[POLL] Should Food Poisoning Make Dupes Vomit Again?

[lunazone]

I believe it should because at the moment I see it as a small debuff that's easily negatable.

[Coolthulhu]

It's not a big deal against good players who know how to avoid contamination - those only suffer extra tedium of mopping. Sometimes this means mopping the vomit from the bottom of the water pool.

It is harmful against noobs who already have a steep learning curve to climb.

Tedious for everyone, only hard for noobs = bad for the game.

[Cypher-7]

Spoiler

5 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

It's not a big deal against good players who know how to avoid contamination - those only suffer extra tedium of mopping. Sometimes this means mopping the vomit from the bottom of the water pool.

It is harmful against noobs who already have a steep learning curve to climb.

Tedious for everyone, only hard for noobs = bad for the game.

 

Reading this just changed my mind on this vote. You make a good point.

[bobucles]

I prefer the idea of keeping many minor obstacles in the game. A single minor problem is an annoyance, but 5-10 minor problems stacked together can quickly become deadly.

[Coolthulhu]

10 minutes ago, bobucles said:

I prefer the idea of keeping many minor obstacles in the game. A single minor problem is an annoyance, but 5-10 minor problems stacked together can quickly become deadly.

To the new players. At 50+ hours, the problems have to be hard to avoid for it to really work.

And food poisoning is easy to avoid by washing hands and frying mush bars, meaning it only really hits new players and semi-new players who miscalculated food production and need a lot of mush bars to avoid starvation. If you never get food poisoning vomit/"making a mess", it won't spread to your water and so lice bars will be safe.

New players already have a lot to deal with, like learning the pipes and balancing oxygen production with heat on farms.

Good players aren't challenged by food poisoning in any real way, not even under pressure. If they were, they'd add pneumatic doors to water basins to exclude food-poisoned dupes so that they don't vomit into food water, easily (but tediously, as the door would have to be reconfigured manually) defeating most of the "challenge".

[Neviiir]

I would love to see it as an increased difficulty option

[OxCD]

As said above, a single mistake and they could easily vomit into your clean water tank. Then you'll bring food poisoning all along the game beginning with you. (Exactly same symptoms if they pee into).

The beginning of this game do not need to be harder I think. 

If vomiting should be added, why not linking it to slimelung, or zombie spores, or another new one, to eventually challenge mid-game.

[Yoma_Nosme]

Oh vomitopia!

Those where the days! No slush geysers needed...you made your own! Feed them bad food and lock 'em inside a room.

I know it sounds awful but this was maybe the most fun oni playtime ever.

[Grimgaw]

3 hours ago, OxCD said:

As said above, a single mistake and they could easily vomit into your clean water tank.

Germ free clean water matters in very few cases.

[bobucles]

8 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

food poisoning is easy to avoid by washing hands and frying mush bars,

The problem with the OP is that vomiting creates more food poisoning and spreads it randomly. So after the first infection, it very quickly falls into the water supply, gets into the food supply, and now everyone has a little vomit in their food. A single infection turns into a complete pandemic with distressing ease.

On normal difficulty, no. Absolutely not. On hard difficulty, maybe. I think every disease should be annoying in normal mode, enough annoyances can still kill a colony. The disastrous mechanics belong to hard mode disease settings.

[OxCD]

1 hour ago, Grimgaw said:

Germ free clean water matters in very few cases.

Mmmh. Isn't cooking with germy water makes germy food ? 

Or isn't toilet and sink going to gather more germ ? And the shower... ?

[Coolthulhu]

27 minutes ago, bobucles said:

The problem with the OP is that vomiting creates more food poisoning and spreads it randomly. So after the first infection, it very quickly falls into the water supply

Only if the player doesn't know how to prevent the spread, which is easy, as I described in the post you're quoting. Again: this only affects new or careless players and a good player will have sure-fire methods to work around food poisoning without spending non-negligible resources on it.

12 minutes ago, OxCD said:

Mmmh. Isn't cooking with germy water makes germy food ?

You can fry mush bars which kills all germs. Lice bars are the only food that can't be easily disinfected. Tofu takes water, but if you have tofu, you have chlorine and at this point disinfection is trivial.

Outside food, the only way germy water gets on dupes is when they operate certain machinery with germy water. Sieves drop germy dirt and refineries become germy if used with germy water.

[bobucles]

7 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Only if the player doesn't know how to prevent the spread, which is easy, as I described in the post you're quoting. Again: this only affects new or careless players and a good player will have sure-fire methods to work around food poisoning without spending non-negligible resources on it.

Mechanics that only hurt new players aren't good mechanics.

There's two major leverage points towards disease control in ONI. The first is to control the spread of germs. This mostly comes down to base design. If there are no germs, dupes can't get sick. If there are germs then dupes will always eventually get sick. It doesn't really matter what the difficulty says and in this regard it's not a very good difficulty lever.

The other leverage point is the disease SEVERITY, and disease severity has been changing all the time. Fatal slimelung was a great difficulty setting for hard bases, but it was too destructive for normal mode. Vomit food poisoning was also good, but once again is too severe for casual play. This is exactly the sort of trait that difficulty settings should be changing.

If dupes are at risk of getting sick, they're going to get sick. It's inevitable regardless of infection rate. What does matter is the price the colony pays after the duplicant gets sick. If a disease doesn't do much damage, the difficulty is low. If a disease flash fires through the colony, requires immediate treatment and risks killing dupes, the difficulty is high. That's great for difficulty settings. So if players want deadly germs, let them pick japanese flu germs.

[Ambaire]

10 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

It's not a big deal against good players who know how to avoid contamination - those only suffer extra tedium of mopping. Sometimes this means mopping the vomit from the bottom of the water pool.

It is harmful against noobs who already have a steep learning curve to climb.

Tedious for everyone, only hard for noobs = bad for the game.

You could say this about pretty much every system currently implemented. At what point do you stop removing stuff?

[nakomaru]

I'd like for it to cause vomiting if it's about the same effect as not finding a toilet in time. It wouldn't have to necessarily occur with every infection. Some reasons:

• The challenge of problem solving is what makes ONI a great game.
• It's not very devastating.
• It can't be entirely ignored like current food poisoning.
• It is a problem you can learn to solve.
• It is obvious to the player what the source of the problem is.

That said, it would be even more awesome if we could set permanent mop locations to deal with the hassle associated with this, but I'm not sure about how to implement it in a balanced way. I'd be happy if I could just auto mop my atmosuit checkpoint area in case of accidents. Maybe an autosweeper upgrade.

[Duplo52]

I still want Slimelung to kill again. I haven't had a reason to care about sickness since the Germs restructure. At least before I made sure they rested and used the system. So unless something changed in release branch that I haven't seen since I'm not on it I still want this. Vomiting from food poisoning is take it or leave it for me.

[rafker]

12 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

It's not a big deal against good players who know how to avoid contamination - those only suffer extra tedium of mopping. Sometimes this means mopping the vomit from the bottom of the water pool.

It is harmful against noobs who already have a steep learning curve to climb.

Tedious for everyone, only hard for noobs = bad for the game.

It assumes dupes vomiting on the spot
why not just give the dupe the ability to actually try to find nearest toilet/random spot to vomit, like one would actually do in the same situation?

[Coolthulhu]

1 hour ago, Ambaire said:

You could say this about pretty much every system currently implemented. At what point do you stop removing stuff?

At the point it works and it can't be trivially but tediously worked around. Oxygen production is there, heat is nearly there, calories are there before tedious wildfarming setup, steel production is there.

Vomiting dupes are about as fun as flatulent ones. So not fun at all.

1 hour ago, Duplo52 said:

I still want Slimelung to kill again. I haven't had a reason to care about sickness since the Germs restructure.

It does kill, just not directly. Slimelung dupes are at risk of dying from suffocation.

The problem with new germs isn't that they don't hit hard, it's that they rarely result in disease. In my 15+ dupe colonies, no more than 3 dupes get ill at any time and I'm not paranoid about germs. Spamming deodorizers is not paranoia.

35 minutes ago, rafker said:

It assumes dupes vomiting on the spot
why not just give the dupe the ability to actually try to find nearest toilet/random spot to vomit, like one would actually do in the same situation?

That's better than having to manually exclude them from water areas, but it makes the whole thing rather pointless. It would be just another visit to toilet per cycle or so.

[Ambaire]

9 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Vomiting dupes are about as fun as flatulent ones. So not fun at all.

Vomiting dupes inspire one to figure out why they're doing that and what they did wrong. Flatulent ones are funny and an interesting / mostly harmless side effect. As long as they're not a farmer and they stay away from the farm, it doesn't matter.

If klei would change plants to ignore a random pico tile of other gas, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

[xialeth]

I was absolutely set on "Yes, it should make a return" because I'm mostly ignoring it rn (... my dupes get medicine if they do contract food poisoning, so I'm not caring as much as I probably should), but the argument that the game is hard enough when picking it up for the first time (which is definitely true) is something I relate to.

I've owned it for a while now, but I only really got into it recently, hence I have limited experience with vomit reaction to food poisoning...

[Gurgel]

13 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

It's not a big deal against good players who know how to avoid contamination - those only suffer extra tedium of mopping. Sometimes this means mopping the vomit from the bottom of the water pool.

It is harmful against noobs who already have a steep learning curve to climb.

Tedious for everyone, only hard for noobs = bad for the game.

Hmm. But it is funny and it makes the dupes look more like individuals with problems that sometimes need direct solutions. But your point is not wrong and definitely something to take into account. 

[Mariilyn]

I think it should make dupes vomit and cause a calorie loss on top of that. But the severity of these symptoms should be proportionate to the amount of germ exposure. Unfortunately food poisoning and slimelung can be easily ignored right now. 

[Guinaro]

Food Poisoning should have a more severe effect on the dupes.

But not by vomitting where they stand as that for me is part of the stress reaction.

My take on Food Poisoning.
To be noticeable and having averse effect on colony life.
Normal Difficulty:
Dupes stay in bed for a full cycle. Still go to the toilet and eat only when hungry (below 1000 calories). Effect: loss of dupe time!

Harder Difficulty:
Idem + Double calories drain (2000 - 3000 with increase metabolism trait) (body has fever and needs extra calories to burn). Result increase Food Consumption afterwards.
When eating: trigger a vomit or diarhea run to the toilet (So bonus polluted water, via your toilet when they could make it in time, otherwise on the floor wherever they ended up on route to the toilet) (This makes it still manageable to prevent dupes from vomitting or making a mess in your water supply if you took apropriate measures!)

Hardest Difficulty:
Idem + Dupes cannot eat at all. Possible cause of death! If dupe was below 2000 - 3000 calories to begin with. Make sure your dupes are well fed!

 

[Gurgel]

40 minutes ago, Mariilyn said:

I think it should make dupes vomit and cause a calorie loss on top of that. But the severity of these symptoms should be proportionate to the amount of germ exposure. Unfortunately food poisoning and slimelung can be easily ignored right now. 

Would also make the vitamin pills a lot more relevant.

[Guinaro]

2 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Would also make the vitamin pills a lot more relevant.

Indeed! I don't bother with the apothecary at all at the moment. Illness is by and large of no consequence in the game!
Illness at the default difficulties should slow colony life down. And only in extreme cases be the cause of death when left untreated!
But on harder difficulties. The chance of untreated illness resulting in death should be much higher!
On hardest: untreated illness should nearly always result in death.