Can we talk about Walter's bee allergy for a second

[Electroely]

3 minutes ago, Roodmas said:

Playing solo is a self-made challenge in this game. I understand of course that a lot of people don't have a group of friends who are really good at the game.

I don't understand why playing alone is considered a self-made challenge. The game by default puts you in a world alone, it asks you to play alone for your first time so you learn the basics and even on the Steam page it lists both "Single-player" and "Co-op." By all means, playing alone should be about as good of an experience as playing with friends.

[Guille6785]

15 minutes ago, Roodmas said:

I have never attempted that fight as him, is it a lot of grind to just stay away from her and defeat her in ranged combat? I'm genuinely curious.

it requires a crapton of ammo and the fight takes like 4 days, it's really not great in comparison to just tanking with a few marble suits and playing the pan flute occasionally

15 minutes ago, Roodmas said:

Then again, maybe he's supposed to be more of a support character on the sidelines in this fight

27 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I think the downside was made in the context of dst being a multiplayer game I understand that might be frustrating tho

maybe it was meant to be this way, but I can't help but feel like the devs are terrible at balancing this aspect; a "support character" shouldn't be at a massive advantage without their team

I have this problem with warly too; most of his buffs are geared towards helping newer players fight the scary raid bosses but to an experienced player they're unnecessary yet you'll still have to live with his hunger downsides that never go away without many upsides to back it up

wormwood is a good example of a support character who isn't at a disadvantage without their team, in fact he has a lot of really good perks for a solo world and that makes him one of the best designed characters

[QuartzBeam]

41 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

he bone cage dodge getting nerfed from the fuelweaver fight basically accomplished nothing except deny players that were seeking higher risk/higher reward strategies the option of foregoing the lazy explorer from the non-cheese fuelweaver fight;

If I recall correctly, the nerf to bone cage dodging was incidental and came about as a result of the ocean being added and changing how the game handles the "void" or something like that.

[HowlVoid]

I think Walter was meant for when your nieces and nephews come over and keep bugging you to let them play. 

You don't have to worry about the gradual sanity loss and eventually being attacked by shadows. They can go around the map killing birds and rabbits so they feel like they're helping. They can rest in his tent to heal when they are low hp. 

He appeals to little kids as he is a happy-go-lucky kid himself and he has extra inventory so they can pick up every little useless thing they see. Plus, you can keep chester because "Oh hey, I have a little friend just like you!"

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

I think Walter was meant for when your nieces and nephews come over and keep bugging you to let them play. 

You don't have to worry about the gradual sanity loss and eventually being attacked by shadows. They can go around the map killing birds and rabbits so they feel like they're helping. They can rest in his tent to heal when they are low hp. 

He appeals to little kids as he is a happy-go-lucky kid himself and he has extra inventory so they can pick up every little useless thing they see. Plus, you can keep chester because "Oh hey, I have a little friend just like you!"

Then they get hit and crap hits the fan rather quick and walter dies with new players on the other hand wendy would be a much better choice for younger players and newer/casual players as they can engage in combat at their own pace.

Actually to add to this Walter excels at speed and transportation at a cheap cost while also being a mobile sainty and health management for the team. the fact he can get produce food at any point shouldn't be written off either people don't like that he doesn't have some unbalanced mechanic tacked on but that doesn't make him a bad character just a proper one.

 

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

it requires a crapton of ammo and the fight takes like 4 days, it's really not great in comparison to just tanking with a few marble suits and playing the pan flute occasionally

maybe it was meant to be this way, but I can't help but feel like the devs are terrible at balancing this aspect; a "support character" shouldn't be at a massive advantage without their team

I have this problem with warly too; most of his buffs are geared towards helping newer players fight the scary raid bosses but to an experienced player they're unnecessary yet you'll still have to live with his hunger downsides that never go away without many upsides to back it up

wormwood is a good example of a support character who isn't at a disadvantage without their team, in fact he has a lot of really good perks for a solo world and that makes him one of the best designed characters

People often say Walter is geared towards newer players but his downsides make him too hard for new players and even with his slingshot the player needs to know how to get the resources to fuel his slingshot so it's generally a much safer bet for them to play Wendy if they can't handle combat.

For Warly you say most of his buffs are geared towards helping new players fight raid bosses but only 3 of his buffs are combat based. While the meta strat is to only prioritize his combat dishes his light, temperature, and work speed boost dishes never stop being useful and his portable crockpot means he never has to stop at base to cook high high quality dishes.

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Then they get hit and crap hits the fan rather than walter wendy would be a much better choice for younger players.

Idk... If you're a decent enough player Im sure you can outfit them with 24/7 armor and small jerky. They're probably following you around the map anyways so if you're Wendy you can clear any group of mobs while they have fun shooting birds. 

If they're also on big Woby they can just run away from everything and anything. I think that we underestimate how much micromanaging there might be for a 5-7 year old with abi. 

[Scrimbles]

I wonder if Klei will ever do a Walter refresh.

I hope so.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Idk... If you're a decent enough player Im sure you can outfit them with 24/7 armor and small jerky. They're probably following you around the map anyways so if you're Wendy you can clear any group of mobs while they have fun shooting birds. 

If they're also on big Woby they can just run away from everything and anything. I think that we underestimate how much micromanaging there might be for a 5-7 year old with abi. 

What micro management does Abigail require and if your going to completely do everything for them then why would it even matter who they play. Also wobby is a double edged sword he can quickly get them killed due to the kick off feature wendy would be the safest as abigial regardless of mode defend wendy when she's hurt pulling aggro giving plenty of time to run away while also getting food for them. 

[Guille6785]

8 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

I wonder if Klei will ever do a Walter refresh.

I hope so.

I don't actually think walter needs major changes, his sanity mechanics and woby are perfect as is, just his slingshot isn't great and the bee downside is stupid but contrary to popular belief walter is more than just the slingshot

[Mysterious box]

I mean considering what they did to webber I doubt anyone will complain if they just made Walter's slingshot as fast as melee at this point.

[Theukon-dos]

On 6/27/2021 at 9:34 AM, Atkvin said:

That is probably the point. To only make characters more fun and unique.

Somebody else has already said this somewhere else, but these are character refreshes, NOT reworks. They're either polishing clunky mechanics like followers to make gameplay smoother or giving them more unique mechanics to play with - most of which are buffs which don't need to be balanced out by making the character more unfun or negating buffing a weak character in some new way.

While I have no qualms against Wendy, I will note that her refresh is the only one I can think of does literally do away with her drawback in her lower damage, and even makes it a net buff with Abi's petals with teamplay.

Frankly, I'd argue that a character's downside is more important than the upside in the "fun and unique" regard. Sure, playing a character who's nothing but a bum isn't exactly groundbreaking, but if a character doesn't have a substantial downside, then you're basically just playing with a stronger version of Wilson.

Sure, you might do a couple things differently with these characters. Wolfgang you might fight bosses more often due to his damage boost, and WX-78 might spur you on an early ruins run. But at the end of the day, you're going to play these characters almost the exact same way you'd play Wilson.

 

It's downsides like Wormwood's "No healing from food" that forces you to use items you otherwise might not touch, or Warly's "Is a picky eater" that (attempts) to force you to expand your horizons and eat more than meatballs or meaty stew. Hell, while I think he could have been designed better overall, even Walter's unique interactions with HP and Sanity dramatically change the way you play the game. Without fun and unique downsides, character choice ends  up being about as meaningful as a racing game making you choose between "four points into weight and 5 points into traction vs. five points into weight and 4 points into traction".

2 hours ago, Roodmas said:

I personally don't understand why balance is so important to people in this game. Unless you play PvP of course, this is a game of people working together for common goals. In my opinion, a character is well designed if it can help the team in a way no other character can.

I imagine it's from a lot of older players being drawn in by Don't Starve's premise of "an uncompromising survival wilderness game", only to feel alienated by Klei moving away from the reason they bought the game in the first place in favor of making DST lean more towards a survival sandbox game. I do admit, I could be wrong though.

[sudoku]

20 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

I wonder if Klei will ever do a Walter refresh.

I hope so.

You'll only have to wait 3 years for it if they decide to do so.

[Scrimbles]

38 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I don't actually think walter needs major changes, his sanity mechanics and woby are perfect as is, just his slingshot isn't great and the bee downside is stupid but contrary to popular belief walter is more than just the slingshot

He just doesn't feel like a cohesive character, nothing about him makes it feel like Woby is a really important part of his kit, neither does his slingshot.

He doesn't have issues with inventory management, he doesn't have issues moving around the world, he doesn't need ranged combat...

I mean, why give him no sanity aura, then add a ranged weapon?

The closest thing he has is his sanity management, but it feels like getting free sanity for not really doing anything. I do like his sanity on attacked loss though.

[Guille6785]

5 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

He just doesn't feel like a cohesive character, nothing about him makes it feel like Woby is a really important part of his kit

that's the result of thinking the slingshot is his main perk; if you play him with woby as your main priority you'll see that his perks actually make a lot of sense, extra inventory and a massive early game speed boost make him an excellent base builder as he can set up important farms faster than anyone else, and his sanity perks work together to reward players who can avoid significant damage by essentially nullifying sanity loss entirely

keep in mind that woby and sanity are two separate perks; they're not supposed to work together in this case, but complaining about that is the same as complaining that "willow isn't a cohesive character because bernie has nothing to do with the lighter", they're just different upsides on one character

idk why a lot of people have a problem with his random perks like campfire stories, they're just for fun, nobody's holding you at gunpoint to incorporate them into your gameplay

the outlier here is the slingshot, not woby, it's not useful and it never fits into the other aspects of his kit

[Mysterious box]

I'll still stand by if Walter had a unbalance mechanic he wouldn't get as much flack as he does even if nothing else about him changes.

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

What micro management does Abigail require

De-spawning abigail so she can safely heal

Changing her from rattled to pacified

Managing the flower

"Where's your flower?"

"I don't know, I think I left it in my other backpack"

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

and if your going to completely do everything for them then why would it even matter who they play.

Because Im doing everything for them I think its easier with a character who doesn't passively lose sanity and they provide their own healing with the morsels they get. Walter is pretty comfortable outside of boss battles I think . And the sling shot would be fun for them. Of course they could very well choose Wolfgang because he looks strong. 

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Also wobby is a double edged sword he can quickly get them killed due to the kick off feature wendy would be the safest as abigial regardless of mode defend wendy when she's hurt pulling aggro giving plenty of time to run away while also getting food for them. 

Most of the meat she gets is monster meat and if they eat that they could very well die. Also my nephew wouldn't choose a character that isn't a boy so Walter would be good for him.    

[Scrimbles]

37 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

that's the result of thinking the slingshot is his main perk; if you play him with woby as your main priority you'll see that his perks actually make a lot of sense, extra inventory and a massive early game speed boost make him an excellent base builder as he can set up important farms faster than anyone else, and his sanity perks work together to reward players who can avoid significant damage by essentially nullifying sanity loss entirely

keep in mind that woby and sanity are two separate perks; they're not supposed to work together in this case, but complaining about that is the same as complaining that "willow isn't a cohesive character because bernie has nothing to do with the lighter", they're just different upsides on one character

idk why a lot of people have a problem with his random perks like campfire stories, they're just for fun, nobody's holding you at gunpoint to incorporate them into your gameplay

the outlier here is the slingshot, not woby, it's not useful and it never fits into the other aspects of his kit

You could give his perks to most other characters and use the same arguments.

They don't interact with each other or feel core to his character.

He is friendly to animals and has a kind heart, but that doesn't extend to anything past having Woby as a pet, he doesn't even need to feed or take care of Woby, shes just an invulnerable chester.

He's "fearless", which doesn't impact anything else about playstyle, he doesn't suffer from insanity auras, but then suffers from taking damage? He also has a ranged weapon, but debatable has a better time in melee range due to the lack of the insanity aura, two things that are the antithetical to each other.

He doesn't suffer from any restrictions on inventory, he doesn't need to carry around a lot more stuff than others, so why the extra Woby inventory space? You could say this is for slingshot ammo, but you can get a free stack worth of ammo in the slingshot itself, and I feel its rare that you would ever want a large variety (Though, maybe thats due to how bad a lot of his ammo types are).

I'd also argue that a slingshot is more of a tool of a child prankster or delinquent, which is ANYTHING but Walter, he tries to befriend creatures, but also has a childish weapon?

His bee allergy is just a joke perk.

The campfire stories are free sanity regen for no cost, I like the idea of him being able to tell stories, but it seems weird to just get free stats from it.

Dog companion characters have been done before, and much better on the mod Workshop, and I can't help but wonder if Walter was a mixture of left over character concepts and perks, and Klei trying to avoid copying other mods too much, which leaves us with a cluttered mess with on core design or theme.

He is a boyscout, but hardly shows it off much at all. His knowledge doesn't come into play outside of a portable tent.

They could expand on the boyscout aspect, the nature loving wildlife tamer, or the childish delinquent, but instead Klei dipped their toes slightly in each of those puddles, but never stepped into any of them fully.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

De-spawning abigail so she can safely heal

Changing her from rattled to pacified

Managing the flower

"Where's your flower?"

"I don't know, I think I left it in my other backpack"

Because Im doing everything for them I think its easier with a character who doesn't passively lose sanity and they provide their own healing with the morsels they get. Walter is pretty comfortable outside of boss battles I think . And the sling shot would be fun for them. Of course they could very well choose Wolfgang because he looks strong. 

Most of the meat she gets is monster meat and if they eat that they could very well die. Also my nephew wouldn't choose a character that isn't a boy so Walter would be good for him.    

Techincally they don't ever need to change abigial from rattled since she'll attack anything that aggros on wendy in which case no flower management required abigail still heals while summoned

they can also leave the slingshot

if your supporting them you can help them make a sisturn for sanity or just give them a top hat

they can eat butterfly wings or whatever you give them and it's not like Abigail can't kill anything on her own but spiders and even if they slingshot with walter they'd still have the same issue uncooked meat still lowers sanity this has a inconsistency on the amount of help they seem to be getting.

[sudoku]

34 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

Idk why a lot of people have a problem with his random perks like campfire stories, they're just for fun, nobody's holding you at gunpoint to incorporate them into your gameplay

Thats my issue with walter though, his perks should be incorporated into his gameplay... Thats what makes a cohesive character. The random perks are certainly cute, especially when you first play him, but i wouldnt call them fun. The campfire stories, for example, requires you do nothing but watch him which i guess is a nice perk for someone with a small bladder allowing frequent trips to the bathroom while Walter blabs on.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

Thats my issue with walter though, his perks should be incorporated into his gameplay... Thats what makes a cohesive character. The random perks are certainly cute, especially when you first play him, but i wouldnt call them fun. The campfire stories, for example, requires you do nothing but watch him which i guess is a nice perk for someone with a small bladder allowing frequent trips to the bathroom while Walter blabs on.

I mean it's also a good perk when your on a team with a group of people low on sanity but no sanity restoration items I personally don't see the need for perks to connect so long as their helpful.

[sudoku]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean it's also a good perk when your on a team with a group of people low on sanity but no sanity restoration items I personally don't see the need for perks to connect so long as their helpful.

Yeah but its not exaxtly the most engaging perk is what im getting at. Speaking of sanity restoration perks as a whole i find them to be kind of cop out perks, something to give a character when you dont know what else to give them, ie Wendy cisturn, Wes party balloon..

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Yeah but its not exaxtly the most engaging perk is what im getting at. Spesking of sanity restoration perks as a whole i find them to be kind of cop out perks, something to give a character when you dont know what else to give them, ie Wendy cisturn, Wes balloon..

Fair I personally feel like their pretty good by virtue of trading time for sanity atleast so far none of the methods step on the toes of the others.

To add to that I kinda feel kiel should explore on the road perks(perks in the form of services offered while traveling) more often so long as it's not specifically sanity again.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

Walter is a mess, he seems like a variety of randomly picked upsides and downsides plopped into a character with no rhyme or reason.

The Bee allergy stuff is... a joke, I guess? If he were a well designed character he might have some more interesting interactions with bees, but have that extra downside to compensate, but nope, just boring ol' Walter.

• Has a slingshot (unaware  explorer kid perk)
•  Is not afraid of anything, except getting hurt (unaware  explorer kid perk)
  • Does not lose sanity from the dark, being near giants, etc (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Has a new hat that will reduce the sanity loss when getting hit (unaware  explorer kid perk related to his sanity perk) 
• Walter will not gain sanity from clothing items (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Walter can craft a portable camping tent to take with him (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Allergic to bees (it should be to many things so the pun would have sense)
• Fast cooking over a fire (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Reduced hunger drain while sleeping in tents and bedrolls (unaware  explorer kid perk related to his sanity perk)
• Has a friend named Woby that will join him in the constant (lore coincidence which, is true that is paste because potato, combine with his bullets)
• Restores sanity when near enough trees (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Walter can tell stories at the campfire that will cause other survivors to restore some sanity (unaware  explorer kid perk)

[Scrimbles]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

• Has a slingshot (unaware  explorer kid perk)
•  Is not afraid of anything, except getting hurt (unaware  explorer kid perk)
  • Does not lose sanity from the dark, being near giants, etc (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Has a new hat that will reduce the sanity loss when getting hit (unaware  explorer kid perk related to his sanity perk) 
• Walter will not gain sanity from clothing items (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Walter can craft a portable camping tent to take with him (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Allergic to bees (it should be to many things so the pun would have sense)
• Fast cooking over a fire (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Reduced hunger drain while sleeping in tents and bedrolls (unaware  explorer kid perk related to his sanity perk)
• Has a friend named Woby that will join him in the constant (lore coincidence which, is true that is paste because potato, combine with his bullets)
• Restores sanity when near enough trees (unaware  explorer kid perk)
• Walter can tell stories at the campfire that will cause other survivors to restore some sanity (unaware  explorer kid perk)

You... found some loose connections without piecing together anything concrete.

...Okay?

[SuperMeatGoy]

13 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

I wonder if Klei will ever do a Walter refresh.

I hope so.

Bruh 1 month of devtime so we can get EVEN more random perks? maybe even a second crafting tab for him?? 

it's a dream come true