[Game Update] Summer Patch Available Now! - 419840

[pether]

4 hours ago, XxMassive said:

I don't know where else to ask this or if it hasn't been asked already. I consider the following to also be exploits:

• Liquid locks that aren't viscogel, such as the T shape liquid lock, or the vertical multi liquid-liquid lock.

please ignore the above comment

[6Havok9]

4 hours ago, XxMassive said:

Liquid locks that aren't viscogel, such as the T shape liquid lock, or the vertical multi liquid-liquid lock.

I would not consider a T shaped liquid lock to be an exploit by itself. That's how toilets prevent you from enjoying the smell of your and everybody else's digestive byproducts.

Granted they don't have vacuum on one side and nuclear fusion enabling pressure on another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_(plumbing)

The multi liquid lock instead... "ONI physics" 

[TripleM999]

23 minutes ago, 6Havok9 said:

The multi liquid lock instead... "ONI physics"

Though if you consider it, the viscogel is not a counterargument to them, but the perfect legitimation for them, cause it exhibits two fundamental truths of ONI physics:

• gas pressure does not influences liquids
• liquids are stackable

[vascoegertklei]

On 7/7/2020 at 11:51 PM, bleeter6 said:

A workaround is to cool the edges of the sweeper arm and avoid the middle. That's what I've been doing.

Yeah I know, but I can't load my save to change anything without stuff breaking now, because the sweepers will drop 1600C igneous rock into the petroleum that they are sitting in, turning a significant area of vacuum into sour gas.

On 7/8/2020 at 12:46 PM, leyt1125 said:

P.S.: So happy those bug abusers crying like lil girls here about their cheating bases will be broken 

I see no one here 'crying' about bugs being fixed. You clearly misread or misunderstood what some people are discussing here. In my case, I am saying that the RE-introduction of a bug is screwing up with a build using normal game mechanics. A sweeper dropping it's inventory (whether it be hot debris, polluted dirt, eggs) every time the game loads is simply broken and will cause problems for many people.

[XxMassive]

3 hours ago, 6Havok9 said:

I would not consider a T shaped liquid lock to be an exploit by itself. That's how toilets prevent you from enjoying the smell of your and everybody else's digestive byproducts.

Granted they don't have vacuum on one side and nuclear fusion enabling pressure on another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_(plumbing)

The multi liquid lock instead... "ONI physics" 

Well pointed. 

The minimalist T shaped liquid lock that's popular in ONI does however break general physics as liquids wouldn't stick to the top centre block of the T. I'm only proposing that if we want a pre-viscogel liquid lock that we create the trap plumbing U shape with ladders, which is closer to real world physics. For the non-haters of this, I don't think Klei could ever fix this as a block can only contain one material. Or... will they patch in half blocks for only liquid and gas interactions.

2 hours ago, TripleM999 said:

Though if you consider it, the viscogel is not a counterargument to them, but the perfect legitimation for them, cause it exhibits two fundamental truths of ONI physics:

• gas pressure does not influences liquids
• liquids are stackable

Well booze has been stackable for a long time - the B52, squashed frog etc. but yes, not without solid sides.

[Nedix]

For the love of God please change back the color of the insulated pipes! I can't work with this color, it hurts my eyes and I can't distinguish if there water in the liquid pipes or oxygen/steam in the gas pipes. The game is unplayable for me now.

Please Klei revert this.

[pether]

3 minutes ago, Nedix said:

Please Klei revert this.

My understanding is that the change was done for color-blind folks. So maybe instead of reverting it, adding option in the setting menu would be better idea - this way all could benefit

[Nedix]

@pether I could work with that

[nessumo]

I love the idea and love the choice of blue color - that being said I can support changing the exact color value to be more distinctive.

[Baer]

My dupes struggle to fill up my Refrigerators. stuff lies around, some are idle in the base but nothing happens. did someone experience the same? 

[Cybeon]

On 7/9/2020 at 8:42 AM, XxMassive said:

Well done Klei for continual patches and more specifically patching exploits such as the sweepy dock not overheating.

I don't know where else to ask this or if it hasn't been asked already. I consider the following to also be exploits:

• Liquid locks that aren't viscogel, such as the T shape liquid lock, or the vertical multi liquid-liquid lock.
• Diagonal building
• Unpowered incubator lullabying
• Infinite liquid storage - I'm sure you got plans for this one
• Diagonally teleporting magma debris to power the steam turbine.

I'm just targeting Francis John tbh bless him. This is a problem solving game and I'd like to solve the problems without being tempted by the exploits, and then if unable to myself - applaud the person who does.

I'm not sure those can be considered as exploits. (Well, maybe except of "Unpowered incubator lullabying"). Everything else is direct consequence of ONI physics. And the way how it works makes me think that it was done deliberately in that way. The fact that it conflicts with real world physics means nothing. Klei have deliberately created world with physics somewhat different and it's part of what makes the game so interesting.
 

And exploiting weird physics is what humans do. E.g. there are lot's of weird stuff happens in quantum physics or in general relativity which intuitively is just wrong. That doesn't stop us from creating lasers, GPS, quantum computers (they are far from useful yet, but they do exist) and other cool things, which rely in those effects.

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Cybeon

[XxMassive]

13 hours ago, Cybeon said:

I'm not sure those can be considered as exploits. (Well, maybe except of "Unpowered incubator lullabying"). Everything else is direct consequence of ONI physics. And the way how it works makes me think that it was done deliberately in that way. The fact that it conflicts with real world physics means nothing. Klei have deliberately created world with physics somewhat different and it's part of what makes the game so interesting.
 

I somewhat agree, ONI is doing it's best to mimic real world physics, but it has limitations which creates the term "ONI physics." And is still super interesting and personally, educational.

This is from Wikipedia: 

Quote

Video game exploit. ... In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

I believe at the very least - infinite liquid storage was never intended by the game designers. Arguably, I don't think they expected players to have access to super easy and minimal liquid locks (the T shape) so early in base building. Unless there is an official statement (because it's something I don't think they can fix), that explains which designs and techniques they'd have preferred us not using, we'll never know. And I'll keep using my own much worse design.

13 hours ago, Cybeon said:

And exploiting weird physics is what humans do. E.g. there are lot's of weird stuff happens in quantum physics or in general relativity which intuitively is just wrong. That doesn't stop us from creating lasers, GPS, quantum computers (they are far from useful yet, but they do exist) and other cool things, which rely in those effects.

No doubt. We are playing this game after all and doing some amazing experimenting in the real world too, in spite of many limitations. And we'll keep exploiting the weird physics in ONI even if KLEI patch out (and add more limitations to) what I believe to be exploits.

[Gurgel]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:05 PM, Cybeon said:

I'm not sure those can be considered as exploits. (Well, maybe except of "Unpowered incubator lullabying"). Everything else is direct consequence of ONI physics. And the way how it works makes me think that it was done deliberately in that way. The fact that it conflicts with real world physics means nothing. Klei have deliberately created world with physics somewhat different and it's part of what makes the game so interesting.

And exploiting weird physics is what humans do. E.g. there are lot's of weird stuff happens in quantum physics or in general relativity which intuitively is just wrong. That doesn't stop us from creating lasers, GPS, quantum computers (they are far from useful yet, but they do exist) and other cool things, which rely in those effects.

ONI is a simulation. Simulations do not have "exploits". They may have bugs. Hence I completely agree to this. Except on Quantum Computers. They do not really exist at this time, the published computing "records" are faked by not actually stringing steps together, because that still breaks entanglement even for low numbers of QBits with very high probability. Hence they do all steps of the quantum computation separately. But that means the theoretical advantages are lost and the whole thing is not a quantum computation. In a sense they have quantum-"gates", but they cannot build a working computer from them.

[TheMule]

On 7/12/2020 at 5:46 AM, Gurgel said:

Unpowered incubator lullabying

Personally, I have zero problems with this, I find it a totally legit use of automation.

It's no different from preventing a coal generator consuming all the coal in one go... you could allow that and store the energy produced in batteries. Instead, we use automation to activate it only when we need power and we eliminate the need of the battery bank. Automation is meant to be used creatively to prevent things from happening or to cause things happen when we decide they should.  We've been given the basic blocks of logic in order to build our own circuits instead of relaying on pre-made logic.

And, OTOH, if the devs wanted to remove the lullabied bonus from eggs inside unpowered incubators, they could easily do that.

If anything I miss more controls on incubators... like ejecting an egg before it hatches. I could use one incubator for lullabying multiple eggs and/or move a 95% incubated egg to the stable w/o dup intervention. Incubators could have settings similar to massage tables or reservoirs. Accept only eggs that are some % already incubated (lower limit) and spit out eggs that exceed the upper limit.

On 7/11/2020 at 10:45 AM, XxMassive said:

infinite liquid storage was never intended by the game designers

That's kind of irrelevant, as the mechanics it relies on it's not a bug itself. One element per tile rule is very clearly intended by the devs. That's what we're using here. Not a bug, not the game unable to track time/events correctly, or a glitch. When you develop a game based on player's creativity, you're bound to see something you didn't expect... it's kind of the point actually.

I find way more exploity to create natural tiles by deconstructing a door. It clearly isn't supposed to happen because every other time we deconstruct something we get debris, and that includes the same door in any other condition. It's 100% a glitch.

Making tiles by freezing enough liquid is a well know mechanic. You need a certain amount to get a full tile instead of debris. Using state changes other than freezing is a bit different... for example I believe that 10kg of slime (as a debris, or loaded on a rail) should turn into another debris instead of a full tile. So that's kind of borderline to me.

Another example: we know that in many situations, the one-element-per-tile rule cause mass deletion. If you build on top of something and it has nowhere else to go, it gets destroyed. That's game mechanics. But there are cases (condensation inside airflow tiles, freezing inside mesh tile) in which matter gets teleported, instead of destroyed, even several tiles away. That's against the rule "if you can't be here, and have nowhere to go, you get destroyed". As such, it smells like a glitch, a lot.

[Gurgel]

6 hours ago, TheMule said:

Personally, I have zero problems with this, I find it a totally legit use of automation.

I think you misquoted me there, I never wrote anything about incubators...

[TheMule]

1 hour ago, Gurgel said:

I think you misquoted me there, I never wrote anything about incubators...

You're right my apologies.

Here's the right attribution (not easy to quote two messages in two different pages: I had to submit two replies and they got merged, the I had to edit the message to rearrange it).

On 7/9/2020 at 8:42 AM, XxMassive said:

Unpowered incubator lullabying

Edited July 14, 2020 by TheMule

[Smife]

On 7/9/2020 at 7:42 AM, XxMassive said:

Well done Klei for continual patches and more specifically patching exploits such as the sweepy dock not overheating.

I don't know where else to ask this or if it hasn't been asked already. I consider the following to also be exploits:

• Liquid locks that aren't viscogel, such as the T shape liquid lock, or the vertical multi liquid-liquid lock.
• Diagonal building
• Unpowered incubator lullabying
• Infinite liquid storage - I'm sure you got plans for this one
• Diagonally teleporting magma debris to power the steam turbine.

I'm just targeting Francis John tbh bless him. This is a problem solving game and I'd like to solve the problems without being tempted by the exploits, and then if unable to myself - applaud the person who does.

not exploits, game mechanics, or even features. It's a GAME, and it's GAMEY, and that's why we play GAMES, to have FUN, solve that. Your suggestions won't change anything unless you enjoy tediousness. 98% of players don't even notice the "issues" discussed here, resulting in patches that do more harm than good. They play, because they simply like the game.

"tempted by the exploits", dude seriously 

[XxMassive]

On 7/14/2020 at 9:32 PM, TheMule said:

That's kind of irrelevant, as the mechanics it relies on it's not a bug itself. One element per tile rule is very clearly intended by the devs. That's what we're using here. Not a bug, not the game unable to track time/events correctly, or a glitch. 

You don't think that having one tile of water going past its limit of 1,000kg not a bug/glitch/error? Considering that placing over 100kg of viscogel in a tile explodes abysallite, it feels like something the developers didn't account for.

8 hours ago, Smife said:

not exploits, game mechanics, or even features. It's a GAME, and it's GAMEY, and that's why we play GAMES, to have FUN, solve that. Your suggestions won't change anything unless you enjoy tediousness. 98% of players don't even notice the "issues" discussed here, resulting in patches that do more harm than good. They play, because they simply like the game.

"tempted by the exploits", dude seriously 

I can't speak for 98% of the players here, but I'm sure they are really good at the game and are interested in more challenge. My opinionated list of exploits are suggestions to make the game more difficult, perhaps tedious. But IMO I don't think KLEI intended for players to very easily create liquid locks and have unlimited liquid storage so early (<50 cycles) into the game. I wouldn't be surprised if barbecue gets a nerf to make the game harder for us.

This GAME is FUN. I find it more FUN when I problem solve my own solution. Infinite liquid storage IMO is cheating and I'll never use it, it won't tempt me. My other suggested exploits however tempt me very often.

[TheMule]

 

1 hour ago, XxMassive said:

You don't think that having one tile of water going past its limit of 1,000kg not a bug/glitch/error?

Definitely not: here's a tile with 1020.1 kg. I don't know where you got the idea that a tile of water is limited to 1000 kg. It's not, it's happening in every game actually, since cycle 1. Start a new map as see for yourself, any pocket of water is going to have tiles above 1000 kg at the bottom. It's the way developers represent "pressure". Players found ways to use it to their advantage but it's totally intended game mechanics: someone had to actually write code to allow for that.

 

As for enclosed pockets in which the top tiles are above their overflow size (and can't overflow because, well, they're enclosed), many maps have pockets of high pressure liquids. It's very common in the oil biome, if yoy're not carefull you pop a pocket that floods several tiles up with oil. It's a common and natural occurrence in the game. It's not a glitch. Players just found ways to artificially create those and pushed it to the extreme. But high pressure liquid pockets are definitely something that is in the game because the devs put them in.

 

1 hour ago, XxMassive said:

I don't think KLEI intended for players to very easily create liquid lock

The developers themselves featured a liquid lock in their video. Why showcasing something that players aren't supposed to use?

[watermelen671]

On 7/7/2020 at 2:11 PM, Ipsquiggle said:

Holy cow that hair on Rowan! He looks great in his Johnny Bravo cosplay!

Spoiler

Also that's the wrong jumpsuit color on Rowan but I'm starting to think you guys to this on purpose to urk me...

Worry not though because I fixed it:

 

[Smife]

15 hours ago, XxMassive said:

I can't speak for 98% of the players here, but I'm sure they are really good at the game and are interested in more challenge. My opinionated list of exploits are suggestions to make the game more difficult, perhaps tedious. But IMO I don't think KLEI intended for players to very easily create liquid locks and have unlimited liquid storage so early (<50 cycles) into the game. I wouldn't be surprised if barbecue gets a nerf to make the game harder for us.

This GAME is FUN. I find it more FUN when I problem solve my own solution. Infinite liquid storage IMO is cheating and I'll never use it, it won't tempt me. My other suggested exploits however tempt me very often.

3/4 people who own the game don't have the Royal Flush achievement. A new player still needs to do quite a bit of research outside of the game to progress. Don't tell me there's no challenge. Not everyone spends most of their playtime in debug experimenting and looking for exploits. KLEI didn't provide a direct option, so players came up with a solution (that requires dupe labour, planning , is messy and already tedious imo). Is that not problem solving? How come you didn't mention the infinite gas storage then? You can call anything you want an exploit with this kind of logic.

[Baer]

How to prevent gasexchance from rooms. That whas my first google search to ONI.

[Mr.Kelvin]

I have a petition for future releases, please in the HVAC include a heat exchanger (like tubular concentrical ones in counter flow) for:

1) Liquid/Liquid (actually imposible to create except they are nearly separated, isolated and in vacumm or with excessive metal and finally have a low transfer rate)

2) gas/liquid (this could be created in game but requires much metal)

3) not gas/gas because their low thermal conductivity, small transfer sucks ass.

As the amount of mass is limitated, you can aproximate at 90% of heat transfer efficiency (liq-liq). And this building has to be of pure metal

Sorry for the nerdy details

[TheMule]

Liquid/liquid and liquid/gas can be done with a waterfall. 

[Gurgel]

On 7/15/2020 at 9:05 AM, Smife said:

not exploits, game mechanics, or even features. It's a GAME, and it's GAMEY, and that's why we play GAMES, to have FUN, solve that. Your suggestions won't change anything unless you enjoy tediousness. 98% of players don't even notice the "issues" discussed here, resulting in patches that do more harm than good. They play, because they simply like the game.

"tempted by the exploits", dude seriously 

I am not sure why this crops up time and again and always in this way. Some people just seem to have some wires shortened out with regards to how they think other people should behave and what they should enjoy and what not. I have absolutely no problem with anybody having a personal opinion or preference, clearly labelled as such. But this is always people that presume to speak for others or claim that "most people" would agree with them and claim that they just want to make the game better for "everyone". It is always people that claim things are "exploits" (hence attaching an immoral valuation to doing them) when there is really no sane justification to do so. It is always people that regard effects of base mechanisms of the simulation as undesirable and they proclaim that they somehow want to "protect" others from them or getting tempted to use them. And it is usually people that pontificate about the way the game is "meant to be played", citing how they think the developers want people to play. Just as if there was some divine order that says you have to play a game how the developers of that game want you to or you are a bad person and will get only bad options for your next reincarnation cycle. 

These people really, really get on my nerve. I speak for myself. Nobody else does, unless I have explicitly authorized them to do so. I decide what I want and what changes I would welcome. And I decide what my moral values are, nobody else. (This being a game, I do not have any. Everything is fine because a game is not real. That is the very point of a game.) 

And, the fact of the matter is that ONI is a simulation and the very idea of an "exploit" is completely irrelevant to simulations. They cannot have them. Not possible. It is also completely normal and expected for simulations to have "emergent properties" their designers never anticipated. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Gurgel