE fighting (Such as toadstool), it saves soooo much time doing something you don't want to do

[Owlrust]

Here's my take:

Spoiler

There's no "legit" way to play DST to be honest. Skill is subjective too since many factors can go into a battle that makes it easier or harder to deal with. Using a cane and magi? Easier hits and kiting. Bad ping/lag? Will make kiting much more difficult. Using a basic Axe in a BQ fight? Sorry for your loss. Using Wolfgang or Wigfrid? Faster fight. Killer Bees in a CK fight? Not much effort required. Mods? Might as well spawn the loot in.

Something is really only a problem in games when there is a noticeable pattern. ie: "Players with (perk) tend to win 35% more than players without it" or "(Activity/Unintended Exploit) is more used than other methods and provides a substantial increase in success rate than without it". At that point, there is actual evidence of its impact on the game as a whole and things can be adjusted to reflect that if needed. Balance is tricky, can't just change things willy-nilly without harming the integrity of the game; and personal feelings need to be on the back-burner a bit since they are biased in many instances.

 

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Scrimbles said:

It's hard to balance things, and account for new content sometimes when cheese is left unchecked.

Being able to score some late game gear early by cheesing the Ancient Guardian, for example, removes any difficulty curve a new world is supposed to have.

Sneaking past the ruins in order to cheese the guardian and get the guardian's loot is way harder and way less rewarding than just doing the ruins. Even if you do sneak past the ruins and even if you do kill the guardian, what are you gonna get? Some useless orange rubble and a log suit that absorbs a bit more damage but is going to break after not too many hits either way? Even when you get the best loot from AG its impact on the game isn't exactly major, and definitely not "removing any difficulty curve".

[Mike23Ua]

28 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Sneaking past the ruins in order to cheese the guardian and get the guardian's loot is way harder and way less rewarding than just doing the ruins. Even if you do sneak past the ruins and even if you do kill the guardian, what are you gonna get? Some useless orange rubble and a log suit that absorbs a bit more damage but is going to break after not too many hits either way? Even when you get the best loot from AG its impact on the game isn't exactly major, and definitely not "removing any difficulty curve".

I’m still laughing at many things, I’m not the most knowledged player at this game I don’t know every items use or know every crafting recipe by heart.

And in fact I was one of those people who saw the words “eat” on the Deerclops Eye & was like… “Why the hell not?” 
That’s what no one is taking into account with these bosses, I’ve killed Dragonfly twice and still haven’t gotten any idea what Yellow, Green & Orange Gems are good for. And they’re currently just scattered on the ground around a Crystaline Alchemy engine used as pretty base decorations.

Ive also killed Ancient Guardian a few times and haven’t gotten a clue what it’s loot is good for, yeah I get a horn and a Key- items I just threw on the ground and forgot about because I couldn’t find a use for.

Right now the game teaches players the importance of Purple Gems, (thanks Wolfgang) but yellow, green and orange gems won’t have a use for a casual or new player.

And let’s just be honest: By the time they reach the point to know what all that loot does they’re probably skilled enough at the game they don’t need to “cheese” it.

Case in point: you can read Wiki to figure out where the Ancient pers- station is, but just knowing where it’s located won’t help you actually get to it.

Theres a knowledge threshold gap that has to be overcome before those items can see use.

 

[Terra B Welch]

Honestly, if killing some bosses gets so repetitive that it's not fun anymore, why not cheese it in the event you just want to get more resources from it? Let people play how they want to play.

Like in Culinary Archipelago for example.

I'm honestly thinking whenever I get around to killing fuelweaver a couple more times for ruins resets, I'll eventually get sick of spending all the resources I do to actually kill fuelweaver, and will likely just resort to the houndius cheese every time I want to reset the ruins.

I'm also sure at some point that I'll get sick of doing the usual Wendy solo strat against Bee Queen every time I want more jellybeans or another crown, and instead of Master Warly getting called on for assistance, it'll be Ms. Winona who will help me out by building a catapult array to make repeat bee queen kills alot quicker.

Eventually it gets to a point where really late in the world doing stuff like that gets repetitive, like I'm honestly not looking forward to the large grind I gotta do for my planned Celestial Champion farming, due to all the stuff I'm going to want for the planned 10 kills, but I'm doing that because I really want to light up my entire road system with permenant glowcaps, if there were a way to cheese future kills easier I actually wouldn't be against it, but for now I'm stuck farming the ton of stuff I need to do the farming.

I honestly say as I did before, let people play how they wanna play, I like legitimately killing a boss the first few times, but if all I want is the resources or in the case of fuelweaver, trigger a ruins reset, then if I've already done the legitimate method a few times already, then I'm not going to have fun, I'm just doing it for the sake of getting it overwith, so screw it, whatever gets it overwith at that point so I can return to the fun is what I'll do.

As for AG, if I could land more than 1 hit every couple charges I wouldn't resort to pillar cheesing, but sadly Klei decided no actual fun allowed. :s
AG is a chore to me now, not even a fun fight, so I cheese to get it overwith.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Ive also killed Ancient Guardian a few times and haven’t gotten a clue what it’s loot is good for, yeah I get a horn and a Key- items I just threw on the ground and forgot about because I couldn’t find a use for.

Horn's a delicious meal, you're supposed to eat it. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

It's hard to balance things, and account for new content sometimes when cheese is left unchecked.

Being able to score some late game gear early by cheesing the Ancient Guardian, for example, removes any difficulty curve a new world is supposed to have.

not only that, you can have fw geat without fighting anything via cheesing AG+boat shadow pieces cheese(klei improvising the ocean..)+houndius and lureplants for FW (who doesnt raise his shield and minions)

cheese methods are good for the buisiness i guess some bosses are in a very dumb situation...

and with the addition of the portal, cheesing for laziness has little sense when you can melt a boss in 1 minute instead of waiting 20 min afk

 

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yellow, Green & Orange Gems

one of the best loot in the game. For that is important to know what items do before rambling for balance

[Mike23Ua]

40 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

one of the best loot in the game. For that is important to know what items do before rambling for balance

I mean is it really? What are you going to do with those items that I haven’t been doing already? Fight the same bosses, explore the same biomes, experience the same weather seasons & mobs- You literally said it yourself:

Theres no difference between surviving your first Summer & surviving your 1000th.

I would understand & even agree with you if the things these bosses dropped were necessary items absolutely required in going to say a Distant island out in the ocean that requires me to wear Bearger vest to avoid absolute frigid temperatures that the Thermal stone alone won’t save me from..

But that’s not how DST is structured.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

28 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I mean is it really? What are you going to do with those items that I haven’t been doing already? Fight the same bosses, explore the same biomes, experience the same weather seasons & mobs- You literally said it yourself:

Theres no difference between surviving your first Summer & surviving your 1000th.

I would understand & even agree with you if the things these bosses dropped were necessary items absolutely required in going to say a Distant island out in the ocean that requires me to wear Bearger vest to avoid absolute frigid temperatures that the Thermal stone alone won’t save me from..

But that’s not how DST is structured.

i agree with you in some parts (we need an evolving world with scaling difficulty over time and areas with harder weather as you suggest) but remember that the game isnt only a survival game but also a sand box crafting one. Green gems are one of the most valuables items in the game since allows you to do crazy stuff with expensive items. Also yellow are very useful since you can craft QoL light staff and a speed item. Orange ones allows you to craft a QoL amulet and another staff that makes you wortox. Is game progression kinda like rpg games but instead of EXP you gain better items

i tried to limit the explanation since i know you like to discover things by yourself but trust me that DF loot is very good

[Spino43]

Yes, I think cheese is good for long term.

The longer you get the cheese go the better they taste.

Wait...

[Falkenpelz]

Sorry to be that person, but.. 

While being a quite valuable meal, cheese is neither a good main food source for short or long term game, since it requires electric milk to make and there is better, easier-to-make food available.

[MondayNight]

"Cheese" can be fun and inventive, likewise can flatter the fancied pride of people ("Oh, how easily I bested that dumb beast, heh!"). Of course, depends on the "cheese" and how fun are fights if not applied. If something is mainly "cheesed" (Crab King for example), that should make devs think at what might be wrong with it - i.e. amount of time and resources invested vs loot vs amusement/entertainment of "legit" combat. Some folks keep pointing at AG as most "cheesed" boss for the easiness of doing so (if not lagging and/or rubberbanding); yet they almost never shine a light on this boss' typical loot table, which frankly can be summarized in 1 word: cr@p. More-so, if this game was limited to 1-and-only way of dealing with bosses, aka kite-or-tank, I for one (and I reckon many others) would've abandoned DST a long-long time ago. Pitting a boss against the world or vs another boss gives the game a feeling of "naturality", of a world that's alive and functioning as opposed to some artificial fighting arena where all mobs are pitted against player like with most shooters out there, in "zombie swarm" manner.

[lakhnish]

I can do both, so it doesn't matter to me.

Having more tech makes the game more fun and if you don't particularly like something, you are not forced to use it. There are very few scenarios where you are or where the alternative just isn't fun cough Ancient Guardian cough.

[Guille6785]

dfly without walls, fw, shadow pieces, klaus and celestial champion are all pretty fun and don't feel unfair or drawn out to me even with x1 damage

ag used to be fun to me for about a day before klei decided no fun allowed so back to the pillar you go

pearled ck is special because as a single player you can't even cancel the healing without weather pains so you pretty much have to cheese him in some shape or form out of necessity unless you feel like grinding for weather pains

bq requires too much time and resources as non combat characters to be enjoyable to me, and basically requires a trip to the ruins beforehand for speed buffs so I only really fight her the normal way in a group (she used to be fun solo with wolfgang's speed but klei said no fun allowed)
bq solo no cheese also takes no skill so you're not exactly proving anything by not cheesing her, the difference between tanking her with moles and doing no cheese is that you save 10 minutes of walking from one end of the arena to the other

I don't actually mind toad, with a small speed buff and decent weapons the fight is pretty fun and not very long if you can manage it with torches/fire staves, plus you're clearly not encouraged to fight it at the beginning of the world so it's fun to have a boss specifically made to use all those extra resources you amass later on in a world

misery is the same thing but doesn't get instantly deleted with 6 players, if you just want the blueprints you can cheese it easily with lureplants so I'm fine with it

 

I think cheese is good to have since the game isn't centered around combat so if you find it boring to fight the same boss for the 204935th time you can just bypass it

[Mike23Ua]

You can also turn almost every giant “off” and sometimes I do play the game in that way- and if you played with seasons set to shortest you would quickly turn them off too (because fighting Deerclops or Bearger for the millionth time isn’t fun.)

Is being able to turn them off also cheese? 
I mean aside from items that will make staying alive even easier.. and some cool boss statues, what am I going to miss out on by removing them?

[-Variant]

Depends on the cheese, honestly. 
I hear mozzarella is good for you!