Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[JustExo]

The concept of a gym and might meter in itself isn't bad, honestly I think it's a good idea. character specific meters are kinda starting to get annoying, but that's neither here nor there. The issue that I see many players have with it is in the execution of those ideas, which can be tweaked to make those people happy. Wolfgang should be able to raise his might without the gym, and the way one can go about doing this is, make it so that when he's at full, or close to full health, any hunger points that he gains after reaching the max hunger cap gets fed into might at a lessened rate, that way, people still have the explosive gameplay early on, but with a bit more of a challenge associated with it, and still more of an incentive to make the items and structures themselves. as for what might entails, i think that the changes done to his mighty form are unnecessary, and I've yet to see any good or convincing arguments in favor of the nerfs Now moving onto the structures themselves I'm sure most people are familiar with my thoughts on character specific structures given how much I complain about them, but to run it down one more time, Character specific structures that serve no use for other characters when said structure is not in their immediate proximity is lame and bad allowing other characters to use the character specific structures with no downside whatsoever is still pretty bad because then nobody is going to continue playing that character, see Winona So the best way to balance character specific structures is just have the character who can make it get more of a benefit from it than other characters would, so with Wolfgang just let him become mighty with the speed boost and the health increase and all that might entails, and just buff all other characters damage by like, pepper flakes damage or something along those lines, the numbers will need to be tweaked a bit here and there, and the specifics are something that can be adjusted, but overall I think this would be a rework that people would view more favorably.

[Catchee]

7 minutes ago, minespatch said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vJDPsd80f4

Spoiler

T I L L W E E D

 

[Mangrove]

My thoughts from seeing the changes in action, as a Wolfgang main:

• The fundamentals of his playing style changed too much (general game loop, food management in fights and his kiting ability).
• I really miss the speed, this doesn't feel like Wolfgang.
• The waiting around with the dumbbell isn't fun. This really pours salt into the wounds from the speed nerf.
• The mini-game is already tedious.
• Losing mighty form in long boss fights is not fun.
• You need to monitor two meters instead of one regarding might, since hunger affects your mighty meter. It feels a lot less clean than the old system.
• The loss off speed, waiting around and mini-games kills him for me since I value fast, high mobility and hassle-free characters.
• I'll be waiting eagerly for the "classic Wolfgang" mod...

[reallychina]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

my thoughts:

 

You're grossly exaggerating. To my understanding you can get golden and gem weights that speed up the process significantly.

 

There is no reason for a character to be super sayan by day one, that's bad design and WF was already the strongest char and could get max potential day 1. Wanda also takes a lot of time to setup, so do other chars, wf should be the same. 

No speed boost is horrible.

That mighty dumbbell animation is hilarious, i love it.

[333hemaster333]

14 minutes ago, reallychina said:

There is no reason for a character to be super sayan by day one

Say it to Wigfrid

[minespatch]

I can't wait to see clean pngs of the different Wolfgangs on the menu.

[reallychina]

10 minutes ago, 333hemaster333 said:

Say it to Wigfrid

agree, wigfrid starts too strong BUT still can't reach full potential until much later.

With Wolfgang you can get max potential a minute into a new game. This is probably what Klei wanted to address and it was a reasonable and good decision.

[6AKU66]

14 minutes ago, reallychina said:

Wanda also takes a lot of time to setup, so do other chars, wf should be the same. 

 

That's exactly i don't like in wanda. Specifically backtrek watch crafting recipe. You need wait until winter and maybe you gonna be lucky to get walrus tusk (it's not really easy on large MP servers).

[CameoAppearance]

I'm reserving judgment on the rest of the changes until I've played the beta more, but I think it feels bad that Mighty Wolfgang has 50 less max health than a powered-up Wurt. Even if his 300 HP days are over, I'd like him to at least get 250 HP when he's mighty like she gets from the king.

[nervoushawking]

49 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Comments like these always reminds me on how disconnected a "pro-player" is from a regular player. 

Always maximizing, always paying attention to the numbers.

Because casuals can always rush the prestihatator, because casuals want to maximize the piggy bank so the speed loss makes "sense", because casuals want to fight the shadow piece bosses on day 21.

I guess eating juicy berries to out-run your friends and explore more of the map doesn't matter because it doesn't meat the quota, wanting to use less resources so your Wigfrid friend can make hats doesn't fit the quota, using the log suits you're Woodie friend made doesn't fit the quota. 

Hey, as Wolfgang you need to rush dragonfly before winter or you're not contributing. His damage is better than ever, so you must automatically also be better at the game and giving your team BIG GAINS. 

You need maximize, maximize, maximize. 

    
    
 Was that really your argument? A casual player can play however they want and the rework has not changed any of it. Rushing a shadow manipulator is not hard, maximizing a piggyback especially early on is a good buff and just because you can, does not mean you have to do the fight day 21. Wolfgang's max speed was expensive to maintain outside battle and even in battle, you had a constant reminder that both your attack and speed are reliant on food and so it's not always maxed damage and max speed. Now it is, the meter brings you consistently good damage with enough time to get most of the bosses down except the obvious ones before you lose said damage. Only it is much easier to stay that way. 
     
You're criticizing somebody's approach by saying somebody else might not be able to play that way, which is valid in theory but adds nothing as a counter argument to any of the points they've given. Sure you don't have to maximize your play, but some people can and they would there's nothing wrong with that. 
     
I would not say I won't miss his speed, but consistent 2x damage that holds for a good enough amount of time, no movement penalty from a piggyback or a marble suit, and being able to move structures at regular speed is a good tradeoff. 
     
And for the last argument, you will take longer to open up your map, sure, but getting it done any faster is not a game-changer, Wig can still make her helmets, you can still use a log suit your woodie friend made, I don't see your point here. If you can use better equipment that previously came at a cost you weren't willing to pay why wouldn't you? Just consider the new drops, with all the food that Wolf would save by not needing to eat all the time you can keep your eye mask and shield of terror at max durability and get good damage without needing anything else while actually adding to your team while spending minimal resources. And we're salty because we can't do it faster? Really?

 

[reallychina]

15 minutes ago, sl2va said:

That's exactly i don't like in wanda. Specifically backtrek watch crafting recipe. You need wait until winter and maybe you gonna be lucky to get walrus tusk (it's not really easy on large MP servers).

The winter hard lock for backtrek is good, it's way too powerful to have too early. The issue is map generation with 1 mctusk. triplemac biome should be standard in DST even ignoring Wanda, it's a big mistake on the part of klei for not doing this. Or provide a way to respawn tusk faster. I always use a mod to generate triple mac.

[Mert_TR]

This update sounds fun. I can't believe how toxic and pissy some of the Wolfgang players are. They making Wolfgang look bad.

[-Nick-]

On 12/9/2021 at 6:59 PM, JoeW said:

I hope Wilbur makes a cameo as one of the trained circus monkeys.

It would really put a smile on my face to see a semi origin of another character even if it's minor. Small details really bridge the DS universe together.

 

[minespatch]

2 minutes ago, Mert_TR said:

This update sounds fun. I can't believe how toxic and pissy some of the Wolfgang players are. They making Wolfgang look bad.

That's why the devs are allowing players to beta test.

[Guihhza]

8 minutes ago, reallychina said:

The winter hard lock for backtrek is good, it's way too powerful to have too early. The issue is map generation with 1 mctusk. triplemac biome should be standard in DST, it's a big mistake on the part of klei for not doing this. Or provide a way to respawn tusk faster. I always use a mod to generate triple mac.

I think it's really dumb for world gen to influence Wanda's strenght that much. 
Having a triple mac biome makes such an absurd difference and I hate how luck can be such a game defining thing.

[Instant-Noodles]

5 hours ago, JoeW said:

Hey everybody

We decided to put out a testing branch for this refresh so we can get your feedback after actually having played the refresh, rather than reacting to speculative feedback. 

While we appreciate the feedback so far, we feel like it would be best to let you see it for yourself before we make any possible adjustments to the refresh. 

A couple things to note here though. As we hadn't intended to put this build out early so there will likely be some bugs or adjustments that still need to be addressed. And, we will need some time to evaluate the feedback that we receive before making adjustments, but we wanted to give you some time over the weekend to check it out. 

To check out the Wolfgang refresh, switch over to the "Public Beta" branch. If you're not familiar with changing branches on Steam, check out this support topic: https://support.klei.com/hc/en-us/articles/360029557332-How-to-change-branches-in-Don-t-Starve-Together-Steam-

A beta on a Friday night? What an unexpected surprise! 

Potato Sack

Spoiler

 

Dumbbell + Wimpy Wolfgang with Dumbbell

Spoiler

 

Golden Dumbbell + Normal Wolfgang with Golden Dumbbell

Spoiler

 

Gembell + Mighty Wolfgang with Gembell

Spoiler

 

Mighty Gym + Mighty Gym with Potato Sack & Wolfgang

Spoiler

 

   

Wolfgang Unique Idle - Wimpy / Normal / Mighty

Spoiler

Main Menu Animation - Wimpy / Normal / Mighty (Note: Large Files)

Spoiler

 

[reallychina]

17 minutes ago, Guihhza said:

I think it's really dumb for world gen to influence Wanda's strenght that much. 
Having a triple mac biome makes such an absurd difference and I hate how luck can be such a game defining thing.

It's not just wanda, Even though wanda definitely gets the royal shaft. I've had games where i'd get day 30 cane because RNG on single mac. Super stupid. I can't even begin to imagine the horror in a multiplayer server, let alone one that has a wanda.

Klei imo is very good at balancing, all the latest reworks (wolfgang seems to be a home run too, but i didn't get to test) and addons have been great, that's why to me the lack of insight to guarantee triple mac is even more absurd. They're so good at balancing but miss something THAT obvious?

 

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, reallychina said:

It's not just wanda, Even though wanda definitely gets the royal shaft. I've had games where i'd get day 30 cane because RNG on single mac. Super stupid. I can't even begin to imagine the horror in a multiplayer server, let alone one that has a wanda.

Klei imo is very good at balancing, all the latest reworks (wolfgang seems to be a home run too, but i didn't get to test) and addons have been great, that's why to me the lack of insight to guarantee triple mac is even more absurd.

 

You can boat out and hunt treasure chests.  Canes aren't uncommon in those.

[reallychina]

1 hour ago, Exodichu said:

The concept of a gym and might meter in itself isn't bad, honestly I think it's a good idea. character specific meters are kinda starting to get annoying, but that's neither here nor there. The issue that I see many players have with it is in the execution of those ideas, which can be tweaked to make those people happy. Wolfgang should be able to raise his might without the gym, and the way one can go about doing this is, make it so that when he's at full, or close to full health, any hunger points that he gains after reaching the max hunger cap gets fed into might at a lessened rate, that way, people still have the explosive gameplay early on, but with a bit more of a challenge associated with it, and still more of an incentive to make the items and structures themselves. as for what might entails, i think that the changes done to his mighty form are unnecessary, and I've yet to see any good or convincing arguments in favor of the nerfs Now moving onto the structures themselves I'm sure most people are familiar with my thoughts on character specific structures given how much I complain about them, but to run it down one more time, Character specific structures that serve no use for other characters when said structure is not in their immediate proximity is lame and bad allowing other characters to use the character specific structures with no downside whatsoever is still pretty bad because then nobody is going to continue playing that character, see Winona So the best way to balance character specific structures is just have the character who can make it get more of a benefit from it than other characters would, so with Wolfgang just let him become mighty with the speed boost and the health increase and all that might entails, and just buff all other characters damage by like, pepper flakes damage or something along those lines, the numbers will need to be tweaked a bit here and there, and the specifics are something that can be adjusted, but overall I think this would be a rework that people would view more favorably.

 

I don't find the character specific structure idea to be bad, it's one of the things that makes them unique.

 

What i do think is a good idea is factoring in health and mightiness in some way. i wouldn't go the way you mentioned necessarily, but i'd give WF a bonus in gaining might with dumbbells IF he was at full health, therefore incentivizing not getting hit, much like wanda has that reward - high damage but needs to pay attention to the fights, not facetank.

 

14 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You can boat out and hunt treasure chests.  Canes aren't uncommon in those.

Sorry but for all intents and purposes this is absurd. The amount of time to setup long term sailing, finding hermit, playing rng on finding salvageables, rng in getting a sunken out of those and then 10% rng to get a cane...

[Parusoid]

1 hour ago, Mangrove said:

My thoughts from seeing the changes in action, as a Wolfgang main:

• The waiting around with the dumbbell isn't fun. This really pours salt into the wounds from the speed nerf.
• The mini-game is already tedious.
• Losing mighty form in long boss fights is not fun.

I don't know if you already tested it with number so here it is.

To get from 0 to 100 mighty you just need to hit space 15 times (which last about 15 seconds too) which will cost you a hunger value of one (1) Bacon and Eggs. It's hard to call it tedious especially that you won't be doing it 24/7, only before fight.
 

Mighty form and a x2 dmg mult will last almost full day if your hunger is above 150. I dont really see a here a risk of losing mighty form during boss fight and even if you do dumbell does a quick job of regaining it during one panflute sleep

[mima_]

3 minutes ago, reallychina said:

Sorry but for all intents and purposes this is absurd. The amount of time to setup long term sailing, finding hermit, playing rng on finding salvageables, rng in getting a sunken out of those and then 10% rng to get a cane...

cane is really ez. turn on winter feast . make festive tree . sleep beside it .. fell the warmth of charlie present <3 ez cane and other legit stuff early game XD

 

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, reallychina said:

Sorry but for all intents and purposes this is absurd. The amount of time to setup long term sailing, finding hermit, playing rng on finding salvageables, rng in getting a sunken out of those and then 10% rng to get a cane...

What's absurd about that?  Walrus camp only spawn during a 15 day season and themselves only have a chance to drop a tusk.  You'll probably get only 5 chances at a tusk each year.  Meanwhile once you get sailing there are treasures year round which can always yield canes.  Green gems aren't that hard to get, just deconstruct these and make more watches.  If your goal is to make a lot of these watches, the way to farm tusks is there.

[Mr Giggio]

2 hours ago, Misuto said:

 [...]A flat 2x damage bonus is insanely powerful. This is a ludicrous buff for Wolfgang, especially coming on the heels of shield of terror being added to the game. Tentacle spike was always known to be worthless on Wolfgang because you needed over 296 hunger to hit 100 damage meaning it would almost always miss that critical breakpoint. This was true for the shield of terror too. With the new system, both hit 100 all the time and that is frankly absurd. Consider, I spent early autumn exploring the surface and fighting the twins at night. I hammered down pig houses for a piggy back and the tools to beat the twins, then take the shield. piggyback, and miner's hat to the ruins. Shield now 9 shots every single clockwork enemy with no variance and I'm not being slowed down by the piggyback giving me nearly the same speed as old Wolfgang anyways. The ruins is also loaded with purple gems from the clockworks to get me the better mobile dumbbells which is an extra incentive to go there early. This is a fantastic change and allows us to play Wolfgang in a very aggressive but rewarding playstyle. Consistency is awesome. 

The loss of his speed buff is fine. It was annoying to calculate and expensive to maintain. If you ate potatoes every 40 hunger drain (5 potatoes per day to do this, btw) you only averaged an 18% speed buff anyways. If you were using a piggyback, you'd basically be the same speed back then as you are with the new update and if you adapt and use a marble suit in combat you'll actually be faster and tankier. 

TL;DR: He's better now and his speed even got buffed if you adapt to the new game state and use a piggyback/marble suit. 

[...]

Cant agree more. Yall could see the same if just drop the bone and to look at the other angles in this case

  

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Comments like these always reminds me on how disconnected a "pro-player" is from a regular player. 

Always maximizing, always paying attention to the numbers.

Because casuals can always rush the prestihatator, because casuals want to maximize the piggy bank so the speed loss makes "sense", because casuals want to fight the shadow piece bosses on day 21.

I guess eating juicy berries to out-run your friends and explore more of the map doesn't matter because it doesn't meat the quota, wanting to use less resources so your Wigfrid friend can make hats doesn't fit the quota, using the log suits you're Woodie friend made doesn't fit the quota. 

Hey, as Wolfgang you need to rush dragonfly before winter or you're not contributing. His damage is better than ever, so you must automatically also be better at the game and giving your team BIG GAINS. 

You need maximize, maximize, maximize. 

Dude seriously just pick a side
i did read the whole thread and sooner u was talkin about how much u want the mov speed back and why all the old buffs are necessary cuz u want to do stuff better or else fighting will be bad and now u r just counter arguing them for wantin to maximize what the character gives to the table

not cool

[JustExo]

1 hour ago, reallychina said:

There is no reason for a character to be super sayan by day one, that's bad design

I disagree with the idea that a character being as strong as wolfgang could be day one is bad design, I think that it's just an optional way to play wolfgang that allows for other players to have new and interesting "routes" they can take for accomplishing the things that they want to

11 minutes ago, reallychina said:

 

I don't find the character specific structure idea to be bad, it's one of the things that makes them unique.

My biggest issue with character specific structures is that, some of them like Warly's crockpots become useless without Warly being in their immediate proximity, which in a game where you aren't going to constantly have your team mate warly around is pretty annoying. A potential solution could be to take the route that klei took with the item Bernie; other characters can use it, but you aren't going to get the maximum mileage out of it, that being BERNIE! without willow being present. Ultimately this prevents a repeat of Winona in which players put down the characters and swap to someone else, by providing an incentive to stay that character. 
Something like this being added to wolfgang would be incredibly neat and interesting for not only him, but for other characters and would provide something else for the team around him. 

 

5 minutes ago, MrSoratori said:

Dude seriously just pick a side
i did read the whole thread and sooner u was talkin about how much u want the mov speed back and why all the old buffs are necessary cuz u want to do stuff better or else fighting will be bad and now u r just counter arguing him for wantin to maximize what the character gives to the table

I think the buffs aren't necessary per se, but removing the buffs was also not necessary. Overall what I think this update does more than anything is hinder the playstyle that other people choose to have with the character without bringing much else to the table. Wolfgang lost his speed boost which is incredibly important for a lot of wolfgang players, and instead replaced it with something that requires you to stand still which is by and large what I think rubs people the wrong way. 

[hhh2]

3 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

my thoughts:

 

yeah pretty much. God, it's so much worse than i thought. Honestly, this might be the worst refresh so far. yet another thing to sink rock and twigs into.

wolfgang is now F teir both in fun and viability, he's basically a sometimes higher sometimes lower damage wilson now ;-; 

Pls Klei don't publish this.