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The reincarnation of the ancient queen in Charlie doesn't make much sense.


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The theory that I notice is becoming prevalent, the one that sees in Charlie the reincarnation of the ancient queen of the arthropod people.
Probably in Klei's mind Charlie is indeed the reincarnation of the ancient queen; the pose that Charlie takes in the trailer is identical to that of the queen in the ancient frescoes of the Metheus puzzle.
But the question is: why? Why Charlie?
It is an aline creature from another world from the point of view of ancient arthropods; She arrived in the Constant apparently by chance at an indefinite time after their disappearance.
Why was the ancient queen not reincarnated earlier in one of the countless creatures of the Constant? Oddly convenient that ancient queen found in Charlie the ideal host.
Also: with all the occult technology of the ancients, is it possible that the ancient queen could not create a suitable homunculus to house her? Heck, canonically the survivors manage to create a body satisfactory enough to bring the ancient fuelweaver back into a pseudo-life condition and I must think that the ancient queen, theoretically the custodian of much of the knowledge of her people, could not obtain a more prodigious result?
In short, really, with all these possible alternatives, why Charlie? Meh.

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She wanted A body that could STRUT HER STUFF BOOOOOOYYYYYY.

In all seriousness. There are so many plot holes it would make the movie "Holes" lower its head in shame. 

Personally, I dont think it would be bad for Klei to just come out and tell us what stuff is recalled and what is not.  

Is the story in Don't starve and the story in dst one in the same?

How far back can we actually go to collect evidence? When Maxwell was on the throne is everything he said cannon?

Why did Wilson build a portal when everyone else was taken just like that? 

Why were terror beaks hunting Willow?and why where they seemingly trying to kill her? Isn't the whole point to bring them to the constant? 

Is everything that happened in the gorge and forge still cannon or not?

I think letting your fans makes theories of false/ untrue i formation is bad faith. If its to make the end seems more of a twist, that is really unfair.

When everyone guessed who the main villain was in WandaVision before the reveal, the directors didn't change the script to keep in a twist in for the sake of their being a surprise. They kept the script and it was still a great reveal. 

I could be wrong and Klei has made 0 errors in continuity since the games conception (press f for doubt), in which case I apologize. 

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I always kinda saw Charlie as the organic avatar that was deemed suitable for the host. Charlie, not wanting to become the passenger of her own body, fought back until they merged together creating something sinister while also being Charlie.

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I feel like Charlie was deemed a suitable host for the queen, because from the creatures that canonically existed before Maxwell, the best options she had were probably Merms. And regarding the "build a homunculus" thing, pretty much all of the ancient people were turned into non-corporeal beings, so I imagine they would have a hard time building something. 

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Forge and Gorge definitely happened, as characters comment on tree decorations themed after these items and mention either the thing or a hazy memory is trying to reach them. 

Keeping things secret is a very important part of story telling. The Golden rule of writing is to never reveal everything. We already got an explanation for a lot of stuff, and just like with the white light torch, there is probably more that we technically have access to but don't really understand. 

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4 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

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I understand your hunger for answers, but this never ceasing hunger is what actually makes the lore interesting. Never knowing the full story, or rather just getting little snippets of indicators at something big happening in the background.

Learning the canonical truth would give you one fleeting moment of satisfaction, and then what? It's over at that point, the mystique of the world is gone, the story is over.

Also at this point, if they give us the answers, they are bound to be much more disappointing than the fan theories.

Anyway, Charlie. I like the idea of her being the host of the ancient queen, although why the queen acts so evil when she was supposed to be a heroic character in the past is beyond me. I'm also not sure why she decided to kidnap Winona, if she wants to use Charlie as a host, surely having someone around who represents her human side would be troublesome.

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8 hours ago, Roodmas said:

I understand your hunger for answers, but this never ceasing hunger is what actually makes the lore interesting. Never knowing the full story, or rather just getting little snippets of indicators at something big happening in the background.

I'm not talking about being spoon fed the truth. I like coming up with theories and the like. I'm talking about the lore as a whole being a mess.

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Learning the canonical truth would give you one fleeting moment of satisfaction, and then what? It's over at that point, the mystique of the world is gone, the story is over.

Not at all. People reread their favorite stories all the time. There is no such thing as a fleeting satisfaction when it comes to a good story.

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Also at this point, if they give us the answers, they are bound to be much more disappointing than the fan theories.

I don't want the answer, i think you misunderstood me. I want the irrelevant/wrong information separated from the actual lore.

 

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I think you answer your own questions.

We the survivors are the ones responsible for bringing back the supposed 'Ancient King' as the Fuelweaver. It shouldn't be so crazy to believe Maxwell/Charlie may have accidentally did the same with the supposed 'Ancient Queen' when they first arrived?

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16 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I think you answer your own questions.

We the survivors are the ones responsible for bringing back the supposed 'Ancient King' as the Fuelweaver. It shouldn't be so crazy to believe Maxwell/Charlie may have accidentally did the same with the supposed 'Ancient Queen' when they first arrived?

Wouldn't that be a very big assumption given there is no evidence supporting this? Maxwell says "Charlie? Its me!" Almost as if they have never met. This more or less implies Charlie was overtaken probably right after arriving.

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7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wouldn't that be a very big assumption given there is no evidence supporting this? Maxwell says "Charlie? Its me!" Almost as if they have never met. This more or less implies Charlie was overtaken probably right after arriving.

Naturally we have no idea how it actually happened. All I'm saying is it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to have it make sense. There's no doubt that Charlie possess knowledge far beyond Maxwell's own—especially in regards to the Ancients' Lunar Origins. Maybe her shadow half really is just some nameless shadow that has granted her knowledge, but things add up much easier if we attribute the shadow as the Torch Bearer. Naturally the shadowified Ancients would fall under command of one of their previous leaders. Naturally Charlie would gain a firm understanding of Lunar Magic. Etc etc.

I absolutely disagree with your interpterion of the quote here though. This falls under a very general umbrella of any classic " monster takes over" trope. The way I see it, it's less 'they're meeting for the first time' and more "Get a grip. Why are you trying to kill me? You know me." Doesn't, in any way, have to mean they're meeting for the first time. Just that Maxwell is trying to 'reach' her humanity.

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55 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

We the survivors are the ones responsible for bringing back the supposed 'Ancient King' as the Fuelweaver. It shouldn't be so crazy to believe Maxwell/Charlie may have accidentally did the same with the supposed 'Ancient Queen' when they first arrived?

Food for thought: Could the "final act" short with Maxwell and Charlie be the two unintentionally doing a ritual that mirrored what happened to the Thulian ancients? That the royalty did a similar performance and their pride caused a similar downfall and earthquake?

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14 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Food for thought: Could the "final act" short with Maxwell and Charlie be the two unintentionally doing a ritual that mirrored what happened to the Thulian ancients? That the royalty did a similar performance and their pride caused a similar downfall and earthquake?

Maybe, but probably not to the same extent since our world/civilization is still standing after the fact.

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Why did they even need the survivors for before the introduction of Fuelweaver? Isn't this a major plot hole? In the single player game to Dst I mean. 

Wilson frees Maxwell but... This didn't even seem important in the grand scheme of things. Maxwell being free didn't seem to serve much purpose. Not even in finding the Archives as he didn't even know they were there. It all seems forced to try and bridge the two games. Wes, Wolfgang and Wendy pop out with no explanation even though we see Wes get pulled in by shadow hands. 

To me the story seems to have had a major shift and a lot of things tossed out the window. However we aren't told what is tossed out which just makes things confusing.

 

1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

I think you answer your own questions.

We the survivors are the ones responsible for bringing back the supposed 'Ancient King' as the Fuelweaver. It shouldn't be so crazy to believe Maxwell/Charlie may have accidentally did the same with the supposed 'Ancient Queen' when they first arrived?

 

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6 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Why did they even need the survivors for before the introduction of Fuelweaver? Isn't this a major plot hole? In the single player game to Dst I mean. 

Wilson frees Maxwell but... This didn't even seem important in the grand scheme of things. Maxwell being free didn't seem to serve much purpose. Not even in finding the Archives as he didn't even know they were there. It all seems forced to try and bridge the two games. Wes, Wolfgang and Wendy pop out with no explanation even though we see Wes get pulled in by shadow hands. 

To me the story seems to have had a major shift and a lot of things tossed out the window. However we aren't told what is tossed out which just makes things confusing.

It's a good question. There may be more to it, or maybe getting Maxwell off the throne was the only point. After all, dragging other people into the Constant was Maxwell's doing. Maxwell wants off the throne and the only way to do so is to be replaced. It's relatively self-contained in that sense. Things just get that much more complicated once Charlie takes the reins.

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31 minutes ago, minespatch said:

I'd like context of the "dust, void, and THEM" catchphrase.

Yeah it's rather outdated.

'So yeah, when I got here there was only dust, void and Them.

...oh and the ruins of an ancient civilization and basically the whole world that they lived in. But apart from that there was only void.'

Unless of course Maxwell was talking strictly about the throne room.

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41 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

It's a good question. There may be more to it, or maybe getting Maxwell off the throne was the only point.

When you free Maxwell the game expresses that his captors would not be happy. There is a bit of a contradiction between "Them" wanting him on the throne but also "Them" not quite being there in DST. The game makes a big deal about how "They" are arriving but single player makes it sounds like they are already there. 

The term is thrown a around far too much half hazardly. Now we have Wormwood using Them for a moon drop but the T is not capital so there is wild speculation. Then I hear that a dev confirmed that fuelweaver is male. It isn't good lore keeping in my opinion for them to be so vague and mislead some times and then drop huge confirmations out of nowhere other times.

 

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After all, dragging other people into the Constant was Maxwell's doing. Maxwell wants off the throne

This never made sense to me, haha. Maybe Im too dumb.

Why did Maxwell want off the throne? The throne made him almost omnipotent in a way and gave him tremendous power. Yet he makes every attempt possible to leave the constant, so why lose the one advantage he had? He wanted off so badly why construct adventure mode? Why not just lead the directly to the throne? There seems to be a conflict of interest between Maxwell and those who placed him on the throne.

Then along comes Charlie and that conflict is completely gone. Suddenly "They" are nowhere to be seen and apparently haven't even arrived/ been freed yet. Charlie is completely free to do everything and anything she wants. 

The game screams to me that Charlie is completely different from the one who put Maxwell on the throne. And if this is the case why be so displeased when Maxwell is taken off? Why not give the throne to Charlie since the beginning? If they wanted Charlie on the throne then why protect it?  The one watching over Maxwell just vanish into thin air.

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and the only way to do so is to be replaced. It's relatively self-contained in that sense. Things just get that much more complicated once Charlie takes the reins.

Once Charlie takes control the story seems far less convoluted and messy. Everything falls in place piece by piece. I don't know... Just every time I try to make sense of the bridge between dst and ds its... Confusing.

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Maxwell looked miserable on the throne. It probably demanded too much of his body and influenced too much on his thoughts. It's only natural he wanted off.

14 hours ago, Aquaticbutter7 said:

I feel like Charlie was deemed a suitable host for the queen, because from the creatures that canonically existed before Maxwell, the best options she had were probably Merms. And regarding the "build a homunculus" thing, pretty much all of the ancient people were turned into non-corporeal beings, so I imagine they would have a hard time building something. 

This. And because she actually sitted on the throne, so she could be tested and seen as fit.
One last thing: I think most people on this forum got "Them"s identity wrong
 

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3 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

When you free Maxwell the game expresses that his captors would not be happy. There is a bit of a contradiction between "Them" wanting him on the throne but also "Them" not quite being there in DST. The game makes a big deal about how "They" are arriving but single player makes it sounds like they are already there. 

I always understood that They and Them are different beings

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4 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Why did Maxwell want off the throne? The throne made him almost omnipotent in a way and gave him tremendous power. Yet he makes every attempt possible to leave the constant, so why lose the one advantage he had? He wanted off so badly why construct adventure mode? Why not just lead the directly to the throne? There seems to be a conflict of interest between Maxwell and those who placed him on the throne.

because he was tired of hearing that damn speaker play that music

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47 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

I always understood that They and Them are different beings

Them is used in the single player game too. Im saying they because english grammar. 

18 minutes ago, Dextops said:

because he was tired of hearing that damn speaker play that music

Would of been funny if Charlie had turned it back on when she took the throne. 

The gramaphone thing is also weird. Some characters got taken while its playing but Wes got taken outside in an alley idk. The guy that was supposed to be taken had one in his house but... He was outside... Weird. 

We never get an explanation as to who made them. We figure it was Wagstaff but there is one in the throne room but when we play as Wagstaff he acts like hes never been there. To me the music thing was just comedic relief idk. 

2 hours ago, Behan said:

Maxwell looked miserable on the throne. It probably demanded too much of his body and influenced too much on his thoughts. It's only natural he wanted off.

Maxwell mentions staying dapper to fend "Them" off. Pretty sure he looks miserable because he has been confined there for so long not because its draining him. The whole time he talks to the player he has his full faculties and does not seem mentally impaired.

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This. And because she actually sitted on the throne, so she could be tested and seen as fit.

I didnt get that from the video. Seemed like the throne accepted her with no resistance from the get go. Literally transforms it before she even sits on it. 

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One last thing: I think most people on this forum got "Them"s identity wrong
 

Who are they then?

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7 hours ago, Zeklo said:

After all, dragging other people into the Constant was Maxwell's doing. Maxwell wants off the throne and the only way to do so is to be replaced. It's relatively self-contained in that sense. Things just get that much more complicated once Charlie takes the reins.

Doesn't Maxwell's Compendium description kind of contradict the idea that he meant for someone to release him from the throne?

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Then again, he may have just gone to desperate measures bc he had been suffering for so long; and later regretted being beholden to Wilson.

6 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Yeah it's rather outdated.

'So yeah, when I got here there was only dust, void and Them.

...oh and the ruins of an ancient civilization and basically the whole world that they lived in. But apart from that there was only void.'

Unless of course Maxwell was talking strictly about the throne room.

That's possible. Although one could refer to the ruins of a civilization as dust, possibly.  

2 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

We never get an explanation as to who made them. We figure it was Wagstaff but there is one in the throne room but when we play as Wagstaff he acts like hes never been there. To me the music thing was just comedic relief idk. 

But Wagstaff obviously knew about the throne room already. I've briefly mentioned this before, but I think Wagstaff knew about the Constant even before Maxwell was pulled in (maybe Maxwell either told him about it or he somehow figured out about the Codex Umbra), and I think Wagstaff managed to find a way to link the two worlds through his inventions (hence why even from the very beginning (like in Wigfrid's short), people have been getting kidnapped through the use of the gramaphone and radio).

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11 minutes ago, fierysage1 said:

 

But Wagstaff obviously knew about the throne room already. I've briefly mentioned this before, but I think Wagstaff knew about the Constant even before Maxwell was pulled in (maybe Maxwell either told him about it or he somehow figured out about the Codex Umbra), and I think Wagstaff managed to find a way to link the two worlds through his inventions (hence why even from the very beginning (like in Wigfrid's short), people have been getting kidnapped through the use of the gramaphone and radio).

Just play as him. Everything he inspects is new to him. This includes when you inspect nightmare fuel crafts. He also get pulled in when Charlie is already there and Charlie also pulls in Winona.

I don't think there is a possibility he knew of the constant. 

Edit: Not that he didnt know of the constant more like his knowledge was limited. I think he got forbidden knowledge like Wilson did 

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I have other question, possibly de-railing topic: what if Winona succesed and dragged Charlie-MonsterCharlie into her world?

Would "real world" become dangerouns in darkness? Would we meet big genocide? Nightmare Beaks already were hunting for Willow, so I think Charlie would stay as monster. What if actually kidnapping Winona was best choice as Charlie-MonsterCharlie could do, as Winona would try again and again reach her... 

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