Can we talk about Walter's bee allergy for a second

[Theukon-dos]

23 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

keep in mind that woby and sanity are two separate perks; they're not supposed to work together in this case, but complaining about that is the same as complaining that "willow isn't a cohesive character because bernie has nothing to do with the lighter", they're just different upsides on one character

Ok, but I could go on for hours about how Bernie's existence is a crime against humanity.

 

Willow is the "The Firestarter"

Willow's personality can be boiled down to "Pyromaniac"

Willow's perks and downsides in DS where built around her being "The Firestarter"

Even in DST, She still had her lighter and fire resistance. So even if it was neutered, she was still "The Firestarter".

 

Bernie was added as a "We're sorry we shot your main in the knees and left her to die in the woods" after Klei stripped her of 90% of her character for the sake of dealing with griefers. (Which is a problem in and of itself for a whole list of reasons. but that's for another day). So them choosing to almost completely ignore her defining character trait and focus on the damned bear for her re-fresh is an insult.

 

Like, you're a Wendy main, right? Imagine if they nerfed Abigail to have 300 HP and only deal single target damage when DST came out, and then years later they buffed Abigail's HP to 350 and decided to make Wendy's main perk about flowers. That's basically what happened with Willow

[Guille6785]

1 minute ago, Theukon-dos said:

Ok, but I could go on for hours about how Bernie's existence is a crime against humanity.

 

Willow is the "The Firestarter"

Willow's personality can be boiled down to "Pyromaniac"

Willow's perks and downsides in DS where built around her being "The Firestarter"

Even in DST, She still had her lighter and fire resistance. So even if it was neutered, she was still "The Firestarter".

 

Bernie was added as a "We're sorry we shot your main in the knees and left her to die in the woods" after Klei stripped her of 90% of her character for the sake of dealing with griefers. (Which is a problem in and of itself for a whole list of reasons. but that's for another day). So them choosing to almost completely ignore her defining character trait and focus on the damned bear for her re-fresh is an insult.

 

Like, you're a Wendy main, right? Imagine if they nerfed Abigail to have 300 HP and only deal single target damage when DST came out, and then years later they buffed Abigail's HP to 350 and decided to make Wendy's main perk about flowers. That's basically what happened with Willow

I don't disagree, maybe we'll discuss willow rework 2 in the near future

[Captain_Rage]

?

 

Willow's strength revolves around fire and heat, and managing them. Not sure what you are getting at. I've only been playing as Willow since DST was conceived and currently it definitely feels like her main perk is about fire, lol.

[SuperMeatGoy]

48 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Ok, but I could go on for hours about how Bernie's existence is a crime against humanity.

 

Willow is the "The Firestarter"

Willow's personality can be boiled down to "Pyromaniac"

Willow's perks and downsides in DS where built around her being "The Firestarter"

Even in DST, She still had her lighter and fire resistance. So even if it was neutered, she was still "The Firestarter".

 

Bernie was added as a "We're sorry we shot your main in the knees and left her to die in the woods" after Klei stripped her of 90% of her character for the sake of dealing with griefers. (Which is a problem in and of itself for a whole list of reasons. but that's for another day). So them choosing to almost completely ignore her defining character trait and focus on the damned bear for her re-fresh is an insult.

 

Like, you're a Wendy main, right? Imagine if they nerfed Abigail to have 300 HP and only deal single target damage when DST came out, and then years later they buffed Abigail's HP to 350 and decided to make Wendy's main perk about flowers. That's basically what happened with Willow

As an ex-willow main since before DST was released I can testify this man is stating facts.

[Theukon-dos]

13 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

?

 

Willow's strength revolves around fire and heat, and managing them. Not sure what you are getting at. I've only been playing as Willow since DST was conceived and currently it definitely feels like her main perk is about fire, lol.

In DS, Willow would light fires when her sanity was low, and a trick many people liked to use was lighting items in her inventory on fire to basically give yourself a kill aura. Also her lighter was infinite durability.

 

when DST first launched, They removed her fire immunity, gave the lighter durability, and gave her an entirely new downside that was... Well honestly I don't know how bad it was, I just know that people hated it. And they also gave her Bernie, who distracted shadows.

 

And with her re-fresh, they made her restore more fuel for fire pits and added BERNIE! And fire immunity? Willow's defining trait in the single player game? The forums literally had to riot to get that given back to her.

[W0l0l0]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

Bernie was added as a "We're sorry we shot your main in the knees and left her to die in the woods" after Klei stripped her of 90% of her character for the sake of dealing with griefers. (Which is a problem in and of itself for a whole list of reasons. but that's for another day). So them choosing to almost completely ignore her defining character trait and focus on the damned bear for her re-fresh is an insult.

I feel you. She's fine now but has so limited uses for the one mechanic her entire personally obsesses with. 

[Atkvin]

13 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

I feel you. She's fine now but has so limited uses for the one mechanic her entire personally obsesses with. 

Off the top of my head, I wonder how the ability to remove fires would work on Willow. It could be tacked onto her lighter to be capable of sucking up surrounding fires for durability, or maybe Bernie for Bernie to be less out-of-place.

Her lighter would now have a way to be replenished infinitely / Bernie would fit into her pyromaniac abilities better and could serve as a handy thermal stone. Fire could be a maybe feasible combat method as Willow could suck up fire on enemies right before they die and drops are burned. When allies, structures and plants are set on fire by red hounds or wildfires, Willow can then save lives, nature and more importantly bases.

Fire needs to be tamable for Willow to play as a pyromaniac.

[MondayNight]

17 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

In DS, Willow would light fires when her sanity was low,...

And that alone, if remained likewise in DST, would've assured a 100% kick/ban rate of Willow players from all pubs, be it open personal servers, community rooms or KLei official ones. Is a no-brainer: who would've want an involuntary (or intentional troll) griefer in base each time Willow gets low sanity (more-so if purposely staying insane for "farming NF")? Even I, as a DST Willow-Walter co-main, kicked one of my Willow-enthusiast friends years ago from my server when said mechanic was still in place in multiplayer after she burned my base for the 3rd time because low-sanity (when we both were beginners at the game). If a character con is so punishable not only on player using it, but for rest of the cast as well, you can be certain no one would want to touch it and would actively discourage anyone from picking such character.

[Captain_Rage]

20 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

In DS, Willow would light fires when her sanity was low, and a trick many people liked to use was lighting items in her inventory on fire to basically give yourself a kill aura. Also her lighter was infinite durability.

 

when DST first launched, They removed her fire immunity, gave the lighter durability, and gave her an entirely new downside that was... Well honestly I don't know how bad it was, I just know that people hated it. And they also gave her Bernie, who distracted shadows.

 

And with her re-fresh, they made her restore more fuel for fire pits and added BERNIE! And fire immunity? Willow's defining trait in the single player game? The forums literally had to riot to get that given back to her.

You are completely right. And, yes, I remember it, since I've been playing exclusively as Willow since DST was new, albeit at that time I didn't play regularly. The downside was that low sanity would freeze her, which was a terrible game mechanic. At the very beginning her perks were identical to the ones in Don't Starve but they got changed fast, together with the removal of the old bell. You could be insane in the summer and virtually overheat and freeze at the same time. For most part I avoid being overly vocal on the forums but rest assured, I joined in with the choir in their chant that Willow should be altered back. Finally (after well over 1-2 years?) she got reworked. The rework turned out nice and Bernie became a welcome addition. The fire immunity was back, minus the drawbacks that didn't work well in the multiplayer version of Don't Starve. To sum it up: Willow is fire immune and can have some fun with setting things on fire and extinguishing them. Less of a pyromaniac but a pyromaniac still. If you haven't seen Willow players reaping success by fighting off hound waves by toggling a torch and a hambat you simply haven't played on the right server. xd

[W0l0l0]

We've kinda made the thread about Willow now... Though whilst we're talking about her, I'd like to say I personally think fire as a whole is the reason she had such a shift in her rework. It's not exactly easy making fire powerful, balanced and realistic all at once.

[Souper]

Klei made another awful design choice?? Even despite there being a plethora of extremely unique and creative ideas proliferating throughout this forum on a daily basis??

[minespatch]

1 hour ago, Souper said:

Klei made another awful design choice?? Even despite there being a plethora of extremely unique and creative ideas proliferating throughout this forum on a daily basis??

[Yuuko]

On 6/28/2021 at 11:51 AM, Roodmas said:

On one hand we have people who complain that there are no downsides anymore, on the other hand Walter has a marginally big downside with his allergy that people want removed.

And ironically its the same people complaining both ways...  "Why don't we have meaningful downsides" vs "OMG I CAN'T DAY 5 SOLO BEE QUEEN" all from the same mouth...

Anyway - I like Walter.  Maybe he's more niche then I thought.  As a kid who grew up with boy scouts, and understand the type of naive courage kids can have, Walter makes perfect sense to me thematically.  He has a bunch of odd perks because Scouts teaches you a bunch of odd things, he doesn't lose sanity from things around him because of his naive nature.  He loses a LOT of sanity when the world hurts him though.

So thematics - has odd things, like telling campfire stories, making a portable tent, wearing a funny hat.

Has mechanical things - slingshot, woby, immunity to sanity auras / punished for taking any damage.

~honestly the bee allergy fits both imo~

If your idea of "doing bee queen" is spamming marble suits, pan flutes, and healing then Walter is NOT the person for you anyway.  Where other people drop a fireplace a tank Deerclops to end the fight as fast as possible, Walter, immune to the massive sanity aura of Deerclops, is free to enjoy kiting him.  Do it perfectly and you're rewarded.  Mess up and you're !@#$!!!! because that is Walter's playstyle.

I would never describe him as "new player friendly."  He is much more suited to a player who has decent game knowledge, likes kiting / damage avoidance strategies, and loves cheese.  If you think taking extra damage from getting hit is a problem Walter was never for you.  He loses sanity when he's hit, it should be clear tanking any amount of damage is should be unacceptable lol

[Guille6785]

47 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

And ironically its the same people complaining both ways...  "Why don't we have meaningful downsides" vs "OMG I CAN'T DAY 5 SOLO BEE QUEEN" all from the same mouth...

I never said anything about downsides tf

47 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

If your idea of "doing bee queen" is spamming marble suits, pan flutes, and healing then Walter is NOT the person for you anyway.  Where other people drop a fireplace a tank Deerclops to end the fight as fast as possible, Walter, immune to the massive sanity aura of Deerclops, is free to enjoy kiting him.  Do it perfectly and you're rewarded.  Mess up and you're !@#$!!!! because that is Walter's playstyle.

I would never describe him as "new player friendly."  He is much more suited to a player who has decent game knowledge, likes kiting / damage avoidance strategies, and loves cheese.  If you think taking extra damage from getting hit is a problem Walter was never for you.  He loses sanity when he's hit, it should be clear tanking any amount of damage is should be unacceptable lol

so you're defending that players should be forced to do the god awful hitless bee queen fight that takes anywhere between 30 minutes to an hour

[Roodmas]

58 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

so you're defending that players should be forced to do the god awful hitless bee queen fight that takes anywhere between 30 minutes to an hour

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

If your idea of "doing bee queen" is spamming marble suits, pan flutes, and healing then Walter is NOT the person for you anyway.

I think it could be a mixture of both. You can use the slingshot for the first phase, and for the other three you can use pan flutes, you can do a hitless fight with enough of them.

And all the while we are assuming that you can't normally kite Bee Queen. You absolutely can, you just need practice and a good amount of speed boost to do it.

[Guille6785]

2 minutes ago, Roodmas said:

And all the while we are assuming that you can't normally kite Bee Queen. You absolutely can, you just need practice and a good amount of speed boost to do it.

I know very well that bee queen can be kited, but if it was actually practical in game I wouldn't be here complaining, hell I would actually be happy about the bee allergy

[goblinball]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

So thematics - has odd things, like telling campfire stories, making a portable tent, wearing a funny hat.

Has mechanical things - slingshot, woby, immunity to sanity auras / punished for taking any damage.

~honestly the bee allergy fits both imo~

I guess from a gameplay perspective, the bee allergy kinda makes sense because walter doesn't like taking damage in general, but i dont see how a bee allergy relates to this list of "thematics" you have given us. Also, the reason why the bee allergy only kinda makes sense is because its only bees for some reason. Why bees? Why does Walter have a more difficult time on bee queen and only bee queen (excluding sanity mechanic) compared to other characters? The only reasons I can think of for Walter having a bee allergy are "it'd be funny" and "walter seems like the type of kid whos allergic to bees" and neither of these are good reasons to add a very strange downside to an already messy character ability-wise.

[Atkvin]

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

Why does Walter have a more difficult time on bee queen and only bee queen (excluding sanity mechanic) compared to other characters?

Another possible gameplay reason might be the Bee Queen crown. I think it's the only hat that loopholes Walter's clothing drawback and gives him both sanity and armor. 

Character-wise there's some amusing irony in the fearless slingshotting wildlife scout being allergic to bees. I still see it more as a flavor mechanic (which perhaps would fit better were the rest of his kit more coherent) but I wonder if it was a deliberate trip-up for experienced players playing as him to rush bosses for drops without sanity loss - with Bee Queen having some of the more useful ones in the game.

[.]

Devs probably hate Walter for some reason. He just has bee downside like he was not hard to play enough.

[Yuuko]

10 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I never said anything about downsides tf

so you're defending that players should be forced to do the god awful hitless bee queen fight that takes anywhere between 30 minutes to an hour

It takes longer to kite any boss than to tank them, and Walter is about that "no damage" run so...  If you're not into it, then don't play Walter?

I don't think Walter is perfect as is, but I'd never ask for the bee allergy to be removed.  Its not the part of the kit I feel really holds him back.  If they want him to be a high risk / reward character they got the risks there, they just need to add some rewards.  Can't make it too easy, but now its not even difficult as much as it just feels awkward, clunky, and slow.  Its very easy to cancel a slingshot attack, the animation is VERY long compared to other attacks and the payoff is substantially lower DPS.  Why focus on the odd, flavorful, and mostly meaningless part of his kit when we could focus on actual problems that should be fixed?  The real question isn't why he can't tank bee queen as easily as other characters, but why no-damage gameplay is so far out of the way when the penalties for failure are there.

Something like not cancelling a slingshot attack when you're riding Woby, or speeding up the animation time so he can more reasonably run and gun would do a lot more for his playability than removing a bee allergy.

9 hours ago, goblinball said:

I guess from a gameplay perspective, the bee allergy kinda makes sense because walter doesn't like taking damage in general, but i dont see how a bee allergy relates to this list of "thematics" you have given us. Also, the reason why the bee allergy only kinda makes sense is because its only bees for some reason. Why bees? Why does Walter have a more difficult time on bee queen and only bee queen (excluding sanity mechanic) compared to other characters? The only reasons I can think of for Walter having a bee allergy are "it'd be funny" and "walter seems like the type of kid whos allergic to bees" and neither of these are good reasons to add a very strange downside to an already messy character ability-wise.

Maybe its not a trope you're familiar with, but the kinda nerdy kid who has allergies is familiar to me.  Why just bees?  Because it was a simple joke imo and didn't warrant a deeper mechanic.  Just "Oh, lets make him allergic to bees b/c nerdy characters have allergies sometimes."  I wouldn't look too deeply into it.  I doubt they really considered how much effect it would have on the bee queen at all.