Can we talk about Walter's bee allergy for a second

[TemporarySolutn]

1 minute ago, BoySyrup said:

10 damage that pierces through armor that you can’t counter. Makes fighting bee queen legitimately a pain and serves no purpose in accordance with Walter’s other perks.

beehat, and yes it is not a perk thing it is a character thing, it is unique

[MondayNight]

As a Willow-Walter co-main I can underline that, while on paper Walter's pros-and-cons feel all over the place and bloated, in actual game-play you will only care about range-damage strats, pellet variety and inherent functionality, plus managing his sanity con - either by not being hit, or by mitigating it via constant Shadow combat and/or Sanity food intake. All other minor perks and deficiencies are ignorable (I usually ditch his Pioneer Hat day one since I will never use it, I seldom interact with bees and when I do I almost never get stung - hence the "allergies" con feels non-existent to me, I never employ his Tent Roll since I never use the sleep mechanic for stats recovery with any character, I only make usage of his "tell stories" perk for memes/jokes when being with groups of people at night in same place - a very rare occurrence in my case, and likewise I ignore his sanity-from-trees bon, only instance I notice it being when my sanity rises a bit after spending some time cutting trees). What I find moderately helpful though is his ability to use Willow lighter on-the-go, akin Willow's (Oh, those moments of small happiness when I find random Willow corpses with Ligher and Bernie!). And, of course, by now Woby is a staple of Walter's function, a day-1 way of moving Suspicious Marble Statues' Heads plus Moon Altars, same for easy all-map exploration in 1st Autumn. But yes, I wouldn't mind - actually I would encourage this - if some of his "facultative" pluses-and-minuses would be shaven off; for example: Bee allergy, Tent Roll, tree-proximity sanity.

[TemporarySolutn]

On 6/27/2021 at 12:02 PM, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

As a Willow-Walter co-main I can underline that, while on paper Walter's pros-and-cons feel all over the place and bloated, in actual game-play you will only care about range-damage strats, pellet variety and inherent functionality, plus managing his sanity con - either by not being hit, or by mitigating it via constant Shadow combat and/or Sanity food intake. All other minor perks and deficiencies are ignorable (I usually ditch his Pioneer Hat day one since I will never use it, I seldom interact with bees and when I do I almost never get stung - hence the "allergies" con feels non-existent to me, I never employ his Tent Roll since I never use the sleep mechanic for stats recovery with any character, I only make usage of his "tell stories" perk for memes when with groups of people at night in same place - a very rare occurrence in my case, and likewise I ignore his sanity-from-trees bon, only time I notice it being when my sanity rises a bit after spending some time cutting trees). What I find moderately helpful though is his ability to use Willow lighter on-the-go, akin Willow's (Oh, those moments of small happiness when I find random Willow corpses with Ligher and Bernie!). And, of course, by now Woby is a staple of Walter's function, a day-1 way of moving Suspicious Marble Statues' Heads plus Moon Altars, same for easy all-map exploration in 1st Autumn. But yes, I wouldn't mind - actually I would encourage this - if some of his "facultative" pluses-and-minuses would be shaven off - for example: Bee allergy, Tent Roll, tree-proximity sanity.

I don't have to read this entire paragraph to know the sum is just "the disability really isn't that present" and derail completely,  and to that I say just because it isnt that present it cant be a stupid and unnecessary feature, I personally like the bee allergy but I can also see how it is completely out there and if they are "all over the place and bloated", that is not good character or gameplay design especially if you only care about one thing

[MondayNight]

5 minutes ago, TemporarySolutn said:

I don't have to read this entire paragraph to know the sum is just "the disability really isn't that present" and derail completely,  and to that I say just because it cant be a stupid and unnecessary feature, I personally like the bee allergy but I can also see how it is completely out there and if they are "all over the place and bloated", that is not good character or gameplay design especially if you only care about one thing

I haven't wrote "Walter is a good design". I concur he isn't in the end. But merely that I have adapted to his play-style and I like him very much for his ranged combat mechanic - which is indeed unique and very-much a core game-play element - quite very useful in easy Krampus-farm setup while getting in the process stacks of morsels exchangeable into gold (1:9 ratio) and/or made into various foods. His sniping mechanic has a solid role in melee kite-combat too. And while you apparently cherish him for his "bee allergy" con, in practice and with my play-style I seldom experienced it to the point of ignoring this entire aspect completely. To each their own I guess.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

This works with Walter. Takes some skill and planning, but is definitely not cheesing. Walter may need a few more perogies and some cooked cactus though.

The alternatives are to either use bunnymen while you slingshot, or play with friends. Or take a couple of hours of your time and just no hit slingshot her, there are videos on that, but that’s just painful.

I didn't say you can't kill bee queen as walter without cheese, I said it becomes far more impractical to try it

33 minutes ago, TemporarySolutn said:

beehat

the bee hat doesn't negate the extra 10 damage

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

If you want to bee queen day 5, Walter is just not the guy for it

I shouldn't be denied the option for it just for "flavor"

[TemporarySolutn]

18 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

the bee hat doesn't negate the extra 10 damage

that seems like an oversight tbh

54 minutes ago, BoySyrup said:

10 damage that pierces through armor that you can’t counter. Makes fighting bee queen legitimately a pain and serves no purpose in accordance with Walter’s other perks.

that is not how bee hat should work, thats kinda wacky

[Dextops]

as a saladmander once told me "just don't get hit"

[Mysterious box]

7 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Honestly I gave up on balance altogether.

Not sure why but the devs just seem to keep pumping out content with very little regard to balance in the game. Its why i don't care for changing Wendy anymore and why I don't write wormwood suggestions anymore. 

They just keep kicking the can down the road, except the cans keep piling up. The enlightenment crown was the straw that broke the camels back for me and how the balance is all over the place, especially for Willow and Maxwell. I give up.

I still like to interact with the community and add my two cents every now and then though. Oh and the spicy, spicy memes. 

I agree balance is dead and people seem to want characters to be even stronger take webber for example in his current state by virtue of his new follower system he's a varg that heals itself honestly when nurses dropped I felt it was overkill even before I found out they healed webber yet people are downplaying a self sustaining horde with no size restrictions as weak even if kiel never added nurses having access to hordes with no upkeep cost is stupidly unbalanced.

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, Atkvin said:

That is probably the point. To only make characters more fun and unique.

Characters not having drawbacks is the opposite of making then fun and unique. The only characters that really feel unique to play are Wormwood & Warly (and maybe Wigfrid/Wurt/Wortox), because they have to do things at least a little differently. Everyone else is just the same gameplay but at different speeds for different activities.

[SinancoTheBest]

11 hours ago, TemporarySolutn said:

 

that seems like an oversight tbh

that is not how bee hat should work, thats kinda wacky

why not, it's an allergy, no matter the protection you wear, your cells are going to biologically react to it negatively. It seems like that's the exact intended functionality of the drawback- to be noticeable and pronounced, unlike a number of weak unnoticeable drawbacks such as Wickerbottom's dislike of stale food or the mild annoyance WX gets from humidity.

[Waynel]

what about a new type of ammo : pebbles which would stun the target for 6 seconds. the recipe would be expensive : 2 living logs and 2 orange gems for 6 pebbles.

[Scrimbles]

Walter is a mess, he seems like a variety of randomly picked upsides and downsides plopped into a character with no rhyme or reason.

The Bee allergy stuff is... a joke, I guess? If he were a well designed character he might have some more interesting interactions with bees, but have that extra downside to compensate, but nope, just boring ol' Walter.

[Mysterious box]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:54 AM, BoySyrup said:

10 damage that pierces through armor that you can’t counter. Makes fighting bee queen legitimately a pain and serves no purpose in accordance with Walter’s other perks.

I mean it's a downside not a perk so it doesn't need to.

42 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Walter is a mess, he seems like a variety of randomly picked upsides and downsides plopped into a character with no rhyme or reason.

The Bee allergy stuff is... a joke, I guess? If he were a well designed character he might have some more interesting interactions with bees, but have that extra downside to compensate, but nope, just boring ol' Walter.

I mean maybe from a gameplay perspective maybe but thematically his perks work very well all his perks are on theme.

[MikoFanboy]

On 6/27/2021 at 9:13 PM, Mooagain said:

Are they really? All the main things Walter can do revolve around his health-sanity link, that's why he's called the fearless.

The slingshot is makes Walter a ranged attacker, helping him avoid damage with the small trade off for slightly lower max dps.

The tent makes it easier to restore health and sanity at a cost of time, which is fair because he has trouble with all three stats but no issue for time with the speed boost.

Woby gives extra inventory space to make up for the three to five extra slots you need to carry the slingshot and ammo, as well as giving a speed boost which makes it much easier to use the slingshot without other players tanking for you.

The other effects are less connected, but also not super impactful on gameplay and just serve to add some more characterization. The tree and campfire sanity boosts and the bee allergy add some nice flavor that I wish other characters had to make them feel more like real people. 

maybe "all over the place" isn't the right words but...
for a character, he kinda has too much? yet he isn't important to the lore (atcually, other than accidentally being pulled in the constant, does he has anything to do with lore? at least Wes saved some guy)

He can:
craft a portable tent
use slingshot
craft  an exclusive hat
cook faster with campfire 

use willow lighter for cooking

have Woby, a free chester
turn Woby into a bootleg beefalo
not lose sanity from negative aura effects

He loses only half the normal Hunger when Sleeping.

tell stories at a Campfire

restore +6 sanity/min when there are more than 5 Trees

and his downside:

loses sanity when he loses health

bee allergy that he can only be affected by four specific mob in the whole game 

can't gain sanity from clothing items

can't have pet from rockden because he already has one
------------------

now, name me a Don't starve character that has that much stuff going with them

also Woby, how does nobody in the constant know or found her yet a kid that accidentally being pulled in the constant can (Wortox, Webber, WIlson, Maxwell, CHARLIE? HELLO?)

I feel like Klei just desgin a boy scott and try to add everything a boy scott can then add the downside as an afterthought

and give him a dog/chester/beefalo because why not?  

[metallichydra]

44 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

I feel like Klei just desgin a boy scott and try to add everything a boy scott can then add the downside as an afterthought

and give him a dog/chester/beefalo because why not?  

The dog/chester/beefalo was added so he can be a good boy scout who wants to bring the dog back to its owner.

[Ohan]

32 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

now, name me a Don't starve character that has that much stuff going with them

maybe Wormwood to be honest  but hes a more coherent, unique and fun to play character. 

I like Walter's character design visually (although i cant stand the buggy eyebrow and his voice is maybe a bit polarizing too) 

ive had some fun as him the few times ive played him in public servers farming birds with gold ammo and exploring the caves on Woby. In my opinion hes definitely a more interesting and fun character than winona (but thats a low bar in my book lol ) 

i think its a pity that Walter didnt really take off judging from forum polls where hes consistently among the lowest if not lowest in popularity cuz as i said i think hes a visually cool and fun character. and I could use some Woby assistance when im moving around giant crops on public servers 

[Electroely]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean it's a downside not a perk so it doesn't need to.

I think it's a lame downside, though. It doesn't add anything to the gameplay... it just makes 2 mobs slightly more annoying and a boss impractical to kill.

You don't even play around it; bees and killer bees are easy to dodge as-is and you never have a reason to get by them in the first place, especially as the character that gets punished more for getting hit by anything. Bee queen is practically impossible to kite so the only options are to either cheese it, have other people do the majority of the fight for you or bring twice as much healing or more and waste more time using it mid-fight to not die.

[Mooagain]

16 minutes ago, MikoFanboy said:

now, name me a Don't starve character that has that much stuff going with them

Wagstaff

Also in terms of lore he's actually got a lot with the mystery of Woby, and the way he was captured not fitting with everyone else. He was the only character not taken by Maxwell or Charlie, so there's quite a bit of mystery there. Who put the radio in Woodie's cabin? Given how long he had been gone based on the state of the place and the time Voxola was made I doubt that it belonged to Woodie. 

Woby is quite the mystery, it's hard to tell if she's a normal earth dog or not, maybe all dogs change if we feed them monster meat (anyone who owns a dog try feeding it spider meat and tell me if it gets bigger, this is important for science). If Woby is from the constant, who could she have belonged to? someone had to give her that collar, and it certainly wasn't one of the player characters.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Electroely said:

I think it's a lame downside, though. It doesn't add anything to the gameplay... it just makes 2 mobs slightly more annoying and a boss impractical to kill.

You don't even play around it; bees and killer bees are easy to dodge as-is and you never have a reason to get by them in the first place, especially as the character that gets punished more for getting hit by anything. Bee queen is practically impossible to kite so the only options are to either cheese it, have other people do the majority of the fight for you or bring twice as much healing or more and waste more time using it mid-fight to not die.

I mean neither does being slightly more fearful of monsters, rain damage, hating spoilage, or getting colder slightly faster... and as far as I know very few people fight bee queen legitimately(meaning with actually players instead of risk free followers)

[Roodmas]

I personally don't understand why balance is so important to people in this game. Unless you play PvP of course, this is a game of people working together for common goals. In my opinion, a character is well designed if it can help the team in a way no other character can.

Now that is where Walter kinda fails, he can do a lot of things but none of them are really unique to him. In spite of this I like his design, he has a few downsides but those are really big ones, and they make you reconsider your play style with him. He just needs a few tweaks 

Might as well throw in my two cents on Wendy. Yes the downside of damage reduction is basically non existent now, but for that you have to use Abigail, and that takes a good amount of skill. Against a lot of bosses, Abigail is either super vulnerable or impractical, unless you are really good at managing her movement, her aggro and her potion buffs.

And at the end of the day if you're good at the game then you're good at the game, and no amount of downsides are going to hold you back.

I've read everything in this thread up to this point, and let me say that everyone is entitled to their opinions, I'm not denying that, but I can easily see how these issues are difficult to resolve. On one hand we have people who complain that there are no downsides anymore, on the other hand Walter has a marginally big downside with his allergy that people want removed.

One thing I have beef with thought, complaining that a character exists that you can't take down Bee Queen with on day 5... well the game is also denying me of defeating Fuelweaver on day 5. What do.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, MikoFanboy said:

maybe "all over the place" isn't the right words but...
for a character, he kinda has too much? yet he isn't important to the lore (atcually, other than accidentally being pulled in the constant, does he has anything to do with lore? at least Wes saved some guy)

He can:
craft a portable tent
use slingshot
craft  an exclusive hat
cook faster with campfire 

use willow lighter for cooking

have Woby, a free chester
turn Woby into a bootleg beefalo
not lose sanity from negative aura effects

He loses only half the normal Hunger when Sleeping.

tell stories at a Campfire

restore +6 sanity/min when there are more than 5 Trees

and his downside:

loses sanity when he loses health

bee allergy that he can only be affected by four specific mob in the whole game 

can't gain sanity from clothing items

can't have pet from rockden because he already has one
------------------

now, name me a Don't starve character that has that much stuff going with them

also Woby, how does nobody in the constant know or found her yet a kid that accidentally being pulled in the constant can (Wortox, Webber, WIlson, Maxwell, CHARLIE? HELLO?)

I feel like Klei just desgin a boy scott and try to add everything a boy scott can then add the downside as an afterthought

and give him a dog/chester/beefalo because why not?  

I mean aside from wilson, maxwell and those with ties to wagstaff, charlie, or maxwell who is important to the lore?

[Electroely]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean neither does being slightly more fearful of monsters, rain damage, hating spoilage, or getting colder slightly faster... and as far as I know very few people fight bee queen legitimately(meaning with actually players instead of risk free followers)

I'm against cheesing and all that; Whenever I fight bosses with friends I always avoid taking an excess amount of followers or using setups that render the boss incapable of doing anything. In that regard, If I were to pick Walter I'd pretty much be stuck using the slingshot with its subpar damage since I would take too much damage if I were to attack it head-on with a dark sword or glass cutter.

I also never said those are good downsides. Wolfgang's "fear" isn't noticeable at all, and WX-78's wetness damage does too little to make you prioritize rain protection over other gear.

At least the other two downsides you've listed have an impact on gameplay - You get even less hunger from going too long without producing fresh food as Wickerbottom, and winter clothing being less effective combined with the increased freezing damage Willow takes would make you more likely to either get better insulation than you would normally or burn things more often to stay alive, leading to more frequent interruptions if your freezing protection isn't good enough.

Better examples of downsides would be Wormwood's, which disallows him from using the healing food he has the most ease mass producing and makes him more likely to consider other healing sources like healing salves, tents, etc... Wortox's half stats from food makes his soul abilities more of an alternate playstyle than a perk over other characters, and Walter's sanity loss from taking damage and lack of dapperness sanity combined with his fearlessness makes sanity management as him completely different from other characters.

[Guille6785]

28 minutes ago, Roodmas said:

I've read everything in this thread up to this point, and let me say that everyone is entitled to their opinions, I'm not denying that, but I can easily see how these issues are difficult to resolve. On one hand we have people who complain that there are no downsides anymore, on the other hand Walter has a marginally big downside with his allergy that people want removed.

One thing I have beef with thought, complaining that a character exists that you can't take down Bee Queen with on day 5... well the game is also denying me of defeating Fuelweaver on day 5. What do.

I mentioned this in the original post, the downside feels weird because all it does is deny more experienced players the option to fight bee queen without exploits with a reasonable amount of resources, and that's essentially just punishing skilled players for trying strategies that require skill as a character that takes skill to utilize effectively (???)

the bee downside has no impact for a player who won't attempt bee queen without cheese (or bother fighting her at all)

a fair comparison I'd like to make here is something helicalpuma (rip) brought up a while back, the bone cage dodge getting nerfed from the fuelweaver fight basically accomplished nothing except deny players that were seeking higher risk/higher reward strategies the option of foregoing the lazy explorer from the non-cheese fuelweaver fight; pretty similar to what happens with the bee allergy, it's basically klei "nerfing skill"

[Mysterious box]

I think the downside was made in the context of dst being a multiplayer game I understand that might be frustrating tho

[Roodmas]

21 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I mentioned this in the original post, the downside feels weird because all it does is deny more experienced players the option to fight bee queen without exploits with a reasonable amount of resources, and that's essentially just punishing skilled players for trying strategies that require skill as a character that takes skill to utilize effectively (???)

the bee downside has no impact for a player who won't attempt bee queen without cheese (or bother fighting her at all)

a fair comparison I'd like to make here is something helicalpuma (rip) brought up a while back, the bone cage dodge getting nerfed from the fuelweaver fight basically accomplished nothing except deny players that were seeking higher risk/higher reward strategies the option of foregoing the lazy explorer from the non-cheese fuelweaver fight; pretty similar to what happens with the bee allergy, it's basically klei "nerfing skill"

I see your points. It definitely makes me thing whether Walter can use any non-cheesy methods against Bee Queen. I have never attempted that fight as him, is it a lot of grind to just stay away from her and defeat her in ranged combat? I'm genuinely curious.

Then again, maybe he's supposed to be more of a support character on the sidelines in this fight, because as mentioned above:

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I think the downside was made in the context of dst being a multiplayer game

Playing solo is a self-made challenge in this game. I understand of course that a lot of people don't have a group of friends who are really good at the game.