Abigail Should Require a Sacrifice

[Pig Princess]

I generally agree with original post, but think that list should include all kinds of fish, wobsters and carrats, in other words, unstackable innocent animals.

That would change balance though, since Wendy would need to bring living animal to a dangerous place "just in case", sacrificing inventory slot, or deal with 0.75 damage downside in case player is not careful. But moleworms require 1 use of hammer to capture, in the caves rabbits, moleworms, carrats fall from the ceiling ready to be picked, and if one is at lunar island, it's 1 use of shovel, if at sea - it's 0 resources provided fish would work, also in the swamp there usually is freshwater fish dropped by dead merms (or one could make them die).

By the way, I'm against "Wendy op Klei please nerf" thing, when people suggest tedious and bland stuff like reducing Wendy's damage, Abigail's max health or damage, Wendy's max health, taking away Abi's AoE (wat?..) because this either won't change Wendy's gameplay and add more grind, or will destroy unique gameplay at all (or make it not worth it compared to Wilson, which leads to the same conclusion). But interesting mechanics leading to different playstyles are another story, provided they don't imply 1 single way how to play and aren't working ok only in default worlds, because downside can make character more fun to play, in my opinion.

 

[Wendy C.]

24 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I generally agree with original post, but think that list should include all kinds of fish, wobsters and carrats, in other words, unstackable innocent animals.

That would change balance though, since Wendy would need to bring living animal to a dangerous place "just in case", sacrificing inventory slot, or deal with 0.75 damage downside in case player is not careful. But moleworms require 1 use of hammer to capture, in the caves rabbits, moleworms, carrats fall from the ceiling ready to be picked, and if one is at lunar island, it's 1 use of shovel, if at sea - it's 0 resources provided fish would work, also in the swamp there usually is freshwater fish dropped by dead merms (or one could make them die).

By the way, I'm against "Wendy op Klei please nerf" thing, when people suggest tedious and bland stuff like reducing Wendy's damage, Abigail's max health or damage, Wendy's max health, taking away Abi's AoE (wat?..) because this either won't change Wendy's gameplay and add more grind, or will destroy unique gameplay at all (or make it not worth it compared to Wilson, which leads to the same conclusion). But interesting mechanics leading to different playstyles are another story, provided they don't imply 1 single way how to play and aren't working ok only in default worlds, because downside can make character more fun to play, in my opinion.

 

This is the first post that actually feels genuinely constructive, rather than just "no, u wrong, wendy perfect". 
Yes, expanding the list to include any unstackable innocent animals seems appropriate, although Fish are not considered "innocent" in the game's code. 

[Echsrick]

6 minutes ago, Wendy C. said:

Fish are not considered "innocent" in the game's code. 

wait realy? this realy is something you normaly would not notice and normaly someone would just asume its like rabbits that they count as innocents i mean it kinda makes sense i soupose thats left so because fish worked differend and was just an food item before it was more of an actual mob but still kinda weird there not innocents

[sudoku]

Having to do a sacrfice, in terms of gameplay, wasnt interesting, but it was a nice atmospheric bit of flavor and the removal of this interaction definitley takes character and story away from these two making Abigail just another game mechanic.

[W0l0l0]

3 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

For a game that advertises itself as *uncompromising*, it's fans sure seem to want everything handed to them for free. 

Why do you think she's so popular .

Jokes aside, I can always respect someone who is willing and open to nerf their favourite character because they believe its for the better. I don't have any other contributions. 

[Terra B Welch]

16 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Having to do a sacrfice, in terms of gameplay, wasnt interesting, but it was a nice atmospheric bit of flavor and the removal of this interaction definitley takes character and story away from these two making Abigail just another game mechanic.

 

8 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

Why do you think she's so popular .

Jokes aside, I can always respect someone who is willing and open to nerf their favourite character because they believe its for the better. I don't have any other contributions. 

Really at this point, my issue is the limited "options" to summon her, Being only just "Moleworms, Rabbits or Birds", to me that's not hard, or uncompromising, that's just plain tedious and uninteresting.

I did get an idea though related to this, what if the mob in question's sacrifice had some impact on abigail, make it reward the player for taking down a tougher target without her assistance? That to me would keep things interesting, add a requirement for summoning her, and wouldn't be as "tedious" or "having to go out of my way and waste time to do" and would reflect her old means of summoning. That's my thought.

[Pig Princess]

3 minutes ago, Terra B Welch said:

what if the mob in question's sacrifice had some impact on abigail, make it reward the player for taking down a tougher target without her assistance?

Could you write some examples?

[Baark0]

4 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

I already said this isn't about Nerfing the character so you just don't like the idea of things not going exactly the way you want them. 
"Waaaah!! i'm not getting exactly what I want the second I want it, waaah!!! I'm being expected to put effort into this game to succeed, waaah!!!" 
That's you. 

ah yes, effort in making a trap and killing a rabbit

fair enough you like the sacrifice, honestly i wouldnt be opposed to it being added in the way you described, i really dont see much problem with it. killing 1 critter is not hard to do, moleworms take 0 resources to kill. im not sure how much it fits though, since i dont really think abigail is the type of ghost to require a blood sacrifice to be summoned

oh im looking at this now and theres 2 more pages of discussion oh boy this will be fun

[minespatch]

5 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

adding small perks like Wormwood not losing sanity from being wet because he is a plant,

They should give those perks to Wormwood and Wurt. Totally in their characters.

[Terra B Welch]

59 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Could you write some examples?

Sorry for taking so long to respond, my internet crapped.

I was thinking, kill a small mob like a bunny and sure, you can summon her, but she won't be immediately strong, but if you can kill a stronger mob maybe it both activates her flower and gives her a headstart towards her next power level(like maybe killing a beefalo or koalefant would activate the flower and give her a couple minute headstart towards level 2, or her 300hp self), combined with the sisturn it would allow a player to get her back to level 3 quicker by killing a stronger mob without her assistance, like maybe killing a boss would give her enough to be level 2 with a good way towards level 3.

I feel that would be more risk = more reward, and to me would also mean less tedium, the bigger the foe, the more blood will be shed and sacrificed in comparison to a little rabbit or bird.

[Wendy C.]

12 minutes ago, Terra B Welch said:

Sorry for taking so long to respond, my internet crapped.

I was thinking, kill a small mob like a bunny and sure, you can summon her, but she won't be immediately strong, but if you can kill a stronger mob maybe it both activates her flower and gives her a headstart towards her next power level(like maybe killing a beefalo or koalefant would activate the flower and give her a couple minute headstart towards level 2, or her 300hp self), combined with the sisturn it would allow a player to get her back to level 3 quicker by killing a stronger mob without her assistance, like maybe killing a boss would give her enough to be level 2 with a good way towards level 3.

I feel that would be more risk = more reward, and to me would also mean less tedium, the bigger the foe, the more blood will be shed and sacrificed in comparison to a little rabbit or bird.

This is a genuinely good take and I'm very thankful you've put it forward.
Your previous responses consisted of "no, no, no, no, you're wrong" so forgive me if I seemed a bit heated. 
But this here is a very good addition to my initial idea. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Yes pls

I love how macabre is DS wendy and was sad to see that they removed it

And it will make wendys downside noticeable

[Friendly Grass]

I imagine the reason Klei simplified the process of summoning Abigail is because Wendy’s mechanics and gameplay center around Abigail, and so it should at least be easy and intuitive to summon her for players new to Wendy. They might need help to learn her in depth mechanics but they should at least be able to expierence Wendy as a unique character. Does that make sense?

[TemporaryMan]

10 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

[equivalent exchange, snipped for brevity]

I was specific because butterflies and bees is too easy, and hounds and spiders are too evil. 

I'm not gonna disagree with equivalent exchange, that's a respectable trope.  But who says the spiders are evil?

(It's Krampus.  Krampus says they're evil.  Or Klei, if you prefer a Doylist answer.)

But not everyone would agree with that!  Some people really like spiders and study them professionally and I am very glad I don't have their jobs.

Don't Click This, It's Full of Spiders!  (well, just a close-up of one lazy spider not doing anything, with a zoom-in to show the heart beat; it's not too bad)

Spoiler

...your YouTube recommendations, on the other hand, are now absolutely full of spiders.  There is no going back.  This is where we live now.

But on a more practical note somebody could just make a mod to restore sacrifices with options to make everyone happy.  I'll take a stab at it over the weekend but I'm suuuuuper rusty with DS modding and I have a full-time job atm so I'll probably get ninja'd by someone who actually knows what they're doing.

 

7 hours ago, Baark0 said:

im not sure how much it fits though, since i dont really think abigail is the type of ghost to require a blood sacrifice to be summoned

She has been since the Strange New Powers update, which was 8 years ago to the day.  

[Cheggf]

The spammability of Abigail isn't why Wendy is so powerful. While this fits thematically, I don't think theme should be prioritized over gameplay.

14 hours ago, Terra B Welch said:

That's like forcing Wortox to only kill a specific set of mobs for souls, I cannot agree.

Wortox does have to only kill a specific set of mobs for souls. Automatons (Clockworks, WX) and shadows yield no souls, Webber yields two souls, and greater beings (Anything(?) with over 1,000 health) yield 7 or 8 souls.

I didn't read all 3 pages so sorry if someone said that before and I'm just repeating them.

[Wendy C.]

5 hours ago, TemporaryMan said:

But on a more practical note somebody could just make a mod to restore sacrifices with options to make everyone happy.  I'll take a stab at it over the weekend but I'm suuuuuper rusty with DS modding and I have a full-time job atm so I'll probably get ninja'd by someone who actually knows what they're doing.

I would like to see how this mod turns out if you try it...

[Keller Max]

Back to good ol days?

[Wendy C.]

4 minutes ago, Keller Max said:

You flatter me, sir. 

[Terra B Welch]

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

The spammability of Abigail isn't why Wendy is so powerful. While this fits thematically, I don't think theme should be prioritized over gameplay.

Wortox does have to only kill a specific set of mobs for souls. Automatons (Clockworks, WX) and shadows yield no souls, Webber yields two souls, and greater beings (Anything(?) with over 1,000 health) yield 7 or 8 souls.

I didn't read all 3 pages so sorry if someone said that before and I'm just repeating them.

He can still kill alot more then just 3 different mobs, and you really should go back and read all 3 pages.

[Cheggf]

9 minutes ago, Terra B Welch said:

He can still kill alot more then just 3 different mobs, and you really should go back and read all 3 pages.

Okay, now I dislike the idea of requiring a sacrifice a bit less, but I still feel like the Wortox comparison doesn't really stand as a solid argument. Wortox still has to kill a creature from a certain list, it's just that list is a bit bigger than 3. If he's underground the list is pretty close to 3, too.

[Terra B Welch]

Just now, Cheggf said:

Okay, now I dislike the idea of requiring a sacrifice a bit less, but I still feel like the Wortox comparison doesn't really stand as a solid argument. Wortox still has to kill a creature from a certain list, it's just that list is a bit bigger than 3.

My complaint on it was that specifically a rabbit, moleworm or bird isn't hard or uncompromising, rather the opposite, it's boring and uninteresting.

I posted my own idea related to that mechanic if you've not read it already.

[Wendy C.]

6 hours ago, Terra B Welch said:

My complaint on it was that specifically a rabbit, moleworm or bird isn't hard or uncompromising, rather the opposite, it's boring and uninteresting.

I posted my own idea related to that mechanic if you've not read it already.

My idea for requiring one of those prey animals was specifically because they were not difficult. They are easy, simple, and readily available. 
They were the lowest-possible limitation I could think of that still required SOME amount of effort. 
This is why I didn't allow butterflies or bees, because they are so easy as to be completely meaningless. 
These animals are still not difficult or time consuming, but they at the very least still represented the idea of magic requiring a cost. 

[Mysterious box]

On 7/2/2021 at 6:44 PM, Baark0 said:

ah yes, effort in making a trap and killing a rabbit

fair enough you like the sacrifice, honestly i wouldnt be opposed to it being added in the way you described, i really dont see much problem with it. killing 1 critter is not hard to do, moleworms take 0 resources to kill. im not sure how much it fits though, since i dont really think abigail is the type of ghost to require a blood sacrifice to be summoned

oh im looking at this now and theres 2 more pages of discussion oh boy this will be fun

Actually pre refresh and in single player DS she does require a blood sacrifice even if it's wendy herself.

[Terra B Welch]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Actually pre refresh and in single player DS she does require a blood sacrifice even if it's wendy herself.

Here's the thing though, that blood sacrifice could be anything that you could kill.

I still think that if this were to be implemented that it goes the risk-reward route I suggested, I just feel it would keep the flow going rather then stopping abruptly to go get one critter.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Terra B Welch said:

Here's the thing though, that blood sacrifice could be anything that you could kill.

I still think that if this were to be implemented that it goes the risk-reward route I suggested, I just feel it would keep the flow going rather then stopping abruptly to go get one critter.

Never said I had a issue with this.