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(RANT) - My problems with recent characters


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I still don't understand why one of Wortox' s downsides is 'not liking food' but he eats like 2x the amount Wilson eats. Imo Wort should just refuse to eat when above a certain percentage of hunger(outside of souls ofc). That way, his souls become more valuable and you can't just unga bunga with jelly beans, honey ham, and his souls. 

 

 

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On the topic of new characters and refreshes, I feel like a lot o fthem don't feel very grounded in theme. Sometimes things feel tacked on, like just giving Willow a better Bernie even though she's supposed to be 'The Firestarter' and is a witty character. It doesn't feel like Willow. (And I do understand that it's hard to work with her because of griefers, but that's an example of refreshes straying from the character's base identity.) Walter especially feels all over the place: he's a boy scout, he loves mysteries, he has a dog that transforms, he has a slingshot. I feel like you should stick to one or two of those and expand not just take from each. It makes the characters feel more memorable and identifiable. Does anybody feel similarly? Or am I just being a scrooge. 

I just hope moving forward with refreshes they're not so much like: "I guess I could see them doing that." And more so: "That makes so much sense!" Like a logical step up of who they are. For me anyways, either way I still do love all the content that's been coming out, but constructive criticism is healhty. 

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1 hour ago, Catteflyterpill said:

On the topic of new characters and refreshes, I feel like a lot o fthem don't feel very grounded in theme. Sometimes things feel tacked on, like just giving Willow a better Bernie even though she's supposed to be 'The Firestarter' and is a witty character. It doesn't feel like Willow. (And I do understand that it's hard to work with her because of griefers, but that's an example of refreshes straying from the character's base identity.) Walter especially feels all over the place: he's a boy scout, he loves mysteries, he has a dog that transforms, he has a slingshot. I feel like you should stick to one or two of those and expand not just take from each. It makes the characters feel more memorable and identifiable. Does anybody feel similarly? Or am I just being a scrooge. 

I just hope moving forward with refreshes they're not so much like: "I guess I could see them doing that." And more so: "That makes so much sense!" Like a logical step up of who they are. For me anyways, either way I still do love all the content that's been coming out, but constructive criticism is healhty. 

Alright.. I guess it’s time for me to point out the obvious, Characters feel “all over the place” as you put it.. BECAUSE they can have skins.

Lets use Wurt as an example shall we? Her default skin she is a Merm.. and therefore building a Merm Army fits with that skin. But she totally has a Goldfish skin and therefore keeping pet fish in her inventory fits with that skin. Lastly she has a Octopus looking skin and therefore seeing swamp tentacles before blindly running into them fits with being a tentacle covered creature.

Walter is the same exact way: he has a Boy Scout Skin, a Detective skin etc...

I figured at some point people would catch on to this, but instead all I continue to see is complaints of how the characters feel like a mish-mash of random workshop mods and never sticks to one central thing and builds off of it.

The TL:DR- If we didn’t have Character skins... they probably wouldn’t feel this way.

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3 hours ago, Superlucas1231 said:

I still don't understand why one of Wortox' s downsides is 'not liking food' but he eats like 2x the amount Wilson eats. Imo Wort should just refuse to eat when above a certain percentage of hunger(outside of souls ofc). That way, his souls become more valuable and you can't just unga bunga with jelly beans, honey ham, and his souls. 

You know what jellybeans are but you think Wortox needs to be nerfed? And how would that nerf even do anything? The only percentage of hunger that matters is 0%, because you're taking damage. Refusing to eat above a certain percentage would do nothing unless that percentage was less than 0% and he couldn't ever eat, since he can just eat a meaty stew or whatever when he's about to starve and then be good.

2 hours ago, Catteflyterpill said:

Walter especially feels all over the place: he's a boy scout, he loves mysteries, he has a dog that transforms, he has a slingshot. I feel like you should stick to one or two of those and expand not just take from each

What perks does Walter have that revolve around "liking mysteries"?

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17 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Downsides are important so long as they exist to balance out a strong upside in return.

Downsides are not to balance out some OP thing.  They are there to enhance the theme of a character.  Wigfrid doesn't have a restricted diet to punish you for having increased damage, its to enhance the theme / feel of playing the method actor completely on her game.  If they were there as a balance metric Wolfgang and Wicker would have big downsides, yet neither does and they are widely considered the most OP and loved characters in the game.  Check out the positive vibes following Wendy's rework!  People love these because they are focused on theme, not punishment.

The problem with Winona is that her downsides are punishing and don't develop her theme.  Winona's upsides are perfectly on theme, and as much as some people gripe about the "portal problem" the reality is it highlights that the problem with Winona is NOT her upsides.  People gladly swap to her to use her upsides.  The questing to ask is why people switch away from her.  What are they trying to avoid...

Ever run from 2 terror beaks while trying to craft a new weapon to fight them off?  Or crafting a new torch while running from a late game hound wave as night falls?  Try doing that on low hunger Winona....  THAT is what people switch away from, and that is why she is such a switch character.  Its not that her upsides are convenient to switch to, its that her downsides are nonsensical and punishiing.  If they made it so you had to be Winona to fuel her gemerators you see Winona more, you'd see her stuff less.

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A core tenet of this post is "character swapping bad". Personally, I love that there's a reason to get on a bunch of different characters and spend time on all of them. In fact, my complaint with some of the character additions and refreshes is that there is _not_ a reason to play them regularly.

As an example, Wurt can change how you think about the swamp, but that mechanic only really matters if you are maining Wurt. Some people prefer to stick to single characters, and Wurt might add a lot for them. That's great! Thankfully, Klei is giving characters both with useful perks for swapping playstyle and also characters with unique game altering mechanics such as Wurt's swamp abilities or Walter's ranged weapons.

I hope that there are more refreshes like Winona's and Warly's which expand the pool of characters for the swapping meta.

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48 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

A core tenet of this post is "character swapping bad". Personally, I love that there's a reason to get on a bunch of different characters and spend time on all of them. In fact, my complaint with some of the character additions and refreshes is that there is _not_ a reason to play them regularly.

The issue in regards to Winona is that unlike Warly and Wurt, her benefits do not have any sort of set limitation or difficulty that is mostly bypassed when the character is actually used. You can bundle clever disguises or Warly food, but you WILL run out eventually, and you'll always face a little extra level of impracticality that is mostly bypassed when actually using the respective characters. 

Winona's only perk has no actual benefit for using it with Winona herself, and while the tape is neat, it's ultimately a slightly more cheap and versatile version of existing items. There should be some aspects to her beyond the ones she has that make you appreciate the character even when you've already set up your catapult arrays. Warly can still cook food on the go, cook faster, and has the second best full belly time in the game, bested only by upgraded Wurt. Wormwood is still immune to wetness sanity drain, can boost his speed, and heal with rot, even when you've already farmed all the crops you'll ever need. And these characters have consumable products that also spoil over time. Compare that to Winona, where the only consumable product can be entirely substituted with sewing kits and boat patches, doesn't spoil, and can stack up to 40, and her other resource literally only needs to be set up once. That leaves her with the crafting perk, which many consider to be a hinderance rather than a benefit, and the free hit from Charlie, which is questionably useful at best. Playing Winona outside of a swap just doesn't feel rewarding, which isn't the case for pretty much any other character, and there's little reason to swap to her more than once.

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19 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

and there's little reason to swap to her more than once.

I agree with everything you said, but I find myself going back to her whenever I'm doing a lot of building. Crafting 1,000 boards, rope, turf, etc, and she's well worth the swap. Admittedly, this isn't a big selling point for many people.

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Just now, Cheggf said:

You know what jellybeans are but you think Wortox needs to be nerfed? And how would that nerf even do anything? The only percentage of hunger that matters is 0%, because you're taking damage. Refusing to eat above a certain percentage would do nothing unless that percentage was less than 0% and he couldn't ever eat, since he can just eat a meaty stew or whatever when he's about to starve and then be good.

 

Just now, Superlucas1231 said:

I still don't understand why one of Wortox' s downsides is 'not liking food' but he eats like 2x the amount Wilson eats. Imo Wort should just refuse to eat when above a certain percentage of hunger(outside of souls ofc). That way, his souls become more valuable and you can't just unga bunga with jelly beans, honey ham, and his souls. 

 

 

It makes more sense for him to only eat human food (which he doesn't like) if he was starving than it is for him to eat 2x the amount of food compared to everyone else, even tho he doesn't food. Also, since food is one of the more better ways to heal, the hunger lock would prevent wort from just ODing on honey hams when he gets hit during a fight or spam eating cati when insane.

 

Just now, chaosmonkey said:

A core tenet of this post is "character swapping bad". Personally, I love that there's a reason to get on a bunch of different characters and spend time on all of them. In fact, my complaint with some of the character additions and refreshes is that there is _not_ a reason to play them regularly.

 

@Masked Koopa already said this, but the problem with Winona is that she may as well just be replaced with a crafting station because her character is so empty and boring. 

Also, my main issue with character swapping is that, Ironically, it feels like it does the opposite of it's goal; encouraging players to try a new playstyle. Warly is the perfect example of this; his downsides makes it harder for him to satisfy all three of his stats, as eating food for hp multiple times gives less and less returns, gated out from cati, mushrooms, and jerky, and generally has less options when it comes to food. So the player would to play around with these downsides....unless they swap to another character before they starve. Character swapping ignores the downsides of most characters and allows the player to have the upside of majority of the characters of the game with the downside of a one. After all, why would i want to play Warly if i can just get the best aspects of his characters and then swap back to Wendy.  

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4 hours ago, Superlucas1231 said:

It makes more sense for him to only eat human food (which he doesn't like) if he was starving than it is for him to eat 2x the amount of food compared to everyone else, even tho he doesn't food.

It would also make more sense for Wilson's beard to make him freeze faster instead of slower because the moisture from his breath freezes on it.

4 hours ago, Superlucas1231 said:

Also, since food is one of the more better ways to heal, the hunger lock would prevent wort from just ODing on honey hams when he gets hit during a fight or spam eating cati when insane.

No it wouldn't. He already has jellybeans & souls so he needs no more healing, but even if he does he can use healing salves & honey poultice. If he wants to spam eat cactus while insane he can  just spam eat rot alongside it to lower his hunger.

I don't know why you want to nerf a weak character but these aren't even really nerfs. You're just making him annoying to play.

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On 5/6/2021 at 6:35 PM, Tuesday Pidgeon said:

Pigs generally hate all monsters, but I'm pretty sure the relationship between pigs and merms is deeper than pigs and merms just disliking eachother because one is a monster.

It seems as though pigs and merms are in a war of sorts, with pig heads in the swamp and merm heads in pig villages. Heck, there's also a set piece where it's just a handful of merms and pigs just fighting.

Perhaps Wurt doesn't want to trade with the PK out of principle due to said war? She seems to hate pigs the most out of all the other monster characters.

Sadly, it isn't just her. The Pig King is the one who doesn't accept her gifts, making a king of snob gesture. D:

On 5/6/2021 at 5:40 PM, Baark0 said:

Her other downside of being a merm is fine, except for the fact that she can't trade with the pig king. I get that it's meant to be a multiplayer game, so you can have other people trade with the king, but if that's the case, why is Webber able to trade with the king? Webber is a spider, which the pigs actively see as threats, unlike merms who they just hate.

Wortox can't trade with the Pig King either. Wurt has the upside of having the merm king, which is a direct substitute (he will give useful items for her, like varied seeds and algae). They both NEED to have the caves as a gold gathering place late game.
Now for Webber, it's simple: This mechanic was added AFTER his release, this is why Pig King accepts his gifts.

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12 hours ago, Superlucas1231 said:

It makes more sense for him to only eat human food (which he doesn't like) if he was starving than it is for him to eat 2x the amount of food compared to everyone else, even tho he doesn't food. Also, since food is one of the more better ways to heal, the hunger lock would prevent wort from just ODing on honey hams when he gets hit during a fight or spam eating cati when insane.

 

@Masked Koopa already said this, but the problem with Winona is that she may as well just be replaced with a crafting station because her character is so empty and boring. 

Also, my main issue with character swapping is that, Ironically, it feels like it does the opposite of it's goal; encouraging players to try a new playstyle. Warly is the perfect example of this; his downsides makes it harder for him to satisfy all three of his stats, as eating food for hp multiple times gives less and less returns, gated out from cati, mushrooms, and jerky, and generally has less options when it comes to food. So the player would to play around with these downsides....unless they swap to another character before they starve. Character swapping ignores the downsides of most characters and allows the player to have the upside of majority of the characters of the game with the downside of a one. After all, why would i want to play Warly if i can just get the best aspects of his characters and then swap back to Wendy.  

The thing with Warly is your not considering alternative methods of healing like medicine or batbat which both work just fine with him his stats are only harder to manage when you inexperienced with him him having a portable kitchen means he can mix up his meals on the go and make the most out of spoil times as well. As for sanity there are plenty of good sanity dishes but he also can just use sanity clothing to keep himself topped off outside of boss fights. Lastly something many people seem to overlook is that Warly has the most perks in the game via his dishes, spices, chef pouch, and portable crock pot which more than make up for his downsides the farming update has lead to him being a much more common pick I see him played more than wicker on pubs atleast.

 

On 5/7/2021 at 2:24 PM, Catteflyterpill said:

On the topic of new characters and refreshes, I feel like a lot o fthem don't feel very grounded in theme. Sometimes things feel tacked on, like just giving Willow a better Bernie even though she's supposed to be 'The Firestarter' and is a witty character. It doesn't feel like Willow. (And I do understand that it's hard to work with her because of griefers, but that's an example of refreshes straying from the character's base identity.) Walter especially feels all over the place: he's a boy scout, he loves mysteries, he has a dog that transforms, he has a slingshot. I feel like you should stick to one or two of those and expand not just take from each. It makes the characters feel more memorable and identifiable. Does anybody feel similarly? Or am I just being a scrooge. 

I just hope moving forward with refreshes they're not so much like: "I guess I could see them doing that." And more so: "That makes so much sense!" Like a logical step up of who they are. For me anyways, either way I still do love all the content that's been coming out, but constructive criticism is healhty. 

I never understand what people mean when they say Walter doesn't seem to have a proper theme his theme is clearly a boy scout and his perks tie onto his skills learned as a scout.

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On 5/9/2021 at 4:34 AM, Mysterious box said:

The thing with Warly is your not considering alternative methods of healing like medicine or batbat which both work just fine with him his stats are only harder to manage when you inexperienced with him him having a portable kitchen means he can mix up his meals on the go and make the most out of spoil times as well. As for sanity there are plenty of good sanity dishes but he also can just use sanity clothing to keep himself topped off outside of boss fights. Lastly something many people seem to overlook is that Warly has the most perks in the game via his dishes, spices, chef pouch, and portable crock pot which more than make up for his downsides the farming update has lead to him being a much more common pick I see him played more than wicker on pubs atleast.

 

I never understand what people mean when they say Walter doesn't seem to have a proper theme his theme is clearly a boy scout and his perks tie onto his skills learned as a scout.

Because a large transforming, rideable dog - a large part of Walter's identity - doesn't really scream boy scout. It feels like two characters mashed into one when they should've focused on one umbrella trait. At least I think.

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4 hours ago, Catteflyterpill said:

Because a large transforming, rideable dog - a large part of Walter's identity - doesn't really scream boy scout. It feels like two characters mashed into one when they should've focused on one umbrella trait. At least I think.

The dog is supposed to represent his honest nature despite being in a dangerous land his top priority is still to return woby to her owner it goes with scouts honor it being useful is a bonus I don't think this would be a issue if he had a very powerful perk people talk about perks not being on theme but look at Wolfgang for example take away his 2x damage modifier and nothing about him screams strongman on the other hand Take away any of Walter's perks and you'd still see his boy scout nature from each of his remaining abilities and downsides if people want him to be stronger that's fine but saying he doesn't fit his theme doesn't make sense when put side by side with the vets.

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On 5/8/2021 at 5:11 PM, Chubbylicious said:

 

Wortox can't trade with the Pig King either. Wurt has the upside of having the merm king, which is a direct substitute (he will give useful items for her, like varied seeds and algae). They both NEED to have the caves as a gold gathering place late game.
Now for Webber, it's simple: This mechanic was added AFTER his release, this is why Pig King accepts his gifts.

Wortox can definitely trade with the pig king! It's a sorta common misconception that he can't, though. That makes Wurt the only character who can't trade with the PK, making her an outlier even among the monster characters.

 

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39 minutes ago, Tuesday Pidgeon said:

 

Wortox can definitely trade with the pig king! It's a sorta common misconception that he can't, though. That makes Wurt the only character who can't trade with the PK, making her an outlier even among the monster characters.

 

That's because pig king is progressive and dosen't discriminate people based on their fur color. 

He can't trade with wurt for political reasons only. 

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20 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

That's because pig king is progressive and dosen't discriminate people based on their fur color. 

He can't trade with wurt for political reasons only. 

he just doesn't like green people smh

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3 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

That's because pig king is progressive and dosen't discriminate people based on their fur color. 

He can't trade with wurt for political reasons only. 

Exactly. He's trying to put an end to the racism, but his "subjects" refuse to obey him. It's why he pays you for killing them, they do not submit to his will and he has no subjects to execute his law so he hires you as a mercenary. Wurt is the one to refuse to trade with him, going so far as to say he's not even a king.

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4 hours ago, Tuesday Pidgeon said:

 

Wortox can definitely trade with the pig king! It's a sorta common misconception that he can't, though. That makes Wurt the only character who can't trade with the PK, making her an outlier even among the monster characters.

 

Keep in mind that merms aren't considered monsters which is why no other innocent mob hates merms it's merely a dispute between two races who don't like each other it's actually a common mistake tho.

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7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Exactly. He's trying to put an end to the racism, but his "subjects" refuse to obey him. It's why he pays you for killing them, they do not submit to his will and he has no subjects to execute his law so he hires you as a mercenary. Wurt is the one to refuse to trade with him, going so far as to say he's not even a king.

then why does wurt try to enact the trade but pk does a nuh uh gesture

this pk propaganda will never effect me 

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On 5/8/2021 at 3:11 PM, Chubbylicious said:

Wortox can't trade with the Pig King either. Wurt has the upside of having the merm king, which is a direct substitute (he will give useful items for her, like varied seeds and algae). They both NEED to have the caves as a gold gathering place late game.
Now for Webber, it's simple: This mechanic was added AFTER his release, this is why Pig King accepts his gifts.

Wortox can trade with the pig king, I just tested it, and he trades just fine.

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22 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

The dog is supposed to represent his honest nature despite being in a dangerous land his top priority is still to return woby to her owner it goes with scouts honor it being useful is a bonus I don't think this would be a issue if he had a very powerful perk people talk about perks not being on theme but look at Wolfgang for example take away his 2x damage modifier and nothing about him screams strongman on the other hand Take away any of Walter's perks and you'd still see his boy scout nature from each of his remaining abilities and downsides if people want him to be stronger that's fine but saying he doesn't fit his theme doesn't make sense when put side by side with the vets.

I disagree? I mean saying that a dog represents honest nature feels like a stretch to me. You could give Webber a magnifying glass because of his 'curious nature', and while sure I guess it could make sense, it doesn't feel like the character. It feels strange and out of place. Wolfgang's strength and speed from eating make sense from a character and gameplay perspective, food is a way of balancing it that's fitting and strength and speed go right with the strongman. If you want to represent honest nature, then I feel like that's best done through interaction quotes w/ the environment that give insight to the character's personality not necessarily a dog perk that feels out of place for a boy scout character. That's just my take, though.

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4 hours ago, Catteflyterpill said:

I disagree? I mean saying that a dog represents honest nature feels like a stretch to me. You could give Webber a magnifying glass because of his 'curious nature', and while sure I guess it could make sense, it doesn't feel like the character. It feels strange and out of place. Wolfgang's strength and speed from eating make sense from a character and gameplay perspective, food is a way of balancing it that's fitting and strength and speed go right with the strongman. If you want to represent honest nature, then I feel like that's best done through interaction quotes w/ the environment that give insight to the character's personality not necessarily a dog perk that feels out of place for a boy scout character. That's just my take, though.

Nothing about a dog screams “boyscout” i mean yeah, but nothing about being a firestarter screams teddy bear, scientist doesnt scream beard, being a plant doesnt scream not healing with food. Its a gameplay choice, and its a fun one. Woby gives every walter the extra storage they need for ammo ammo they, and give them a non-stacking speed multiplier for earlygame. And being nonstacking it allows it to be as powerful as they want and still be completely fair and balanced. People trashtalk nonstackint speed modifiers but unless you’re wearing a walking cane, a magi, and on a road, you’ll be at best matching the speed of woby. Hell magi and walking together is still slower. but he cant be that fast early game and have it stack or he’d be stupid fast and no boss would catch him. If you want a better version you can get a riding beefalo and use your slingshot still

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