Some information & feedback about the Wormwood & fertilizer changes

[Viktor234]

I would like to talk a bit about some Wormwood based changes in the last update and my feelings about them:

Restored health from Manure & Compost:

• Manure: 2 health
• Guano: 3 health
• Rot: 4 health over time
• Rotten Egg: 6 health over time
• Glommer's Goop: 2 health + 4 health over time (6 health in total)
• Compost: 8 health over time
• Bucket-o-poop: 3 health per use, 10 uses in total (30 health in total)
• Compost Wrap: 8 health + 32 health over time (40 health in total)

While it's nice to see that Wormwood is now able to utilize compost fertilizers for a reasonable amount of health, manure fertilizers on the other hand are still kind of useless as a healing source despite being harder to obtain compared to rot.

Blooming from Growth Formular:

I still need some time to understand how the Growth Formular mechanics do work for Wormwood, it appears they are somewhat RNG based. Here's some information I found so far:

Blooming:

• Old Hunger Rate: +33.33%, +66.67%, +100%
• New Hunger Rate: +6.67%, +13.33%, +20%
• Overheating resistance: +60 (same value as Straw Hat, only if fully blooming)

 

Among all those changes there are some changes I don't really like:

Wormwood's hunger multiplier is increased by 20% instead of 100% during spring:
This change removes a reason to farm crops during spring which is already the best season for Wormwood to farm crops:

• All plants (except Pumpkin and Pepper) enjoy spring
• Rain drops almost 24/7, making watering your plants unnecessary
• Plants can be attended by walking once across the whole farm, if Wormwood is blooming
• Birds spawn faster during spring, dropping more seeds for crops
• Wormwood doesn't need a hoe or the Garden Rigamajig to start his own farm
• If that's not enough hunger for him, he can also rely on Red Caps which do respawn during spring & can be consumed by Wormwood without penalties

Outside of spring it's ok for Wormwood not to have a high hunger drain to avoid becoming a jerk character who just consumes all your food while enjoying his +20% movement speed, but during spring he should make use of his advanced crop farming abilities & have an usage for all the crops he farms.

Undocumented change: Bees are friendly towards Wormwood during spring:
It is somewhat nice to see that Wormwood isn't extra annoyed by nearby beeboxes anymore, but everyone (Wormwood included) should learn that Wormwood and bees just don't mix during spring:

• While bees don't attack Wormwood during spring anymore, they do still act like killer bees towards other characters, punishing everyone but the one who leads all the bees to the base. Especially Walter will suffer from this due to his bee allergy. Quite similar cases are to place Spider Dens as Webber, or Mermhouses as Wurt close to the base: Webber/Wurt won't suffer from their own actions at all, but everyone else will.
• Since his own flowers don't contain any nectar at all, bees will literally stop working and not produce any honey at all if a Wormwood is nearby

I would like to let other every Wormwood player know that they should stay away from bees during spring as it is a jerk move to lead Killer Bees to other players.

 

Not a change but still worth to be mentioned: Wormwood is still not immune towards manure:
Wormwood still looses 10 sanity if he's hit by the manure (thrown by splumonkeys) he's about to rub straight into his own face.

Off-Topic, about "Giant veggies can be waxed with Beeswax to preserve them forever.":
Here we run into the same issue we had back when Marble Figures required Boss loot to be crafted: Since waxing giant veggies requires Beeswax, you literally need to use boss loot to make non-perishing giant veggies, which do act like Marble Figures. While Honeycombs (which are required for Beeswax) can be obtained by smashing Beehives or Killer Bee Hives, these kind of Honeycomb sources aren't renewable since either kind of hive doesn't respawn over time. The only renewable source for Honeycombs (or Beeswax) are Bee Queen (Either by killing Bee Queen and obtaining 1-2 Honeycombs, or 1% chance when smashing the giant bee hive) or Klaus (by deconstructing the Wax Paper dropped from the bundles).
I don't mind requiring Beeswax to make those statues, but smashing waxed veggies should at least return the used Beeswax (especially if a Wilson uses all the Honeycombs to make statues out of all your giant veggies, or if the same Wilson uses a hammer to turn all your waxed giant veggies into food because he's starving).

p.s. here's a nice picture for you from yesterday:

Spoiler

Sliced and Spiced!

 

[1bubbainpa]

I think it’s fine that easy-to-get manure still doesn’t do much to Wormwood. He basically got big buffs this update. More potent heals should require more expensive recipes, with the compost wrap being significantly tweaked with its recipe.

Although I do agree that bees are super annoying. Like STOP FOLLOWING ME!

[Ohan]

Klei cant account for every single possible, imaginable abuse case for every single possible, imaginable mechanic, and they shouldnt. Waxing giant veggies was a requested feature by people looking to decorate with them, and im really happy klei listened. I find it extremely doubtful that a random 'Wilson' will grief a public server by wasting honey combs on waxing crops. Beehives are already flammable, just a thought. 

48 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

This change removes a reason to farm crops during spring

Just because Wormwood is no longer a bottomless stomach when Blooming doesnt mean farming in spring is any less valuable. I dont really understand this complaint. Ud have to spend all ur time planting and harvesting if you intend to fill ur x2 drain belly with crops alone. Wild planting was never the major solution to the Bloom hunger drain since nothing u can get from Crops can match Meaty Stews and Meatballs for hunger. Wormwood needing less food in spring means he'll have even more to share with other survivors or beefalo! 

53 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Wormwood is still not immune towards manure:Wormwood still looses 10 sanity if he's hit by the manure (thrown by splumonkeys)

Theres a big difference between rubbing it on yourself and having it flung at ur head by rascal monkeys in the caves. I use face cream and i like it but i wouldnt want a monkey at the zoo to throw a handful of it at my head . I think it makes sense 

1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

manure fertilizers on the other hand are still kind of useless as a healing source despite being harder to obtain compared to rot.

Id say they're equally as easy to obtain, if not the other way around. Manure/guano is right there for the picking starting on day 1, early on rot is much harder to get. With the changes to Compost Wrap, manure now is a valuable component of a recipe that heals for a respectable chunk and triggers blooming, which is why i dont think it needs to heal more by itself. 

7 minutes ago, 1bubbainpa said:

Although I do agree that bees are super annoying. Like STOP FOLLOWING ME!

Throw on a Bramble Husk and teach them a lesson! 

[HeatAndRun]

1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

Not a change but still worth to be mentioned: Wormwood is still not immune towards manure:
Wormwood still looses 10 sanity if he's hit by the manure (thrown by splumonkeys) he's about to rub straight into his own face.

Well it's like, eh, for example, eating foods and being hit by foods are different. Heh.

[Well-met]

I'm glad that wax has a new sink other than paper.

If you don't want to waste wax, then don't turn giant crops into decorations (something thats entirely cosmetical and has zero benefit to gameplay)

[loopuleasa]

I agree with the waxed giant crop suggestion, I thought it already works like that and this is stupid.

[DaZoul]

1 hour ago, Ohan said:

Theres a big difference between rubbing it on yourself and having it flung at ur head by rascal monkeys in the caves. I use face cream and i like it but i wouldnt want a monkey at the zoo to throw a handful of it at my head . I think it makes sense 

But that is you. Wormwood is... well, Wormwood. I think he'd actually like it

[Maxil20]

3 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

• Manure: 2 health
• Guano: 3 health
• Rot: 4 health over time

I honestly didn't know how buffed rot got, and the fact it is better then manure/guano overall is a bit bizarre to think about. Thanks for pointing this out!
 

3 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

Wormwood's hunger multiplier is increased by 20% instead of 100% during spring:
This change removes a reason to farm crops during spring which is already the best season for Wormwood to farm crops...

Personally, I actually like how he uses less hunger overall during spring. His hunger rate directly correlates with his speed boost now, similar to how Wilbur from SW used 33% more hunger to move 33% faster.

Overall, I still think Wormwood planting crops will still be a norm during spring. It didn't make much sense how he practically had Wortox's downside throughout the entire spring unless you were actively farming, but a little hunger drain to encourage it sounds neat.

 

3 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

I don't mind requiring Beeswax to make those statues, but smashing waxed veggies should at least return the used Beeswax

I do agree with this change. It sounds simple to code and it really makes a difference to not worry about wasting rare resources. I already struggled making boss sculptures before the QoL update, for instance.

[Viktor234]

1 hour ago, Ohan said:

I find it extremely doubtful that a random 'Wilson' will grief a public server by wasting honey combs on waxing crops. Beehives are already flammable, just a thought. 

Even if the chance is somewhere near zero, it's still greater than zero and still possible. There are players out there eating Jellybeans for sanity, cooking mandrakes for hunger, burning the twig farm for healing salve, smashing Ice Flingomatics for an Insulated Pack, etc. and while it's not likely that they'll use wax on crops, it's even more likely that they'll use a hammer on waxed crops.
The reason why I want this to be implemented is to be able to revert the mistake of a player without being forced to rollback (and to kick him if he doesn't want to learn).

2 hours ago, Ohan said:

With the changes to Compost Wrap, manure now is a valuable component of a recipe that heals for a respectable chunk and triggers blooming, which is why i dont think it needs to heal more by itself.

That sadly doesn't make guano (which also is a manure fertilizer) more useful for Wormwood.

2 hours ago, Ohan said:

I dont really understand this complaint. Ud have to spend all ur time planting and harvesting if you intend to fill ur x2 drain belly with crops alone. Wild planting was never the major solution to the Bloom hunger drain since nothing u can get from Crops can match Meaty Stews and Meatballs for hunger.

Perhaps it's just me, but I enjoyed it to be forced to farm crops & to find enough food as Wormwood during spring while also doing other tasks. But now when I'm playing Wormwood during spring, it feels like I don't need to eat anything at all, leaving all my crops, monster meat and red caps behind. +20% movement speed and +100% faster growing crops for +100% increased hunger feels like a good trade for me.
Also: Meatballs can't match the hunger you can get from crops.

1 hour ago, HeatAndRun said:

Well it's like, eh, for example, eating foods and being hit by foods are different. Heh.

If you consider that food is manure, please send me a video of you wrapping your whole body in food.
If you consider that manure is food, please send me a video of you drinking a whole bottle of hand sanitizer (Definetly not recommended).
If neither is the case, please tell me that you agree with me that your current statement is invalid. Thank you.

[Dechou]

12 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

If you consider that food is manure, please send me a video of you wrapping your whole body in food.

If you consider that manure is food, please send me a video of you drinking a whole bottle of hand sanitizer (Definetly not recommended).
If neither is the case, please tell me that you agree with me that your current statement is invalid. Thank you.

I must say his point is valid, I don't think you'd enjoy something you like to rub on you being thrown violently at you the same way.

[KeshS]

5 minutes ago, Dechou said:

I must say his point is valid, I don't think you'd enjoy something you like to rub on you being thrown violently at you the same way.

Then we have squids that throw ink at players face and it doesn't reduce any stats. OP point is also valid, and it is a fun mechanic for a single char that makes sense.

[Ohan]

29 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

That sadly doesn't make guano (which also is a manure fertilizer) more useful for Wormwood.

Does it need to be though? I understand where ur coming from but wormwood already has so many healing options, i actually cant believe they added rotten eggs and fish skeletons as fertilizers! Guano is a resource that automatically appears on its own with 0 player input just like poop. Wouldnt seem right for it to heal as much as say a spider gland which is a % drop from a mob kill imo. Its a little bit of free healing for the early game which definitely can add up 

29 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Perhaps it's just me, but I enjoyed it to be forced to farm crops & to find enough food as Wormwood during spring while also doing other tasks.

Blooming before was imo a confused mechanic it was neither wholly a perk because it was active for such a short period of time nor was it really advertised as a downside. Now it is much more solidly a unique character perk. I think its more interesting now that you have more of a choice when it comes to what you do with your bountiful Spring harvest instead of just eating it all. It also strengthens Wormwoods existing synergy with beefalo domestication further. 

 

[ShadowDuelist]

I think the blooming changes were needed, we now have a way to see and use the blooming at any season, and it doesn’t turn Wormwood into an endless pit of food all year long.
 

It would seem to me that his point is not to be a “Wes with some perks” anymore, and become an even more proficient support character than he already was.

He now seems to have interesting skills that make him better suited at fights all year long (speed boost, and controlled regeneration without a boss item) besides being an ingredients and living logs machine. 

Regarding bees I agree that it is a quite weird change. Would it be too OP if the bees did get nectar from his flowers like if it was a regular flower?
This could possibly open new strategies of releasing killers bees as a bloomed Wormwood during fights which sounds pretty interesting though.

[Viktor234]

7 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I think the blooming changes were needed, we now have a way to see and use the blooming at any season, and it doesn’t turn Wormwood into an endless pit of food all year long.
 

It would seem to me that his point is not to be a “Wes with some perks” anymore, and become an even more proficient support character than he already was.

He now seems to have interesting skills that make him better suited at fights all year long (speed boost, and controlled regeneration without a boss item) besides being an ingredients and living logs machine. 

Regarding bees I agree that it is a quite weird change. Would it be too OP if the bees did get nectar from his flowers like if it was a regular flower?
This could possibly open new strategies of releasing killers bees as a bloomed Wormwood during fights which sounds pretty interesting though.

Reading this makes me feel like nobody here knows the real potential Wormwood offers to players.

Calling Wormwood a supporter because he can't rely on pierogies and "needs" to rely on boss items.
Calling Wormwood into an endless pit of food because of his previous +100% hunger drain during spring.

[themightyone]

Can Wormwood still plant seeds in random spots after this update?  Or did Klei remove that ability? 

[Viktor234]

Just now, themightyone said:

Can Wormwood still plant seeds in random spots after this update?  Or did Klei remove that ability? 

Wormwood can still plant his plants everywhere, but if planted in random spots then you won't be able to wet the ground where its planted on and the plant won't be able to obtain any fertilizers at all.

[ShadowDuelist]

1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

Calling Wormwood into an endless pit of food because of his previous +100% hunger drain during spring.

If he can bloom most of the year, without any change to his hunger drain, means he'd have  around x2 food need most of the year, for a mere 20% speed boost, which would be an endless pit of food. So the change of food need goes accordingly with that other change Klei did and I think it's a fair deal.

Wormwood IS a support character because he produces more food than he can eat, and thus, is meant to support groups of players. It doesn't mean that he can't achieve awesome things on its own or that you can't solo all bosses with him. I just mean that his perks are aimed towards feeding groups of people and supplying living logs.

1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

Calling Wormwood a supporter because he can't rely on pierogies and "needs" to rely on boss items.

I never said he needed to rely on boss items, please read again my post, I said he now has a regenerative perk without a boss items which is something nobody else has and its pretty cool for battles.
Now instead of having to move to a side to heal with a salve or a poultice, he gets a lot more value of regenerating during a fight with a much cheaper item than jellybeans, opening more combat strategies.

The condescending tone is not necessary, if you know a strategy nobody else knows, just explain it, I actually love learning new strats here, or sharing the ones I know.

[Archswifter]

20% hunger drain for a 20% speed boost sounds fair.

[Spirit Glow]

4 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

If you consider that food is manure, please send me a video of you wrapping your whole body in food.
If you consider that manure is food, please send me a video of you drinking a whole bottle of hand sanitizer (Definetly not recommended).
If neither is the case, please tell me that you agree with me that your current statement is invalid. Thank you.

I think the losing sanity by being hit with manure is perfectly fine.

 

Manure can be considered food....if you are a plant, that is.

[HowlVoid]

Oh god please don't bring back his hunger drain! It made no sense to have the same hunger drain as mighty wolfgang without nearly as good benefits. Late game it was just annoying having to carry twice as much food around. Having bees around me is really cool and I use them during hound waves and such. Removing this pseudo damage boost because of noobs is idiotic. Having a flingo and burning the hive freezes them in place anyways.

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

If he can bloom most of the year, without any change to his hunger drain, means he'd have  around x2 food need most of the year, for a mere 20% speed boost, which would be an endless pit of food. So the change of food need goes accordingly with that other change Klei did and I think it's a fair deal.

Wormwood IS a support character because he produces more food than he can eat, and thus, is meant to support groups of players. It doesn't mean that he can't achieve awesome things on its own or that you can't solo all bosses with him. I just mean that his perks are aimed towards feeding groups of people and supplying living logs.

I never said he needed to rely on boss items, please read again my post, I said he now has a regenerative perk without a boss items which is something nobody else has and its pretty cool for battles.
Now instead of having to move to a side to heal with a salve or a poultice, he gets a lot more value of regenerating during a fight with a much cheaper item than jellybeans, opening more combat strategies.

The condescending tone is not necessary, if you know a strategy nobody else knows, just explain it, I actually love learning new strats here, or sharing the ones I know.

I hate it when people apply a role to a character. Wormwood is NOT a support character and should not be forced to assume that role. His ability to feed other is only a by product of his abilities. Giving "fighter" characters only fighting perks and "support" characters only support perks is a terrible idea dilutes the game. Everyone should be given perks to be useful in every category. This is why wormwood mains are forced to plant seeds instead of being allowed to fight. He can mass kill spiders with his husk. He can heal in fights with a bat bat. He can wield a dark sword 24/7. He is NOT support. He is a well rounded character. Wormwood is Wormwood. 

[Gourmand]

9 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

Even if the chance is somewhere near zero, it's still greater than zero and still possible. There are players out there eating Jellybeans for sanity, cooking mandrakes for hunger, burning the twig farm for healing salve, smashing Ice Flingomatics for an Insulated Pack, etc. and while it's not likely that they'll use wax on crops, it's even more likely that they'll use a hammer on waxed crops.
The reason why I want this to be implemented is to be able to revert the mistake of a player without being forced to rollback (and to kick him if he doesn't want to learn).

That sadly doesn't make guano (which also is a manure fertilizer) more useful for Wormwood.

Perhaps it's just me, but I enjoyed it to be forced to farm crops & to find enough food as Wormwood during spring while also doing other tasks. But now when I'm playing Wormwood during spring, it feels like I don't need to eat anything at all, leaving all my crops, monster meat and red caps behind. +20% movement speed and +100% faster growing crops for +100% increased hunger feels like a good trade for me.
Also: Meatballs can't match the hunger you can get from crops.

If you consider that food is manure, please send me a video of you wrapping your whole body in food.
If you consider that manure is food, please send me a video of you drinking a whole bottle of hand sanitizer (Definetly not recommended).
If neither is the case, please tell me that you agree with me that your current statement is invalid. Thank you.

You woke up and chose violence  keep it civil guys 

[Viktor234]

I took my time to understand how Wormwood's blooming works now, and it feels a bit disappointing, at least for me.

 

How to trigger Blooming as Wormwood? Simply: Apply any kind of growth formula fertilizer on you and wait 2 days.

Applying any growth formula fertilizer while you're in stage 1 or 2 reduces the time it takes to get to the next blooming stage, for example:

• Using 20% of a Super Growth Formula increases your blooming rate by 25%, from 1.0 to 1.25: You'll have to wait 20% less to get to the next blooming stage.
• Using 100% of a Super Growth Formula increases your blooming rate by 125%, from 1.0 to 2.25: You'll have to wait 55.56% less to get to the next blooming stage.

But since the rate does not affect the duration of your highest blooming stage and the rate resets back to 1.0 once you get to the next blooming stage, it is not recommended to fertilize yourself while in stage 1 or 2.

Once you've reached the 3rd blooming stage, you'll bloom for the next 3 days (1440 seconds in total), applying growth formula fertilizers increases the duration you'll stay in stage 3:

• Spoiled Fish Morsel: +60 seconds
• Glommer's Goop: +60 seconds
• Spoiled Fish: +120 seconds
• Compost Wrap: +180 seconds
• Super Growth Formula: +240 seconds, 5 uses (1200 seconds or 2.5 days in total)

But you can't exceed the limit of 5 days, using more growth formula fertilizers with 5 days of full blooming stage won't increase the blooming stage at all.

Once the time is over, your blooming will drop to stage 2 and within one day to stage 1 and then to stage 0. You can start the blooming again by using any growth formula fertilizer, e.g. using one on stage 2 will make you fully bloom again within a single day.

During Winter you'll need to wait 33% longer (1.33 days) until reaching the next blooming stage and once you've reached the highest stage, your blooming will drop twice as fast (1.5 days of blooming and +1.25 days per 5 uses of Super Growth Formula). During Spring the required time shortens by 33% (0.67 days), once you've reached the highest stage, blooming won't drop at all.

So actually the most effective way to achieve blooming is to use one single Spoiled Fish Morsel and wait 2 days, that will give you 3 days of blooming. Once your blooming is over, just repeat, but this time you'll only have to wait only one day until you get to your 3rd blooming stage. Also try to avoid using growth formula fertilizers while in the first or 2nd stage since they won't increase the duration in your 3rd stage.

[loopuleasa]

On 12/17/2020 at 12:45 AM, Archswifter said:

20% hunger drain for a 20% speed boost sounds fair.

sounds very fair

I would take 10 please

 

200% hunger drain for a 200% speed boost when?

[Parusoid]

On 12/16/2020 at 4:29 PM, Viktor234 said:

Undocumented change

add to that the fact that crops planted by wormwood stay on the farm fresh 1.5 times longer

 

On 12/16/2020 at 4:29 PM, Viktor234 said:

Wormwood is still not immune towards manure:

dont forget how easy it is to regain sanity as wormwood

On 12/16/2020 at 4:29 PM, Viktor234 said:

smashing waxed veggies should at least return the used Beeswax

absolutely not, if you are scared of griefing then everything really can be griefed. doubt it will ever happen but if it did then it should return the beeswax only if green stafff was used, not *just* hammer