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The reincarnation of the ancient queen in Charlie doesn't make much sense.


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4 hours ago, Notecja said:

I have other question, possibly de-railing topic: what if Winona succesed and dragged Charlie-MonsterCharlie into her world?

Would "real world" become dangerouns in darkness? Would we meet big genocide? Nightmare Beaks already were hunting for Willow, so I think Charlie would stay as monster. What if actually kidnapping Winona was best choice as Charlie-MonsterCharlie could do, as Winona would try again and again reach her... 

If what we have seen happen to Wilson and Maxwell is canon (and it really should be) Charlie is imprisoned to the throne in some way: I don't think Winona, with the sheer strength of her arms, would have been able to sever this "bond" supernatural that seems far beyond human limits. That said; if she really managed to sever it, there is a chance that Charlie would come to his senses or, just like Maxwell, she would die in a few moments and reducing she in bone, mush and dust.
I prefer the second hypothesis; but we're just speculating.

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1 minute ago, Pop Guy said:

If what we have seen happen to Wilson and Maxwell is canon (and it really should be) Charlie is imprisoned to the throne in some way: I don't think Winona, with the sheer strength of her arms, would have been able to sever this "bond" supernatural that seems far beyond human limits. That said; if she really managed to sever it, there is a chance that Charlie would come to his senses or, just like Maxwell, she would die in a few moments and reducing she in bone, mush and dust.
I prefer the second hypothesis; but we're just speculating.

In that short Charlie was before being a queen. So she didnt had to be bounded yet.

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6 minutes ago, Notecja said:

In that short Charlie was before being a queen. So she didnt had to be bounded yet.

Charlie was already possessed, she already had enough power to kidnap people in our world; as far as we know she was already on the throne.

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3 minutes ago, Pop Guy said:

If what we have seen happen to Wilson and Maxwell is canon (and it really should be) Charlie is imprisoned to the throne in some way: I don't think Winona, with the sheer strength of her arms, would have been able to sever this "bond" supernatural that seems far beyond human limits. That said; if she really managed to sever it, there is a chance that Charlie would come to his senses or, just like Maxwell, she would die in a few moments and reducing she in bone, mush and dust.
I prefer the second hypothesis; but we're just speculating.

I don´t really think this applies to Charlie.She is the rightful ruler of the Constant(cause Metheus resides in her).Maxwell and Wilson were both usurpers,unfit to rule.I believe the throne is "alive" in some ways.If the nightmare throne is the same throne Ancient King sat upon,then why wasn´t he bound to it?Because he was the rightful owner.Same goes with Charlie/Metheus because she is next in line,thus the Throne accepting her,rather than imprisoning her.Thats why she can wander around,change the look of the Throne, and do things Maxwell couldn´t.She simply isn´t a mere mortal anymore.

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3 minutes ago, WebberMain said:

I don´t really think this applies to Charlie.She is the rightful ruler of the Constant(cause Metheus resides in her).Maxwell and Wilson were both usurpers,unfit to rule.I believe the throne is "alive" in some ways.If the nightmare throne is the same throne Ancient King sat upon,then why wasn´t he bound to it?Because he was the rightful owner.Same goes with Charlie/Metheus because she is next in line,thus the Throne accepting her,rather than imprisoning her.Thats why she can wander around,change the look of the Throne, and do things Maxwell couldn´t.She simply isn´t a mere mortal anymore.

Slowly slowly; here speculation runs wild.
Let's talk about what we know concretely: There is a throne somewhere in the Constant (we don't know where) and whoever sits on it becomes a kind of god-king. Point. We do not even know if it is actually the throne that gives powers: Maxwell claimed that it was "They" who taught him what he knew, who gave him the occult knowledge to manipulate reality. Wilson appears to have drawn no supernatural power from the throne. And Charlie had the power to be omnipresent long before he took Maxwell's place. Paradoxically, as far as we know, sitting on the throne is only a symbolic act and in and of itself does not make the human something "beyond".
Furthermore, to claim that the throne is "alive" or recognizes alleged "legitimate" owners seems to me really hasty and misleading: nothing suggests this explicitly.

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13 minutes ago, Pop Guy said:

Slowly slowly; here speculation runs wild.
Let's talk about what we know concretely: There is a throne somewhere in the Constant (we don't know where) and whoever sits on it becomes a kind of god-king. Point. We do not even know if it is actually the throne that gives powers: Maxwell claimed that it was "They" who taught him what he knew, who gave him the occult knowledge to manipulate reality. Wilson appears to have drawn no supernatural power from the throne. And Charlie had the power to be omnipresent long before he took Maxwell's place. Paradoxically, as far as we know, sitting on the throne is only a symbolic act and in and of itself does not make the human something "beyond".
Furthermore, to claim that the throne is "alive" or recognizes alleged "legitimate" owners seems to me really hasty and misleading: nothing suggests this explicitly.

We never see Charlie getting bound,so thats why i assume she is "legitimate".We don´t know if the throne provides some powers,but we certainly know it changes the person on the throne in some unknown way(vignette:" Maxwell's extended reign on the Nightmare Throne altered him in ways that are not yet fully understood.He continues to rely heavily on his tome, the Codex Umbra, as a result." and his unimplemented quote:"It will change you,like it did me")As to the thrones mind,Maxwel says:"The throne won´t allow that,i tried" when you try to hurt him.Seems pretty explicitly stated to me.

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18 minutes ago, WebberMain said:

We never see Charlie getting bound,so thats why i assume she is "legitimate".We don´t know if the throne provides some powers,but we certainly know it changes the person on the throne in some unknown way(vignette:" Maxwell's extended reign on the Nightmare Throne altered him in ways that are not yet fully understood.He continues to rely heavily on his tome, the Codex Umbra, as a result." and his unimplemented quote:"It will change you,like it did me")As to the thrones mind,Maxwel says:"The throne won´t allow that,i tried" when you try to hurt him.Seems pretty explicitly stated to me.

I did not remember that Maxwell specifically referred to the throne in that dialogue. I thought he was referring to "they" will not allow it.
In fact it is a valid clue.
However, I am still perplexed: why should the throne have a will of its own? There are no other sentient artifacts in the ruins of the ancients; the throne would be unique in this sense. It may very well be so; but I honestly think that even Klei doesn't have a clear idea of what exactly this phantom throne is. Of course, if at least one cartoon were shown where Charlie talks with the throne we would finally have the definitive proof that it is a real sentient being.

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2 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

I did not remember that Maxwell specifically referred to the throne in that dialogue. I thought he was referring to "they" will not allow it.
In fact it is a valid clue.
However, I am still perplexed: why should the throne have a will of its own? There are no other sentient artifacts in the ruins of the ancients; the throne would be unique in this sense. It may very well be so; but I honestly think that even Klei doesn't have a clear idea of what exactly this phantom throne is. Of course, if at least one cartoon were shown where Charlie talks with the throne we would finally have the definitive proof that it is a real sentient being.

Not really fully sentient,but something like a robot which runs a protocol when certain conditions are met.Key input=imprison the character.Something like a "fingerprint scanner"(recognizes the rightful owners soul imprint or something like that)

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Ok, regarding Winona and Charlie:

What is interesting is that in Winona's short, Charlie's appearance is that before she becomes the queen, yes? Makes sense, Wilson hasn't even entered the Constant and freed Maxwell from the throne yet.

However, Winona doesn't arrive in the Constant until after Charlie becomes the queen of the Constant, as suggested by the "What Lies Beyond?" short. Her silhouette is in the Ancient Gateway, and Charlie picks a rose (if my memory serves me right, roses did not naturally occur in the Constant before her reign, yes?).

And I think Charlie's situation is like.... she's not bound to the nightmare throne by the throne itself. I think it's just her shadow/Them/ancient side has taken over, and maybe the throne recognizes that, and thus knows that the "host" or the new ruler of the Constant will gladly take her position and use it.

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16 minutes ago, fierysage1 said:

Ok, regarding Winona and Charlie:

What is interesting is that in Winona's short, Charlie's appearance is that before she becomes the queen, yes? Makes sense, Wilson hasn't even entered the Constant and freed Maxwell from the throne yet.

However, Winona doesn't arrive in the Constant until after Charlie becomes the queen of the Constant, as suggested by the "What Lies Beyond?" short. Her silhouette is in the Ancient Gateway, and Charlie picks a rose (if my memory serves me right, roses did not naturally occur in the Constant before her reign, yes?).

And I think Charlie's situation is like.... she's not bound to the nightmare throne by the throne itself. I think it's just her shadow/Them/ancient side has taken over, and maybe the throne recognizes that, and thus knows that the "host" or the new ruler of the Constant will gladly take her position and use it.

Winona cannot have entered before Wilson, as she comes later. As well as Wagstaff, which manifests itself to survivors even later. Of course, we know that time in the Constant flows differently ... but it seems absurd that Winona could arrive later despite having entered first: what exactly happened while "traveling" in the Constant? When it was said that Wilson was the last to enter the Constant, Winona had not yet even been imagined by Klei, and Wagstaff was still an evanescent name of Maxwell's backstory. It all makes much more sense if we place the events chronologically in linear order and place the entry of Wagstaff and Winona after Wilson's (and therefore of all DS events).

Edit: if in a story we seriously begin to contemplate the violation of causality, it becomes such a crap that even I feel don't like continuing to make theories and speculations.

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5 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

Winona cannot have entered before Wilson, as she comes later. As well as Wagstaff, which manifests itself to survivors even later. Of course, we know that time in the Constant flows differently ... but it seems absurd that Winona could arrive later despite having entered first: what exactly happened while "traveling" in the Constant? When it was said that Wilson was the last to enter the Constant, Winona had not yet even been imagined by Klei, and Wagstaff was still an evanescent name of Maxwell's backstory. It all makes much more sense if we place the events chronologically in linear order and place the entry of Wagstaff and Winona after Wilson's (and therefore of all DS events).

I agree that, at least Winona, arrived after the events of DS, but I still am pretty sure that she and Wagstaff were taken into the portal leading to the Constant (1919) before Wilson was (1921). 

And yes, it does seem absurd, but that doesn't rule it out as a possibility, especially when there are multiple things pointing to said possibility.

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Currently all the rework animatics are lining up with the very very old timeline that was originally posted—which has always placed Wilson as the last survivor to get pulled in. Makes sense since stuff only really starts moving due to him (ie. freeing Max from the throne).

The real question is if the sneak-peak of Winona in the What Lies Beyond trailer is canon or just that—a sneak-peak.

I'm leaning towards it just being a teaser for her release, because she just kind of arrived in the Constant and it's no big deal. It's never really brought up at all. She's just there. Either another big plot-point got washed under the rug or maybe she was just in one of the separate 'worlds' and came through the Jury-Rigged Portal like everyone else.

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5 hours ago, fierysage1 said:

[...]

 

5 hours ago, Zeklo said:

[...]

 

So, let's recap: Wilson enters the Constant after Wagstaff and Winona ... therefore Wagstaff and Winona are kidnapped during Maxwell's reign ... yet Winona is kidnapped by Charlie ... so Maxwell, during his reign, allowed Charlie to do what she wanted, including kidnap other people in his place ... too bad Maxwell himself took it as an affront that Wes was kidnapped "by mistake" and cruelly punished him ... not exactly a lenient ruler, they tell me.
Then, before Winona is reunited with the others, Wilson arrives, reaches the throne, frees Maxwell, becomes king, is deposed by Winona, reunites with Maxwell, and the two build a new portal. Ok.
Wagstaff in the meantime continues to play to be the hologram, no one knows how or why, since in theory he too has been kidnapped. All right.
I don't know, tell me if I've done something wrong.

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I think Next  of kin is before What Lies Beyond. I get the feeling Maxwell was on the throne during the Kin short. What Lies Beyond is Charlie finally trying to get the areas that Winona and Wilson are in  to the same area.

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On 5/1/2021 at 2:20 PM, Roodmas said:

I understand your hunger for answers, but this never ceasing hunger is what actually makes the lore interesting. Never knowing the full story, or rather just getting little snippets of indicators at something big happening in the background.

Learning the canonical truth would give you one fleeting moment of satisfaction, and then what? It's over at that point, the mystique of the world is gone, the story is over.

Also at this point, if they give us the answers, they are bound to be much more disappointing than the fan theories.

Anyway, Charlie. I like the idea of her being the host of the ancient queen, although why the queen acts so evil when she was supposed to be a heroic character in the past is beyond me. I'm also not sure why she decided to kidnap Winona, if she wants to use Charlie as a host, surely having someone around who represents her human side would be troublesome.

I don't agree, many people are kind of tired of waiting for more lore and more answers. Being mysterious is when you "give 7 out of 10 pieces" but developers literally give "1 piece out of 10". This is just ridiculous, there is no information at all, you have to deduce and just imagine some "ties" in the lore.

I would definitely prefer to know everything once and for all so that I understand what is going on. Maybe it does motivate you to not know everything but it surely does not me or my friends. It is like saying that "I prefer not to know what 2+2 is because I want to be motivated to learn math".

I don't mean that they have to tell everything at once but giving a sizeable portion of information that is actually useful every single update would definitely be nice instead of just showing you a new creature and let you think what it is, how it got here, what does that creature have in common with others and maybe it is connection to the Charlie or any other character.

Or maybe it is just me and my friends, sorry for my rant 

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