Please do not nerf Wolfgang

[chenais]

In DST, most bosses are meant to be fought by multiple people at the same time. If you want to defeat them solo, you pretty much have to play Wolfgang to avoid a 3000 years preparation, unless you are literally a god of DST, which takes a lot of time to achieve. Wolfgang makes ridiculous bosses (like the Bee Queen that is almost impossible to dodge due to the honey) and toadstool, which is a giant health pool machine, doable (without any teammates). If you nerf Wolfgang, this will force players to use cheesy techniques if they do not want to spend 2000 years worth of practice just to kill one little boss. Like for real, trying to solo a boss like the Bee Queen as an average-advanced player would be a true hell without the x2 damage from Wolfgang. Just leave him as he is, please.

For those who are asking me from where I took the information he is getting nerfed: 

I hope the Wolfgang rework is not a nerf, just a rework.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

you dont need 3000 years of preparation, just manage time and dont waste it picking twigs when you already have a chest full of them. Also playing only wolfgang is unhealthy for the player skill

also i think is healthy for the game to have multiple difficult due of the character you are playing: wolfg easy - wes hard

[Well-met]

Why not use a mod to lower boss hp instead?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

also the game is becoming more easy with the new weapons, recipes, etc so... i think with that you dont need 300hp, 20 speed and x2 damage

[bobdemei]

You can easily achieve huge damage with almost all the other characters if you change to Warly and make a bunch of volt goat jelly and spices.

[glooomy]

This is an extreme over-reaction. I’d say a good chunk of people do just fine with bosses alone, without Wolfgang. 

I don’t know if they should change him completely, but I do hope the trend on relying for Wolfgang for every boss fight dies down. 

7 minutes ago, chenais said:

If you nerf Wolfgang, this will force players to use cheesy techniques if they do not want to spend 2000 years worth of practice just to kill one little boss.

Wolfgang is a cheesy technique though. 

[Harrowick]

I wouldn't worry about that. Klei already touched up on this subject in the 2019(?) roadmap, where they stated they wanted to focus on making the characters fun instead of nerfing them. Look at the previous reworks, nobody has been inherently nerfed, just changed for the better.

Klei is also fantastic at listening to community feedback, so tweaks can always be made. 

[Maxil20]

1 minute ago, reichull said:

Wolfgang is a cheesy technique though. 

I’m never going to understand this. Wolfgang is a character you can choose in the game, that can use weapons, that can move, and can wear armor just like everyone else. Does he make combat significantly easier with his ~90% constant increase in damage on top of his ~25% increased speed? There is no doubt it doesn’t. Does it mean he’s cheese for being able to do this? Not really, as it’s what the devs designed him for. He might be ridiculous, but if the devs programmed him to have the perks, rather then being able to unintentionally exploit him for the perks. It’s like saying Winona using catapults is cheese because it’s additional DPS that no character can have even if it’s one of her innate perks.*

As for the post itself, I honestly really haven't experienced any extreme time it takes to prep for a boss. It might take me ~4-5 days, but that’s for the first year only, and any progressing years is going to massively reduce the time, especially once the fuelweaver is taken care of. And besides, there’s lots of interesting ways to take down bosses with a 1X damage multiplier. And if you don’t want to do that, Warly’s species can significantly aid in that, being able to hit almost Wolfgang damage with a pepper spiced volt goat chaud froid (1.8X) and easily topping it without pepper spice during the rain (2.5X without, 3X with)

*For reference, I only consider something truly cheese if there is minimal input from the player while the boss also exerts zero to minimal effort on what it’s being killed by. For instance, killing bosses like fuelweaver while being encaged in lureplants while a houndious drags it down after a player telapoofs out of the arena, or old strats of clipping onto the water to light a stack of burnables directly underneath the bee queen are what I consider cheese. I don’t consider some circumstances like bee queen catapult cheese, since the player needs to actively move around to keep the queen within range from catapults and leaving the area will likely cause bee queen to smash a bunch of the catapults. This is based on opinion, of course, which is understandable.

[glooomy]

@Maxil20 I suppose it depends on your definition of "cheesing" but..

"In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time." -stackexchange

"Using an incredibly lame and easy "no-effort" strategy within video gaming, or just in general. Has to be effortless, overpowered or just a purely try-hard and annoying way of "cheesing" an early win." -urbandictionary

In my opinion I see mighty Wolfgang as a cheese, just as using Winona's catapults for boss fights as a cheese, based on the definitions above. You still have to put in some work preparing for the fight and even during the fight, but regardless it's a cheese. Both strategies allow single players to do the fight as if there is more than one person with them. 

[Mike23Ua]

My idea of a Wolfgang Nerf is to bring his Myriad of Phobias into ACTUAL gameplay... that’s it, that’s ALL the nerfing he needs.. it doesn’t matter how much of a Strongman you are if your soft at heart and still cowardly.

Put it Simply- If Wolfgang is Scared of ONE Spider, he Suddenly isn’t going to gain the courage to take on a Momma Spider that keeps spawning babies.

Other than that- Make his Might form less reliant on eating food and more Reliant on maintaining a Half Decent diet+ a workout routine. So for example maybe he can still be mighty at a 75% full stomach- As long as he maintains the Muscle Workout.

Balance That “Nerf” with the ability to allow others to also use his Exercise gear for a Temporary Might buff as well as giving him the ability to pick up and throw his teammates when in Mighty form (he has to go into a Throwing Stance, and another player has to walk up to and hit Interact to Agree to being Thrown by him) With FUN new gameplay mechanics such as the above mentioned Throwing of Teammates & shared damage buffs.

And the end results SHOULD be a fun balanced Multiplayer friendly Wolfgang Refresh. I think?  

In the end though... it’s Entirely up to Klei what they do with him, and the ONLY thing I ask is that they remove the not so Multiplayer friendly game mechanics such as WX78 eating all the Gears.. and give each Reworked character some TEAM based abilities

Spoiler

Even characters who have ALREADY been Reworked could use this Team Work trait-

Take Willow & Winona as the examples- Willow can craft lighters that are way more durable then a common torch, (this would be even more effective if Nightmare Fuel could be used to refuel it.) 

Winonas Spotlight could be buffed to scare Batilisks away which is super useful for when bats invade base after someone unplugs a sinkhole nearby it AND because it’s literally a Huge Stage Spotlight- Would Inspire Wigfrid with additional stats and buffs when it’s shined upon her.

the TL:DR is that a Multiplayer game should focus on having Multiplayer features but without FORCING that Multiplayer down on everyone... it should be like most the bosses in the game- part of the game.. but also entirely optional as to rather you work together or not.

As someone who plays games like Smite, Paladins and Apex Legends  I can speak first hand about characters who have abilities that function well enough on their own for 1v1 encounters... but can be paired with other characters perks to make the TEAM even more formidable.

Imagine for Example if Wigfrids Rework involved some sort of heavy damage forward leaping Battle Spear Jab, (pretty much just a fancier charged attack), Wigfrid Could then have Winona’s Spotlight shine upon her for additional stat buffs AND be picked up and thrown by Wolfgang directly into the enemy with the Leaping Battle Spear Jab

I probably sound like a broken record at this point... Sorry  I just really want to see this game become a global phenomenon with great “Together” Gameplay in mind, but while keeping the game enjoyable should you choose to play “alone”.

Wendy is an EXCELLENT example of this, Abigails Flower Petal Bestowing buff effects EVERYONE.

[Maxil20]

21 minutes ago, reichull said:

-snip-

Like I said, it’s completely subjective. I usually have a limit on what I consider cheesing, but as long as it takes effort then holding down a key or specific clicking every 20-30 seconds, then I don’t feel like it’s cheesing. I don’t consider wolfgang cheesing, but a lot of people do, and I won’t understate your opinion as it’s completely valid. Wolfgang makes a ton of stuff easy to the point I don’t want to play as him, but I know people who play Wolfgang constantly and enjoy being able to fight the bosses easier, and no mechanics are at fault aside from the intended ones.

The only thing I don’t agree on is side DPS, since a lot of characters can technically have things that will make the fight as if there is more then one person. Bunnymen are popular, and Wurt has mobs that are supposed to do that (with built in anti screeching methods). While I can see it being unintentional, you have always been able to have other mobs try to fight, even if the raid boss mechanics try to stop you. Catapults are just an extreme difference, but I do consider them in a similar catagory.

As for a final note, I usually don’t try to use any unconventional strat whatsoever unless I’m completely confident I can kill the boss normally at least once as a 1X damage character. I can see how it takes some of the challenge of the boss away and how it’s not everyone’s thing, but on a world later on you usually have multiple options available to make a boss easier that you might as well use. And in some cases like the fuelweaver, killing it is important for more then one use, since aside from its powerful loot it is the only legitimate way to reset the ruins and respawn the guardian.

[chenais]

@Well-met because they remove to much of the boss hp. Like dividing by 4, 5 or even 6 is nothing compared to a simple x2 damage boost from Wolfgang.

@ArubaroBeefalo well removing the "easy level" is not good, since having more to practice is less frustrating. this is why I want Wolfgang to stay as he is, since I am someone in the process of learning to beat bosses.

@reichull Klei he is literally designed for fighting. This is normal.

 

[Sweaper]

5 minutes ago, chenais said:

@ArubaroBeefalo well removing the "easy level" is not good, since having more to practice is less frustrating. this is why I want Wolfgang to stay as he is, since I am someone in the process of learning to beat bosses.

Learn to kill them with Wilson or Wes so you can kill those with everyone else and not be stuck with only Wolf (or WX) because of his broken speed boost.

[h1mk]

'Maybe the real problem here is bosses being too tanky for solo kills

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, chenais said:

@Well-met because they remove to much of the boss hp. Like dividing by 4, 5 or even 6 is nothing compared to a simple x2 damage boost from Wolfgang.

@ArubaroBeefalo well removing the "easy level" is not good, since having more to practice is less frustrating. this is why I want Wolfgang to stay as he is, since I am someone in the process of learning to beat bosses.

@reichull Klei he is literally designed for fighting. This is normal.

 

my longest world is with wolfg for that reason i can see how stupid is the character so i want him to be nerfed but at the same times is good to have an easy mode

[Terra B Welch]

Honestly I can't wait for the day the meta trinity gets reworked.

I used to play WX until I found out about the Meta Trinity, I ended up abandoning that robot after. Now I refuse to play Wolfgang, Wickerbottom or WX78 due to the fact that I do not want to play this oversaturated meta trinity.

I honestly don't care if others play them, play who you want to play, it's just I personally won't play them.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Terra M Welch said:

Honestly I can't wait for the day the meta trinity gets reworked.

I used to play WX until I found out about the Meta Trinity, I ended up abandoning that robot after. Now I refuse to play Wolfgang, Wickerbottom or WX78 due to the fact that I do not want to play this oversaturated meta trinity.

I honestly don't care if others play them, play who you want to play, it's just I personally won't play them.

 

what meta? they are good characters but there is no meta. Stop comparing this with a moba

[GenomeSquirrel]

 

1 minute ago, Blunderbuss said:

'Maybe the real problem here is bosses being too tanky for solo kills

The counter argument is that the bosses themselves are mostly irrelevant, they’ll ignore you if you ignore them, the drops certainly aren’t enough to make Wes into a Wolfgang or Wolfgang into a super Wolfgang.

[h1mk]

1 minute ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

 

The counter argument is that the bosses themselves are mostly irrelevant, they’ll ignore you if you ignore them, the drops certainly aren’t enough to make Wes into a Wolfgang or Wolfgang into a super Wolfgang.

what if some items did stuff to buff damage but there was a cap?

like, it cant stack on mighty wolfgang because limit is 2x damage

[Pelontriques]

klei nerf wolfgang pls

[GenomeSquirrel]

Just now, Blunderbuss said:

what if some items did stuff to buff damage but there was a cap?

like, it cant stack on mighty wolfgang because limit is 2x damage

What if is also irrelevant because it’s in a fictional context, it doesn’t matter in the game we’re playing, there’s no sign that it might exist, if anything goat jello shows developers going in the other direction.

[h1mk]

7 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

What if is also irrelevant because it’s in a fictional context, it doesn’t matter in the game we’re playing, there’s no sign that it might exist, if anything goat jello shows developers going in the other direction.

What if I am not arguing with you, or I am just giving potential solutions that would improve the game?

[Moonatik]

1 hour ago, reichull said:

@Maxil20 I suppose it depends on your definition of "cheesing" but..

"In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time." -stackexchange

"Using an incredibly lame and easy "no-effort" strategy within video gaming, or just in general. Has to be effortless, overpowered or just a purely try-hard and annoying way of "cheesing" an early win." -urbandictionary

In my opinion I see mighty Wolfgang as a cheese, just as using Winona's catapults for boss fights as a cheese, based on the definitions above. You still have to put in some work preparing for the fight and even during the fight, but regardless it's a cheese. Both strategies allow single players to do the fight as if there is more than one person with them. 

The thing is: No matter who you choose, Wolfgang or Wilson, we'll fight the deerclop or the bearger with the same strat, hit and kite. Wilson will hit more times, but the skill asked for that is the same. Catapults is even another "problem". But all the movements I'll do with Wilson, I'll do the same with Wolf. Shorter, but shorter doesn't have to be seen as a cheese. Or the non cheese could be fighting with fist only.

[GenomeSquirrel]

Just now, Blunderbuss said:

What if I am not arguing with you, or I am just giving potential solutions that would improve the game?

I don’t see anyway of balancing Wolfgang without touching his speed or speed requirement myself, I see the boss argument as a mix of smoke and mirrors and entitlement. I’m fine with his damage output.

[Casm]

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

Why not use a mod to lower boss hp instead?

^ this. When playing solo, you can use a mod that brings the health of mobs/bosses down to regular Don't Starve levels. There's no shame in playing the game the way you want, just as long as you're having fun!